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You are making a very bad assumption here. You are assuming that non-acceptance of dirty cops is something inherent to American culture. Actually, if America we

You are making a very bad assumption here. You are assuming that non-acceptance of dirty cops is something inherent to American culture. Actually, if America were plunged into a huge depression, and most Americans were suddenly thrust into poverty, banks folded and so on, this 'culture' would change in less than a year. Are you going to disown the guy who is doing dirty work but keeping you alive? Corruption is not a culture, the potential for corruption is everywhere, it's in all humans. When it appears to be socially wrong, or when there is strict enforcement, then people will not be corrupt, but as soon as this changes, it comes back. It seems almost as if corruption is the default behavior, and it has to be actively forced away, and not the other way around.

jyothi 18y ago
>> It seems almost as if corruption is the default behavior, and it has to be actively forced away, and not the other way around. Great point. It is also true, as you noted, it is hard to do this in harder times, where people do become more self-centric and would not have time to bother about broader implications or society at large. That is the vicious cycle that has got set up in many poor economies. edit: A short commercial http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=FAe_bZGqU1g http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=FAe_bZGqU1g To get this mobilization going is very hard.
pm 18y ago
I would argue the default behaviour isn't corruption, it's self-preservation. Corruption is only the symptom of a deeper instinctual imperative. When the benefit of individual self-interest outweighs the benefit of communal self-interest, the individual will more often than not act selfishly.
Maktab 18y ago
I disagree. While its true that poverty and desperation drives people to contemplate things they may not have otherwise, I don't believe it as simple as saying that poverty automatically means more people will turn to corruption. There's a basic cultural element to it as well. Living in an African country, there's a far more casual and accepting approach to corruption than there is in Europe and the US. Most people here, including cops, earn enough to get by as it's far from a poor country but corruption is still endemic. Dirty cops are seldom fired when caught and are not ostracised from their families and social groups. As a result, much of the police force is corrupt, to the point where when you're pulled over for a traffic violation you expect to be asked to pay a bribe. And most people, however wealthy, are more than happy to pay one in order to avoid the admin hassle of an official fine. Oddly enough, there seems to be an attitude that corruption is your right if you've managed to get employed in certain jobs. There is no big outcry when politicians are found to have been hugely corrupt, instead the attitude amongst most of my fellow Africans who I've spoken on such occasions is that the guy was 'just taking care of himself', an action considered to be perfectly ok. The real anger usually only happens when people perceive that not enough of the public coffers is being directed their way. So there is a cultural aspect to this, and I've come to believe that the culture of many African countries, with a tolerance for corruption, bad governance and the like, is largely responsible for the continent's poor economic condition. Humans the world over may be the same, but cultures are not. Africa will not develop until its people truly decide they want development and make the necessary cultural shifts and changes to achieve it.
- markessien 18y ago
  What's with this trend of people blaming things on 'culture'. It's just a way of pushing a problem to an abstract hole. Culture is very fluid and changes very quickly. Is it African to wear jeans? To visit nightclubs? It was not, but now in many parts of the continent, it is. The guy a few comments away on this thread was complaining about the corruption in India. Is that the culture too? When I was in China, the people would complain about the corruption in the government. Is that the culture too? Is it only the richest countries in the world that have the culture to avoid corruption? What you're saying is this: - Richest countries in the world like in Europe and the U.S accept corruption less - Poorest countries in the world accept corruption more And from that, you are drawing a causal relationship, when a correlation relationship seems to be a lot more likely. There is no inherent African tendency towards corruption. Since you live in Africa, go to a village, or some other non-urban and traditional area, and see how much corruption there is there. You'll find that there will be almost none.
  - kingkongrevenge 18y ago
    > Culture is very fluid and changes very quickly Says who? You can read 200 year old travel diaries and the cultural observations are usually still right on. Culture runs deep.
  - Maktab 18y ago
    I think you're defining culture too narrowly. It's not just about wearing jeans or visiting nightclubs, it's about a shared perspective around religion, community interaction, concepts like freedom and responsibility and traditions. That kind of culture runs deep, very deep, which is part of the reason (for example) Pakistani immigrants are finding it so difficult to assimilate into the UK. They wear jeans, go to nightclubs and all the rest, but find it very difficult to break those cultural ties and perceptions. And yes, I'd argue that the same cultural flaws that make corruption acceptable in Africa are visible in Asian societies like India and China, though they are far less severe. Perhaps one could argue that they have a far more recent history of prolonged totalitarianism than the US or Western Europe; that with all the years of kings and Rajs, followed by colonialism (Mao's Communist Party in the case of China) and then socialist dictators there just has not yet been time to shift cultures enough. And I'm frequently in rural villages and settlements, yet the same cultural bias in favour of poor governance and corruption are just as visible there. Village chiefs and the heads of important families are allowed the most outrageous excesses simply by virtue of their rank and there is little anger when money gets skimmed off the top of funds coming from the outside, even when earmarked for development. I can't quite understand it. So yes, I do regard culture in some parts of the world as being a causal factor towards their countries' poor economic performance. I think economic success in this world requires a certain outlook on self interest, the shared good and work and that without that a country helps cause its own poverty. But I have no idea how to change it.
jerf 18y ago
> Actually, if America were plunged into a huge depression, and most Americans were suddenly thrust into poverty, banks folded and so on, this 'culture' would change in less than a year. America has been in a depression before. It has also had recessions, and it wasn't even rich until the twentieth century. And yet, we still hate corruption. At the risk of posting something not very Hacker-News friendly, I think the natural thing to credit is widespread Christianity in America. Whether or not you like the whole package, the impact of a huge proportion of the population believing that even if you can entirely get away with it in Earthly terms that there are still consequences for corruption probably can't be understated. In fact, I suspect that your are more right now about how the culture would change under duress than you would have been fifty years ago, and you will continue to be more right over time. Even if you don't like Christianity, it's hard to deny that there are worse dominant religions or worldviews to live under... it takes some pretty damned enlightened rationalism to resist the temptation to corruption.
- gaius 18y ago
  I think the natural thing to credit is widespread Christianity in America. Exactly the same is true of the British and Dutch colonial/trading empires.
- markessien 18y ago
  70% or more of Sub-Saharan Africa is devoutly christian. Does not seem to have helped very much.
- kingkongrevenge 18y ago
  Russians are Christian and there's a lot of corruption there. Same in South America.
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    Not sure Russia is the best example. Until very recently they were the classic Godless Communists. South America and Sub Saharan Africa (mentioned by another poster), seem to serve as viable counter-examples, though.
kingkongrevenge 18y ago
> if America were plunged into a huge depression, and most Americans were suddenly thrust into poverty, banks folded and so on, this 'culture' would change in less than a year. I don't think evidence supports this claim. The 30s saw some of the lowest crime rates in America ever. In 1800 median living standards were pretty close to the same all over the world but criminality varied a lot. Criminality and corruption are driven by culture, and possible genetics.
- netcan 18y ago
  Can you provide evidence in support of that claim? A test for culture/genetics might be found in immigrants. Particularly those that do not immigrate to big expat communities. Even those might be interesting to look at. I think you'll find that people bend quite a distance to what their environment is. I dare say American expats participate in corrupt practices. My own take on this is that corruption can hit a point where it is the system of government. It's not that dirty cops are cops that started taking bribes & then got used to it. They take the job in the first place in order to accept bribes. If you take away corruption, you take away the police. Same goes for many other elements.
yummyfajitas 18y ago
I might not disown the guy before finding another job, but I'd certainly be ashamed of it. It's not something I'd ever drop in casual conversation. Incidentally, her family was middle class by US standards. She got her first computer 2 years after I did. The point I'm making is that I don't think you can just change the government, you really need to make corruption a source of shame.
bokonist 18y ago
The homicide rate of modern Washington D.C. is 40X that of London during the great depression. Let me repeat, that's a 4,000% difference. Do you think modern Washington D.C. is 40 times poorer than depression-era London? Source: http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111....
1gor 18y ago
>non-acceptance of dirty cops is something inherent to American culture. That is exactly the case. America would not have succeeded economically without certain traits, relative immunity to corruption being one of them. In game theory a player may have two strategies - to 'cooperate' or to 'defect' (law-abiding behaviour vs corruption). It has been demonstrated that in absence of punishment the defection (corruption) may be the best strategy for an individual, even though it may be harmful for the society as a whole. Americans have developed a virtuous cycle where certainty of punishment (the society and the legal system there as a whole are relatively not corrupt) stimulates intolerance towards corruption among individuals. Remaining non-corrupt and rooting out corruption is profitable in the USA. But in an already corrupt society it may impossible for the individual to remain honest.

jyothi 18y ago

>> It seems almost as if corruption is the default behavior, and it has to be actively forced away, and not the other way around. Great point. It is also true, as you noted, it is hard to do this in harder times, where people do become more self-centric and would not have time to bother about broader implications or society at large. That is the vicious cycle that has got set up in many poor economies. edit: A short commercial http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=FAe_bZGqU1g http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=FAe_bZGqU1g To get this mobilization going is very hard.

pm 18y ago

I would argue the default behaviour isn't corruption, it's self-preservation. Corruption is only the symptom of a deeper instinctual imperative. When the benefit of individual self-interest outweighs the benefit of communal self-interest, the individual will more often than not act selfishly.

Maktab 18y ago

I disagree. While its true that poverty and desperation drives people to contemplate things they may not have otherwise, I don't believe it as simple as saying that poverty automatically means more people will turn to corruption. There's a basic cultural element to it as well. Living in an African country, there's a far more casual and accepting approach to corruption than there is in Europe and the US. Most people here, including cops, earn enough to get by as it's far from a poor country but corruption is still endemic. Dirty cops are seldom fired when caught and are not ostracised from their families and social groups. As a result, much of the police force is corrupt, to the point where when you're pulled over for a traffic violation you expect to be asked to pay a bribe. And most people, however wealthy, are more than happy to pay one in order to avoid the admin hassle of an official fine. Oddly enough, there seems to be an attitude that corruption is your right if you've managed to get employed in certain jobs. There is no big outcry when politicians are found to have been hugely corrupt, instead the attitude amongst most of my fellow Africans who I've spoken on such occasions is that the guy was 'just taking care of himself', an action considered to be perfectly ok. The real anger usually only happens when people perceive that not enough of the public coffers is being directed their way. So there is a cultural aspect to this, and I've come to believe that the culture of many African countries, with a tolerance for corruption, bad governance and the like, is largely responsible for the continent's poor economic condition. Humans the world over may be the same, but cultures are not. Africa will not develop until its people truly decide they want development and make the necessary cultural shifts and changes to achieve it.

markessien 18y ago
What's with this trend of people blaming things on 'culture'. It's just a way of pushing a problem to an abstract hole. Culture is very fluid and changes very quickly. Is it African to wear jeans? To visit nightclubs? It was not, but now in many parts of the continent, it is. The guy a few comments away on this thread was complaining about the corruption in India. Is that the culture too? When I was in China, the people would complain about the corruption in the government. Is that the culture too? Is it only the richest countries in the world that have the culture to avoid corruption? What you're saying is this: - Richest countries in the world like in Europe and the U.S accept corruption less - Poorest countries in the world accept corruption more And from that, you are drawing a causal relationship, when a correlation relationship seems to be a lot more likely. There is no inherent African tendency towards corruption. Since you live in Africa, go to a village, or some other non-urban and traditional area, and see how much corruption there is there. You'll find that there will be almost none.
- kingkongrevenge 18y ago
  > Culture is very fluid and changes very quickly Says who? You can read 200 year old travel diaries and the cultural observations are usually still right on. Culture runs deep.
- Maktab 18y ago
  I think you're defining culture too narrowly. It's not just about wearing jeans or visiting nightclubs, it's about a shared perspective around religion, community interaction, concepts like freedom and responsibility and traditions. That kind of culture runs deep, very deep, which is part of the reason (for example) Pakistani immigrants are finding it so difficult to assimilate into the UK. They wear jeans, go to nightclubs and all the rest, but find it very difficult to break those cultural ties and perceptions. And yes, I'd argue that the same cultural flaws that make corruption acceptable in Africa are visible in Asian societies like India and China, though they are far less severe. Perhaps one could argue that they have a far more recent history of prolonged totalitarianism than the US or Western Europe; that with all the years of kings and Rajs, followed by colonialism (Mao's Communist Party in the case of China) and then socialist dictators there just has not yet been time to shift cultures enough. And I'm frequently in rural villages and settlements, yet the same cultural bias in favour of poor governance and corruption are just as visible there. Village chiefs and the heads of important families are allowed the most outrageous excesses simply by virtue of their rank and there is little anger when money gets skimmed off the top of funds coming from the outside, even when earmarked for development. I can't quite understand it. So yes, I do regard culture in some parts of the world as being a causal factor towards their countries' poor economic performance. I think economic success in this world requires a certain outlook on self interest, the shared good and work and that without that a country helps cause its own poverty. But I have no idea how to change it.

jerf 18y ago

> Actually, if America were plunged into a huge depression, and most Americans were suddenly thrust into poverty, banks folded and so on, this 'culture' would change in less than a year. America has been in a depression before. It has also had recessions, and it wasn't even rich until the twentieth century. And yet, we still hate corruption. At the risk of posting something not very Hacker-News friendly, I think the natural thing to credit is widespread Christianity in America. Whether or not you like the whole package, the impact of a huge proportion of the population believing that even if you can entirely get away with it in Earthly terms that there are still consequences for corruption probably can't be understated. In fact, I suspect that your are more right now about how the culture would change under duress than you would have been fifty years ago, and you will continue to be more right over time. Even if you don't like Christianity, it's hard to deny that there are worse dominant religions or worldviews to live under... it takes some pretty damned enlightened rationalism to resist the temptation to corruption.

gaius 18y ago
I think the natural thing to credit is widespread Christianity in America. Exactly the same is true of the British and Dutch colonial/trading empires.
markessien 18y ago
70% or more of Sub-Saharan Africa is devoutly christian. Does not seem to have helped very much.
kingkongrevenge 18y ago
Russians are Christian and there's a lot of corruption there. Same in South America.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  Not sure Russia is the best example. Until very recently they were the classic Godless Communists. South America and Sub Saharan Africa (mentioned by another poster), seem to serve as viable counter-examples, though.

kingkongrevenge 18y ago

> if America were plunged into a huge depression, and most Americans were suddenly thrust into poverty, banks folded and so on, this 'culture' would change in less than a year. I don't think evidence supports this claim. The 30s saw some of the lowest crime rates in America ever. In 1800 median living standards were pretty close to the same all over the world but criminality varied a lot. Criminality and corruption are driven by culture, and possible genetics.

netcan 18y ago
Can you provide evidence in support of that claim? A test for culture/genetics might be found in immigrants. Particularly those that do not immigrate to big expat communities. Even those might be interesting to look at. I think you'll find that people bend quite a distance to what their environment is. I dare say American expats participate in corrupt practices. My own take on this is that corruption can hit a point where it is the system of government. It's not that dirty cops are cops that started taking bribes & then got used to it. They take the job in the first place in order to accept bribes. If you take away corruption, you take away the police. Same goes for many other elements.

yummyfajitas 18y ago

I might not disown the guy before finding another job, but I'd certainly be ashamed of it. It's not something I'd ever drop in casual conversation. Incidentally, her family was middle class by US standards. She got her first computer 2 years after I did. The point I'm making is that I don't think you can just change the government, you really need to make corruption a source of shame.

bokonist 18y ago

The homicide rate of modern Washington D.C. is 40X that of London during the great depression. Let me repeat, that's a 4,000% difference. Do you think modern Washington D.C. is 40 times poorer than depression-era London? Source: http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111....

1gor 18y ago

>non-acceptance of dirty cops is something inherent to American culture. That is exactly the case. America would not have succeeded economically without certain traits, relative immunity to corruption being one of them. In game theory a player may have two strategies - to 'cooperate' or to 'defect' (law-abiding behaviour vs corruption). It has been demonstrated that in absence of punishment the defection (corruption) may be the best strategy for an individual, even though it may be harmful for the society as a whole. Americans have developed a virtuous cycle where certainty of punishment (the society and the legal system there as a whole are relatively not corrupt) stimulates intolerance towards corruption among individuals. Remaining non-corrupt and rooting out corruption is profitable in the USA. But in an already corrupt society it may impossible for the individual to remain honest.