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So far in this thread nobody wants to believe the headline/article, and these are the leading reasons: 1. Citizens must be relying on wood instead and that's b

So far in this thread nobody wants to believe the headline/article, and these are the leading reasons: 1. Citizens must be relying on wood instead and that's bad for the air 2. This doesn't cover ALL possible energy use, including petroleum powered vehicles (despite the fact that this wasn't in question) 3. Germany tried this and failed Lets look at the claims from the article: "In the three months to end-September 2023, the South American nation generated all of its electricity from renewable sources" Note that it says "electricity" not "power" Wood Burning and Petroleum Burning, for home heating and agriculture respectively are unrelated to "electricity generation" in this context so this article and the do not cover all possible forms of heat exchange and power generation It is unambiguously good that Uruguay has shown it can replace the use of fossil fuel in it's core energy infrastructure with non-imported, low carbon energy production. This is an unambiguously good news story, there's no reason to try and prove this wrong and doing so only makes you come off as an acerbic pedant, who doesn't want progress unless its perfect and all at once.

adolph 3y ago
Agreed. What Uruguay is doing is interesting and worthy of further study. The linked podcast with transcript linked below goes into more detail about how long it took to build up the program, private/public partnerships, how expected consumer savings are partly negated by expanded usage. There are a lot of moving pieces. In 2008 Ramón Méndez Galain, a particle physicist with no experience in government, was appointed Director of Energy for Uruguay and proceeded to reimagine the country’s electricity grid. In less than a decade, Méndez’s energy transition plan succeeded in freeing the country’s power sector from its growing reliance on imported oil, and achieved energy independence through a diverse electricity mix, approaching 100% renewables. https://kleinmanenergy.upenn.edu/podcast/how-uruguay-went-almost-completely-fossil-fuel-free/ https://kleinmanenergy.upenn.edu/podcast/how-uruguay-went-al...
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  He also did a TED talk. https://www.ted.com/talks/ramon_mendez_galain_this_country_runs_on_98_percent_renewable_electricity https://www.ted.com/talks/ramon_mendez_galain_this_country_r... ("TED: This country runs on 98 percent renewable electricity")
toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/UY?wind=false&solar=false https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/UY?wind=false&solar=fal... (ElectricityMaps: Uruguay) Tangentially, Paraguay runs entirely on hydropower from the Itaipu dam, which also provides a substantial amount of power to Brazil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Paraguay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Paraguay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itaipu_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itaipu_Dam (if you know someone at the org who runs the Itaipu dam [https://www.itaipu.gov.br/ https://www.itaipu.gov.br/], please have them reach out to ElectricityMaps to get that generation data on the map with a data source that can be parsed; last time I checked, they just had a broken PHP page that stopped counting total lifetime generation [https://www.itaipu.gov.br/sites/default/files/dado_op/dadosin.php https://www.itaipu.gov.br/sites/default/files/dado_op/dadosi...])
- akjshdfkjhs 3y ago
  Itaipu is mostly considered a brazillian infrastructure. Brazil paid for most of the construction, which is why they negotiated very good deals on the agreement with paraguay, which is the size of a brazillian municipality. They pay like $20 per Kw instead of the $400 the market would pay. the deal is up now btw, so the media is covering paraguay attempt to renegotiate it.
  - cesarb 3y ago
    > Paraguay, which is the size of a brazillian municipality. That's understating that country's size a lot; it's the size of a Brazilian state, not a Brazilian municipality (even if you consider the huge municipalities in the Amazon region).
    - skellington 3y ago
      He's talking about population, not physical size.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
mandmandam 3y ago
> there's no reason to try and prove this wrong Well, there is one reason: If Uruguay can do it, then it clearly demonstrates how blitheringly incompetent Western leaders are. It shows how horrifically pointless our oil wars have been (outside of making the instigators even wealthier), and nullifies each and every bullshit argument of the fossil fuel industry completely. Some numbers: Uruguay has $20k GDP per capita, compared to the US' $76k - basically a quarter of the wealth.
- paiute 3y ago
  Hydro power… it’s like 50% of their power. Then wind, then biomass, then solar.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    China has deployed more wind power this year than the UK's total aggregate generation capacity, and double US total aggregate solar generation. Yes, South America has a substantial amount of existing hydro power, but this is no excuse for developed world laggards. It is a choice to prioritize oil, gas, and other fossil fuel subsidies and infra support, but it is hopeless with global EV and renewables manufacturing flywheels coming up to speed (China is selling ~1 million EVs per month as of 2023Q4, solar PV manufacturing will reach 1TW next year). Just as Tesla (and BYD in China, credit where credit due) was the underdog and "David" until they rocketed passed legacy auto and became "Goliath", the same will happen to clean energy vs fossil tech. Like a recession, you're not going to be able to call it until looking back at trailing indicators. https://www.iea.org/reports/renewable-energy-market-update-june-2023/is-there-enough-global-wind-and-solar-pv-manufacturing-to-meet-net-zero-targets-in-2030 https://www.iea.org/reports/renewable-energy-market-update-j... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/13/chinas-carbon-emissions-set-for-structural-decline-from-next-year https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/13/chinas-carb... > The most striking growth has been in solar power, according to Myllyvirta. Solar installations increased by 210 gigawatts (GW) this year alone, which is twice the total solar capacity of the US and four times what China added in 2020. > The analysis, which is based on official figures and commercial data, found that China installed 70GW of wind power this year – more than the entire power generation capacity of the UK. It is also expected to add 7GW of hydro power and 3GW of nuclear power capacity this year, said the report. https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-emissions-set-to-fall-in-2024-after-record-growth-in-clean-energy/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-emissions-set-to... > China’s carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions are set to fall in 2024 and could be facing structural decline, due to record growth in the installation of new low-carbon energy sources. (my note: pedal to the floor, no one ever said "we have too much clean energy!")
timmaxw 3y ago
If Uruguay can run on 100% renewable energy, the unstated implication is "The US could do it too, we just lack the political will". (As opposed to the idea that "Renewable energy is a genuinely hard problem that will take time, effort, and technological advances to solve.") The implication that "we just lack the political will" can feel like a criticism of anyone who's not maximally-environmentalist. I think that's why people are getting defensive about it.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  At no point in the article is that claim made.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- aoeusnth1 3y ago
  Everything you just said may be true, but it’s also true that the US does lack the political will.
  - taylodl 3y ago
    It's impossible to solve difficult problems without the will to do so.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      The will do to do so is frequently more easily accessed when the problems are recognized as more tractable than previously thought.
aftbit 3y ago
I think the problem is that the headline claims they are "Energy Independent", but when you drill down, it's only electricity that is being affected. Energy independence usually refers to other kinds of energy as well, including petroleum powered vehicles. Well and of course people love to hate on renewables. Will this be 12 months in a year? Or are they returning to power generation via petroleum?
- locallost 3y ago
  That's fair, but electrification is the stated goal of all of the world. The article states they reduced their production costs by half, and although I didn't see actual numbers I tend to believe it. So it looks to me that Uruguay has people in charge that get it, and also now have results. There is no going back for them and they'll make progress very fast. People underestimate the long term effect of cheap renewables - you invest in them and save money long term, which you again invest in renewables. It's basically like compound interest.
cesarvarela 3y ago
Uruguayan here. Point 1 is wrong. The average Uruguayan house doesn't have the means to heat using wood. I think we can do it because we have a small population, almost no industry, and neither summers nor winters get to extreme temperatures.
- brucethemoose2 3y ago
  That doesn't make it any less impressive. If a small industrial base can builds its own renewable infrastructure, then a larger, proportionally richer base should have less trouble doing it.
  - kuhewa 3y ago
    In terms of ease and industrial base required it seems to me much will come down to how much of the renewable generation is hydro (and how much is possible given an area's hydrology) since that is so much 'easier' than modern renewables. That's largely orthogonal to wealth/population/industrial capacity. Although I suppose greater industrialisation and wealth would increase energy demand per capita. In the US it is 6%. For Uruguay electricity is 37% hydro. It is still impressive though. I reckon biomass is 'easy' as well but it is only so scalable.
    - brucethemoose2 3y ago
      Neither is very sexy because of hydro's environmental issues (and in some cases water supply inefficiency), and biomass burning being... biomass burning. The US has a lot of nuclear which I would call "renewable enough," and that's not very sexy either.
- dhoe 3y ago
  45% percent of households use wood as the main source of heating, electricity is 24%. https://www.ambito.com/uruguay/con-el-precio-la-lena-aumento-como-se-calefaccionan-los-hogares-n5724281 https://www.ambito.com/uruguay/con-el-precio-la-lena-aumento... And obviously this reduces the consumption of electricity, making it easier to cover the electricity needed with renewables. Doesn't take anything away from it, it's still great that this is happening.
atypicaluser 3y ago
> nobody wants to believe the headline/article Look at the headline— "'Energy independent' Uruguay runs on 100% renewables for four straight months" and the article's very first sentence— "Renewables alone have powered the Uruguayan economy for nearly four straight months." versus the quote you use (the second sentence of the article)— "In the three months to end-September 2023, the South American nation generated all of its electricity from renewable sources" Both the headline and the first sentence are misleading. The writer did this on purpose. My guess is it's because he (Nick Hedley) likely knows that many (most?) people reading the headline won't go past that first sentence and will come away with a false sense of what really happened. Couldn't he have instead spread the good news with "Energy independent Uruguay runs its electrical grid on 100% renewables for four straight months"? How is asking for upfront honesty being an acerbic pedant?
- forgetfreeman 3y ago
  Proving OP's point in 3....2....1....
  - atypicaluser 3y ago
    It appears I have to explain myself better. You've heard the phrase "read the room"? The OP added this article to HN, a site known for its detail-oriented minds (programmers, engineers, technicians, etc.) or, if you prefer another insult, "rules lawyers". And then someone complains that these same detail-oriented folks find that some of the details in the article are lacking? And tries shaming them into giving up their detail-oriented ways? Odd flex.
    - kristopolous 3y ago
      The issue is some people are quick to dismiss progress especially on technologies with political salience.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      > a site known for its detail-oriented minds a site known for a commentariat that is, in aggregate, frequently wrong about details, particularly details that matter. yes, it's great when people who really know what they are writing about show up here. But the great unwashed masses in the comment threads, for all of their fabled "detail-oriented minds" appear wrong at least as often as they are right. "On the internet nobody knows you're an HN commenter with 3 years of JS experience".
ineptech 3y ago
And, > In just five years, $6 billion was invested in renewable energy — the equivalent of 12% of Uruguay’s GDP. Any country that invests 12% of its GDP in something over five years is probably going to produce some impressive results!
Archelaos 3y ago
> 3. Germany tried this and failed Absolute nonsense. So far Germany never attempted to run 100% renewable for four months straight. To learn about the German government’s energy plans see for example here: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/climate-protection-energy-policy-in-germany https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/clim... And here are the actual figures: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/renewable-energies/renewable-energies-in-figures https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/rene... And here is a detailed report about the situation in 2021 (pdf): https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/479/publikationen/uba_hg_erneuerbareenergien_engl.pdf https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/47...

adolph 3y ago

Agreed. What Uruguay is doing is interesting and worthy of further study. The linked podcast with transcript linked below goes into more detail about how long it took to build up the program, private/public partnerships, how expected consumer savings are partly negated by expanded usage. There are a lot of moving pieces. In 2008 Ramón Méndez Galain, a particle physicist with no experience in government, was appointed Director of Energy for Uruguay and proceeded to reimagine the country’s electricity grid. In less than a decade, Méndez’s energy transition plan succeeded in freeing the country’s power sector from its growing reliance on imported oil, and achieved energy independence through a diverse electricity mix, approaching 100% renewables. https://kleinmanenergy.upenn.edu/podcast/how-uruguay-went-almost-completely-fossil-fuel-free/ https://kleinmanenergy.upenn.edu/podcast/how-uruguay-went-al...

toomuchtodo 3y ago
He also did a TED talk. https://www.ted.com/talks/ramon_mendez_galain_this_country_runs_on_98_percent_renewable_electricity https://www.ted.com/talks/ramon_mendez_galain_this_country_r... ("TED: This country runs on 98 percent renewable electricity")

toomuchtodo 3y ago

https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/UY?wind=false&solar=false https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/UY?wind=false&solar=fal... (ElectricityMaps: Uruguay) Tangentially, Paraguay runs entirely on hydropower from the Itaipu dam, which also provides a substantial amount of power to Brazil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Paraguay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Paraguay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itaipu_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itaipu_Dam (if you know someone at the org who runs the Itaipu dam [https://www.itaipu.gov.br/ https://www.itaipu.gov.br/], please have them reach out to ElectricityMaps to get that generation data on the map with a data source that can be parsed; last time I checked, they just had a broken PHP page that stopped counting total lifetime generation [https://www.itaipu.gov.br/sites/default/files/dado_op/dadosin.php https://www.itaipu.gov.br/sites/default/files/dado_op/dadosi...])

akjshdfkjhs 3y ago
Itaipu is mostly considered a brazillian infrastructure. Brazil paid for most of the construction, which is why they negotiated very good deals on the agreement with paraguay, which is the size of a brazillian municipality. They pay like $20 per Kw instead of the $400 the market would pay. the deal is up now btw, so the media is covering paraguay attempt to renegotiate it.
- cesarb 3y ago
  > Paraguay, which is the size of a brazillian municipality. That's understating that country's size a lot; it's the size of a Brazilian state, not a Brazilian municipality (even if you consider the huge municipalities in the Amazon region).
  - skellington 3y ago
    He's talking about population, not physical size.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

mandmandam 3y ago

> there's no reason to try and prove this wrong Well, there is one reason: If Uruguay can do it, then it clearly demonstrates how blitheringly incompetent Western leaders are. It shows how horrifically pointless our oil wars have been (outside of making the instigators even wealthier), and nullifies each and every bullshit argument of the fossil fuel industry completely. Some numbers: Uruguay has $20k GDP per capita, compared to the US' $76k - basically a quarter of the wealth.

paiute 3y ago
Hydro power… it’s like 50% of their power. Then wind, then biomass, then solar.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  China has deployed more wind power this year than the UK's total aggregate generation capacity, and double US total aggregate solar generation. Yes, South America has a substantial amount of existing hydro power, but this is no excuse for developed world laggards. It is a choice to prioritize oil, gas, and other fossil fuel subsidies and infra support, but it is hopeless with global EV and renewables manufacturing flywheels coming up to speed (China is selling ~1 million EVs per month as of 2023Q4, solar PV manufacturing will reach 1TW next year). Just as Tesla (and BYD in China, credit where credit due) was the underdog and "David" until they rocketed passed legacy auto and became "Goliath", the same will happen to clean energy vs fossil tech. Like a recession, you're not going to be able to call it until looking back at trailing indicators. https://www.iea.org/reports/renewable-energy-market-update-june-2023/is-there-enough-global-wind-and-solar-pv-manufacturing-to-meet-net-zero-targets-in-2030 https://www.iea.org/reports/renewable-energy-market-update-j... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/13/chinas-carbon-emissions-set-for-structural-decline-from-next-year https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/13/chinas-carb... > The most striking growth has been in solar power, according to Myllyvirta. Solar installations increased by 210 gigawatts (GW) this year alone, which is twice the total solar capacity of the US and four times what China added in 2020. > The analysis, which is based on official figures and commercial data, found that China installed 70GW of wind power this year – more than the entire power generation capacity of the UK. It is also expected to add 7GW of hydro power and 3GW of nuclear power capacity this year, said the report. https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-emissions-set-to-fall-in-2024-after-record-growth-in-clean-energy/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-chinas-emissions-set-to... > China’s carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions are set to fall in 2024 and could be facing structural decline, due to record growth in the installation of new low-carbon energy sources. (my note: pedal to the floor, no one ever said "we have too much clean energy!")

timmaxw 3y ago

If Uruguay can run on 100% renewable energy, the unstated implication is "The US could do it too, we just lack the political will". (As opposed to the idea that "Renewable energy is a genuinely hard problem that will take time, effort, and technological advances to solve.") The implication that "we just lack the political will" can feel like a criticism of anyone who's not maximally-environmentalist. I think that's why people are getting defensive about it.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
At no point in the article is that claim made.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
aoeusnth1 3y ago
Everything you just said may be true, but it’s also true that the US does lack the political will.
- taylodl 3y ago
  It's impossible to solve difficult problems without the will to do so.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    The will do to do so is frequently more easily accessed when the problems are recognized as more tractable than previously thought.

aftbit 3y ago

I think the problem is that the headline claims they are "Energy Independent", but when you drill down, it's only electricity that is being affected. Energy independence usually refers to other kinds of energy as well, including petroleum powered vehicles. Well and of course people love to hate on renewables. Will this be 12 months in a year? Or are they returning to power generation via petroleum?

locallost 3y ago
That's fair, but electrification is the stated goal of all of the world. The article states they reduced their production costs by half, and although I didn't see actual numbers I tend to believe it. So it looks to me that Uruguay has people in charge that get it, and also now have results. There is no going back for them and they'll make progress very fast. People underestimate the long term effect of cheap renewables - you invest in them and save money long term, which you again invest in renewables. It's basically like compound interest.

cesarvarela 3y ago

Uruguayan here. Point 1 is wrong. The average Uruguayan house doesn't have the means to heat using wood. I think we can do it because we have a small population, almost no industry, and neither summers nor winters get to extreme temperatures.

brucethemoose2 3y ago
That doesn't make it any less impressive. If a small industrial base can builds its own renewable infrastructure, then a larger, proportionally richer base should have less trouble doing it.
- kuhewa 3y ago
  In terms of ease and industrial base required it seems to me much will come down to how much of the renewable generation is hydro (and how much is possible given an area's hydrology) since that is so much 'easier' than modern renewables. That's largely orthogonal to wealth/population/industrial capacity. Although I suppose greater industrialisation and wealth would increase energy demand per capita. In the US it is 6%. For Uruguay electricity is 37% hydro. It is still impressive though. I reckon biomass is 'easy' as well but it is only so scalable.
  - brucethemoose2 3y ago
    Neither is very sexy because of hydro's environmental issues (and in some cases water supply inefficiency), and biomass burning being... biomass burning. The US has a lot of nuclear which I would call "renewable enough," and that's not very sexy either.
dhoe 3y ago
45% percent of households use wood as the main source of heating, electricity is 24%. https://www.ambito.com/uruguay/con-el-precio-la-lena-aumento-como-se-calefaccionan-los-hogares-n5724281 https://www.ambito.com/uruguay/con-el-precio-la-lena-aumento... And obviously this reduces the consumption of electricity, making it easier to cover the electricity needed with renewables. Doesn't take anything away from it, it's still great that this is happening.

atypicaluser 3y ago

> nobody wants to believe the headline/article Look at the headline— "'Energy independent' Uruguay runs on 100% renewables for four straight months" and the article's very first sentence— "Renewables alone have powered the Uruguayan economy for nearly four straight months." versus the quote you use (the second sentence of the article)— "In the three months to end-September 2023, the South American nation generated all of its electricity from renewable sources" Both the headline and the first sentence are misleading. The writer did this on purpose. My guess is it's because he (Nick Hedley) likely knows that many (most?) people reading the headline won't go past that first sentence and will come away with a false sense of what really happened. Couldn't he have instead spread the good news with "Energy independent Uruguay runs its electrical grid on 100% renewables for four straight months"? How is asking for upfront honesty being an acerbic pedant?

forgetfreeman 3y ago
Proving OP's point in 3....2....1....
- atypicaluser 3y ago
  It appears I have to explain myself better. You've heard the phrase "read the room"? The OP added this article to HN, a site known for its detail-oriented minds (programmers, engineers, technicians, etc.) or, if you prefer another insult, "rules lawyers". And then someone complains that these same detail-oriented folks find that some of the details in the article are lacking? And tries shaming them into giving up their detail-oriented ways? Odd flex.
  - kristopolous 3y ago
    The issue is some people are quick to dismiss progress especially on technologies with political salience.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    > a site known for its detail-oriented minds a site known for a commentariat that is, in aggregate, frequently wrong about details, particularly details that matter. yes, it's great when people who really know what they are writing about show up here. But the great unwashed masses in the comment threads, for all of their fabled "detail-oriented minds" appear wrong at least as often as they are right. "On the internet nobody knows you're an HN commenter with 3 years of JS experience".

ineptech 3y ago

And, > In just five years, $6 billion was invested in renewable energy — the equivalent of 12% of Uruguay’s GDP. Any country that invests 12% of its GDP in something over five years is probably going to produce some impressive results!

Archelaos 3y ago

> 3. Germany tried this and failed Absolute nonsense. So far Germany never attempted to run 100% renewable for four months straight. To learn about the German government’s energy plans see for example here: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/climate-protection-energy-policy-in-germany https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/clim... And here are the actual figures: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/renewable-energies/renewable-energies-in-figures https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/topics/climate-energy/rene... And here is a detailed report about the situation in 2021 (pdf): https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/479/publikationen/uba_hg_erneuerbareenergien_engl.pdf https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/47...