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If you want an in depth exploration of this I recommend "The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else" by Hernando de

If you want an in depth exploration of this I recommend "The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else" by Hernando de Soto (the economist, not the explorer) The basics: Corruption and lack of property rights lead to poverty.

kingkongrevenge 18y ago
"A Farewell to Alms" convinced me. But you're not going to see its conclusions widely repeated because it basically boils down to eugenic and dysgenic forces.
jimbokun 18y ago
"Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else" When was this written? I do not think that China, Korea, Taiwan, India, Japan can be considered part of "the West," and they are certainly employing capitalism to great advantage.
- huherto 18y ago
  2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_(economist) In the book he focuses in the third world and countries just out of communism. It is a very interesting work worth reading.
paddy_m 18y ago
I did a report on that in an economics class. I explained how there are extra legal businesses that exist in all of these countries, they are extra legal because becoming legal is impossible if not overly expensive. Then I asked the class, who here supports child labor laws? Most people raised there hands. Then I said your all wrong. I ran an extra legal business in the US. It was extra legal because I was 14, mowing lawns, had I followed the rule of law I would have been deprived of business operating opportunity.
- geebee 18y ago
  Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? I wonder if there's an exemption, or if this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. I like your term "extra legal." You may be right - that to truly comply with the law (ie., pay taxes, register as a business, and so forth), it's functionally impossible for a 14 year old to mow lawns for cash. I completely disagree with your take on child labor laws. I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns.
  - llimllib 18y ago
    > Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? Certainly. > this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. Also true. > I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns. But the question is, do you support blanket bans on child labor? You clearly support workplace safety legislation, but that's completely irrelevant here. The question is about bans on child labor.
    - Retric 18y ago
      blanket bans on child labor? there is not a blanket ban on child labor. Also while everyone needs to pay taxes there is no need to establish a business in the US. However, setting up a business increases the owners legal protections so it's a good idea. In specific cases children as young as 2 can work think TV / movies. The limit on child labor has to do with the numbers of hours worked and the type of work being done. And this depends on state and local laws. If you read up on child labor it's surprisingly flexible and is primary designed to promote children going to school, limit the numbers of hours worked, and avoid dangerous situations. PS: http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm A few highlights at the federal level: There are 17 Hazardous Orders pertaining to all industries (other than agriculture) that forbid children under age 18 from doing any of the following jobs. 9. Mining, other than coal mining. So you can still mine coal. Minimum Age for Non-hazardous Work A child of age 10 or 11 may work as a hand-harvest laborer for no more than 8 weeks in a year. For older children "In agriculture, the only restriction on hours of employment is that children cannot work during school hours." "There are no work hours limitations for 16- and 17-year-olds." 14 year olds "cannot work more than 3 hours on a school day or more than 18 hours in a school week, or more than 8 hours on a non-school day or more than 40 hours in a non-school week." So depending on how dangerous your mowing business was and how many hours a week your worked there was probably nothing wrong. You would have also needed to be making over minimum wage but this is reduced to 4.25 "for your first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer."
alecco 18y ago
You mean like in those places where there are western multi-billion oil extraction operations besides towns without running water? Yeah, it must be the locals don't understand property rights. Yeah.
- aaronblohowiak 18y ago
  It is interesting that you did not address 'corruption', which seems the obvious explanation for the phenomena you observed.
  - alecco 18y ago
    Yeah, you have to pity those mega-corporations being forced to give money to corrupt governments. Yeah.
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
Also "The Culture Cult" by Roger Sandall. Sandall makes the case that private property rights are the "deep ditch" that separate civilization from tribes. I'd add "contract law" to that, as private property rests on being able to move, trade, buy, and sell that property in a safe manner.

kingkongrevenge 18y ago

"A Farewell to Alms" convinced me. But you're not going to see its conclusions widely repeated because it basically boils down to eugenic and dysgenic forces.

jimbokun 18y ago

"Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else" When was this written? I do not think that China, Korea, Taiwan, India, Japan can be considered part of "the West," and they are certainly employing capitalism to great advantage.

huherto 18y ago
2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_(economist) In the book he focuses in the third world and countries just out of communism. It is a very interesting work worth reading.

paddy_m 18y ago

I did a report on that in an economics class. I explained how there are extra legal businesses that exist in all of these countries, they are extra legal because becoming legal is impossible if not overly expensive. Then I asked the class, who here supports child labor laws? Most people raised there hands. Then I said your all wrong. I ran an extra legal business in the US. It was extra legal because I was 14, mowing lawns, had I followed the rule of law I would have been deprived of business operating opportunity.

geebee 18y ago
Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? I wonder if there's an exemption, or if this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. I like your term "extra legal." You may be right - that to truly comply with the law (ie., pay taxes, register as a business, and so forth), it's functionally impossible for a 14 year old to mow lawns for cash. I completely disagree with your take on child labor laws. I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns.
- llimllib 18y ago
  > Is it really illegal for a 14 year old to make money mowing lawns in the US without paying taxes or establishing a business? Certainly. > this is just handled by gov't looking the other way. Also true. > I can support the laws that banned using children to climb into hard to reach areas in coal mines without supporting onerous restrictions on mowing lawns. But the question is, do you support blanket bans on child labor? You clearly support workplace safety legislation, but that's completely irrelevant here. The question is about bans on child labor.
  - Retric 18y ago
    blanket bans on child labor? there is not a blanket ban on child labor. Also while everyone needs to pay taxes there is no need to establish a business in the US. However, setting up a business increases the owners legal protections so it's a good idea. In specific cases children as young as 2 can work think TV / movies. The limit on child labor has to do with the numbers of hours worked and the type of work being done. And this depends on state and local laws. If you read up on child labor it's surprisingly flexible and is primary designed to promote children going to school, limit the numbers of hours worked, and avoid dangerous situations. PS: http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm http://www.stopchildlabor.org/USchildlabor/fact1.htm A few highlights at the federal level: There are 17 Hazardous Orders pertaining to all industries (other than agriculture) that forbid children under age 18 from doing any of the following jobs. 9. Mining, other than coal mining. So you can still mine coal. Minimum Age for Non-hazardous Work A child of age 10 or 11 may work as a hand-harvest laborer for no more than 8 weeks in a year. For older children "In agriculture, the only restriction on hours of employment is that children cannot work during school hours." "There are no work hours limitations for 16- and 17-year-olds." 14 year olds "cannot work more than 3 hours on a school day or more than 18 hours in a school week, or more than 8 hours on a non-school day or more than 40 hours in a non-school week." So depending on how dangerous your mowing business was and how many hours a week your worked there was probably nothing wrong. You would have also needed to be making over minimum wage but this is reduced to 4.25 "for your first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer."

alecco 18y ago

You mean like in those places where there are western multi-billion oil extraction operations besides towns without running water? Yeah, it must be the locals don't understand property rights. Yeah.

aaronblohowiak 18y ago
It is interesting that you did not address 'corruption', which seems the obvious explanation for the phenomena you observed.
- alecco 18y ago
  Yeah, you have to pity those mega-corporations being forced to give money to corrupt governments. Yeah.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

Also "The Culture Cult" by Roger Sandall. Sandall makes the case that private property rights are the "deep ditch" that separate civilization from tribes. I'd add "contract law" to that, as private property rests on being able to move, trade, buy, and sell that property in a safe manner.