12 ms·

Why thinking hard makes us feel tired

189 points by rzk 3y ago

yamrzou 3y ago
https://archive.ph/WJCMC https://archive.ph/WJCMC
- insanitybit 3y ago
  Should probably replace the link with this, since it's actually readable.
  - theyinwhy 3y ago
    "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - insanitybit 3y ago
      OK but the original source is not accessible?
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  I swear there is a version of archive that plays nice with icloud+ relay I keep forgetting which one
- flobosg 3y ago
  The actual study, which apparently is freely accessible now because more than 12 months have passed after publication: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)01111-3 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)...
  - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
    > Obviously, our results are only correlational and cannot be taken as proof that what limits cognitive control exertion is the need to prevent glutamate accumulation. I didn't read the original story but I wonder if it included that little gem
progne 3y ago
Is glutamate : neurons :: lactic acid : muscle?
- andbberger 3y ago
  no
- adpirz 3y ago
  The lactic acid thing is a myth. https://www.bostonsportsmed.com/2013/08/the-lactic-acid-myth/ https://www.bostonsportsmed.com/2013/08/the-lactic-acid-myth...
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    >"lactic acid cannot even really exist in the body because blood pH is too neutral, (around 7) and acids require very low pH" HF, HCl, and H2SO4, to name a few acids, do not "require" low pH, they BYOpH
User23 3y ago
Because it takes energy? This is pretty well observed in high level chess[1]. [1] https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmaste...
- insanitybit 3y ago
  That hardly seems conclusive. For example, > Meanwhile, players also eat less during tournaments, simply because they don't have the time or the appetite. "The simple explanation is when they're thinking about chess, they're not thinking about food," says Ewan C. McNay, assistant professor of psychology in the behavioral neuroscience program at the University of Albany. That seems far more likely. I'm sure many of us can relate to working through lunch when we have an intense deadline, and not even realizing we're hungry until hours later. > According to Ashley, India's first grandmaster, Viswanathan Anand, does two hours of cardio each night to tire himself out so he doesn't dream about chess; Kasimdzhanov drinks tea only during tournaments and plays tennis and basketball every day. Chirila does at least an hour of cardio and an hour of weights to build muscle mass before tournaments. And apparently they're exercising quite a lot as well. This hardly seems to support that it's just brain power. And my recollection is that focus does not significantly increase glucose uptake in the brain - though stress can obviously increase heart rate, but that's separate, one can focus without being stressed.
- pikma 3y ago
  If thinking hard required a lot of energy, wouldn't we expect that thinking hard would cause an increased heart rate and faster breathing?
  - yieldcrv 3y ago
    the brain has enough blood and oxygen, it uses that to depletes other resources when firing so no. think of it like a computer, drawing more electricity faster won’t help the physical properties of the RAM or transport bus (much). it already has enough of that, the bottleneck is elsewhere. but good breathing does help cognition compared to muscles the brain is a small surface area with a wide bus. when exercising, the demands are about getting more oxygen to more muscles, which is merely transported by blood, and the heart beats faster to pump blood faster, the breathing is an attempt to oxygenate more blood. thats the difference between muscular activity and brain activity
tantalor 3y ago
> watching letters appear on a computer screen every 1.6 seconds and documenting when one matched a letter that had appeared three letters ago. The other 16 participants were asked to perform a similar, but easier task. Both teams worked for just over six hours This is torture
- solardev 3y ago
  It's like guitar hero's evil twin. After six hours, I wish the study would've differentiated between "tired" and "murderously enraged"
- sva_ 3y ago
  Probably got a chance to win a $20 Amazon gift card in return
- mholm 3y ago
  This is fairly similar to an ADHD screening test I took. I was mentally exhausted after about 20 minutes of it.
  - BagelGuy 3y ago
    I took a similar one, I remember "trying" really hard to prove to myself that I wasn't faking but about 30 seconds later I was looking about the room and struggling to recall if the screen changed at all. Was a nice confirmation of my issues.
- deegles 3y ago
  This is a working memory exercise called "n-back". For true torture try "dual n-back" where you also have to match a tone, shape or color. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back
- TonyTrapp 3y ago
  Sounds like something coming straight out of The Stanley Parable.
- frenchwhisker 3y ago
simonw 3y ago
From https://www.npr.org/2019/09/18/762046422/the-chess-grandmasters-diet https://www.npr.org/2019/09/18/762046422/the-chess-grandmast... > Chess grandmasters spend hours sitting over game boards. And yet, high-level players lose 10 to 12 pounds on average over a 10-day tournament.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  I'm wondering if they're just on amphetamines. > He taps his foot gently to keep his alertness on the highest level while still not losing too much energy. He chews gum. Sounds like the kind of behavior you'd expect when hopped up on something tbh
  - mock-possum 3y ago
    Or maybe stimming?
  - BurningFrog 3y ago
    You have to assume anything not tested for (that helps) is used at the top.
    - DarmokJalad1701 3y ago
      > You have to assume anything not tested for (that helps) is used at the top. More like, at the bottom[1]. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SdThUNgLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SdThUNgLo
      - ephbit 3y ago
        First, my apology that I am making this off-topic remark. Remark: is it just me, or do other people too hesitate to click a youtube link with no title given? I feel like I at least want to know the title of the linked video, even if it doesn't reveal much about the video. IMO it'd be very nice if people made a habit of Ctrl+c/v'ing the title along with a yt link.
mtrees_io 3y ago
[flagged]
- esalman 3y ago
  Water wouldn't be so wet if you were cognitively challenged.
  - mtrees_io 3y ago
    "high functioning burger" is what the neurologist said not sure
- rzzzt 3y ago
  That's another rabbit hole altogether: is water wet or does it merely make other things wet?
  - stillbourne 3y ago
    Is water the only wet thing? Because when I'm drying my liquid solvents I'm only removing the water. Is 100% ethanol still "wet?"
    - mtrees_io 3y ago
      Ladies and gentlemen, gather 'round as we reflect upon the profound wisdom imparted by the Log from Ren and Stimpy. In the sacred realm of the animated, behold the Log — a symbol, a metaphor, a wooden beacon lighting the path to enlightenment. Just as the Log rolls through the whimsical landscapes of Ren and Stimpy's world, so too must we navigate the terrain of job applications. The Log teaches us perseverance, for even when faced with absurd challenges, it continues its journey with stoic determination. Applying to jobs, my friends, is akin to riding the Log of life. We must embrace the twists and turns, the uncertainties of the job market, with the same unyielding spirit. For just as the Log is steadfast in its purpose, so should we be in our pursuit of meaningful employment. And lo, let us draw inspiration from the Log Song itself — a melodic reminder that sometimes, in the chaos of job hunting, it's crucial to find joy in the simplicity of the process. Whether it's singing about our resumes or crafting cover letters, let the Log be our guide to finding humor and joy in the journey. In conclusion, my dear congregation, as we face the job market, let the Log's unwavering resolve inspire us to roll forward with resilience and a sprinkle of absurdity. For in the grand tapestry of employment, each of us is but a log on the river of life, floating toward new opportunities and adventures. Amen.
mesarvagya 3y ago
There was a discussion sometime back in reddit [1]: The conclusion: Pushing brain to its limit requires a lot of energy. https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/17ms04d/til_the_exercise_paradox_huntergatherers_who_trek/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/17ms04d/til_...
nullhole 3y ago
What's the difference between feeling tired and being tired? (I'm not going to pay 30 bucks to read the article, so it may answer that question)
- pelagic_sky 3y ago
  https://archive.ph/WJCMC https://archive.ph/WJCMC
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  The former is an indicator of the latter
wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
https://archive.li/WJCMC https://archive.li/WJCMC
b33j0r 3y ago
So, ATP is a thing. The chemical bonds store the energy, then we waste that on puns and being mad at our birth. Just don’t tell Steve Lukather, somehow he never stops touring. Totolly badass.
djokkataja 3y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395
anonymousDan 3y ago
So is there any proven way to train yourself to have more endurance wrt your ability to think hard? Would be an interesting line of research...
mdaniel 3y ago
previous commentary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395 (2022; 189 comments)
CapitalistCartr 3y ago
I learned the real meaning of the word "thinking" the first time I was at 4400m and had to pitch my tent. Thinking really does use oxygen and effort.
blastro 3y ago
Brain requires 12x the amount of oxygen per cell as a muscle does. Brain is most expensive organ in body.
- m3kw9 3y ago
  Actually cheap because it does the most
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    Mine just sits around and worries all day.
    - BagelGuy 3y ago
      Calculating future possibilities and making plans for all of them is hard work.
      - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
        So is running in circles
    - m3kw9 3y ago
      Worrying is good if you can act upon that worry
- hammock 3y ago
  Muscles actually require brainpower. Any serious weightlifter can tell you about the benefits of mind-muscle connection, and how neurologically taxing lifting heavy weights is.
tysam_and 3y ago
I have chronic fatigue issues that go in and out of remission, and the buildup of glutamate seems to by far be the biggest factor for me. N-acetyl Cysteine and other blood glutamate scavengers (BGS) like malic acid and pyruvate are indispensable in these scenarios. They don't solve the issue but dampen it a bit. Additionally, a ketogenic diet helped me a lot. Most of all, high dose niacinamide holds it in remission at times, though I have a theory it's caused by a well-set-in, chronic infection as the reduction in symptoms with niacinamide correlates with the symptoms of fighting off an infection (very swollen lymph nodes, histamine release, sometimes nausea &etc, headaches, some other clear indicators, etc). I've been on it for about 7-8 weeks or so and we're still going! That said, having energy is a gift that is hard to quantify. Chronic fatigue takes away your ability to think about anything, so you have to have discipline to not think about anything sometimes...which also takes mental energy. It's a bit of a living hell, for suresies. Here's hoping I get to stay in remission. <3 :')))))
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Have you been tested for Lyme? This is textbook Lyme disease.
  - ryeights 3y ago
    If you don’t live in a Lyme-prone area, Lyme is unlikely and your risk of a false positive is high
    - rpmisms 3y ago
      It's spreading rapidly. Worth a shot. Undiagnosed Lyme is horrible and can cause serious long-term damage.
  - tysam_and 3y ago
    The world is much more complex than this, unfortunately, there are a significant number of etiologies which result in CFS-like symptoms, it's one of the less studied umbrellas out there. Lyme, babesiosis, rocky mountain spotted fever, etc, all negative. I also did a urine Lyme DNA test a while back but looking back on it, apparently that was not an extremely reliable test (though the western blot has a decent amount of false negatives as well). I believe it's a chronic yeast infection that's slowly traveled up under the skin of my left leg for the last 7 years or so. It started out as athletes foot in college, and then when I got past the point of being too overwhelmed to treat it, it had set in pretty well. I wondered if the two were correlated, but over the past few years I've had increasing leg pain in that area, and the same pain in my toe where the infection was. Of course, the nature of this infection is that it seems to be resistant to many OTC classes of antifungals, so it did not budge. The most effective agent was carvacrol/thymol, which is extremely broad range (even against MRSA), but it macerated the skin to a point of strong pain, bleeding, etc, all that jazz. Even when it cleared up on the outside, there was a deep white patch under the skin that you could see under the (healthy-seeming) skin, which, of course, is its own unique class of horror. About a year ago or so, I finally broke and decided to get rid of the skin infection no matter what. I basically mixed isopropyl alcohol and table vinegar and put it in the skin after removing the top layer of dead skin, which as it was an open wound was extremely painful. I used the reasoning that I could temporarily damage the nerves with overexcitation via the isopropyl alcohol stimulation, and that reasoning panned out after an excruciating several days, after which my nerves were damaged enough to no longer hurt under the raw vinegar and alcohol combination. That at least cleared up the surface infection until I was on the Appalachian Trail this year (which, yes, I did my two months on it with chronic fatigue + post exertional malaise (!!!!) !), where, more than a year later, the infection inexplicably came back again. I found niacinamide in my search for treatment-resistant infections, and it cleared up the surface infection within an astounding 2-3 days. I started taking it orally, and became extremely sick, it felt like I was being poisoned and doing a mini-chemotherapy of sorts, so I slowed down and began taking silymarin and NAC to help preserve liver and kidney function (which seems to still remain okay so far). The process of treating it has been painful, as the initial days caused a huge flare in leg pain in my left leg corresponding with swelling of the lymph nodes almost exclusively on the left side of my body, oddly enough (though it seems to have balanced out, a bit). I was in the emergency room on my birthday last year due to the leg pain, and they couldn't figure it out so they offered a potential umbrella diagnosis of complex regional pain syndrome. It's hard to keep up with dosing as I do have a bit of an aversion to feeling sick -- it quite literally feels like I'm being poisoned! -- but, my CMP from even this week came back okay, and I'm getting a feeling of underlying 'rightness' despite the transient negative symptoms (including having to pee every 2-3 hours...not fun). I've had maybe two dozen doctors, both in and out of the ER (6 visits in the last year or so), or so give me that look of not quite being able to know what to do. I applied to the internal medicine program at the Mayo Clinic a few months ago and got a form letter turning me down. It's not due to incompetence, it's just that there is a long tail of extremely complicated conditions that categorically fit an umbrella of symptoms, but are extremely hard to actually track down (and the semi-binarization of medical specialties makes cross-disciplinary diagnosis extremely difficult for these vague kinds of conditions). I'm sitting here now and can feel the leg pain when I focus on it, for example. But I think treating it is worth it -- especially as one has to work to live in many circumstances! That said, this does not underpin how grateful I am to at least have one avenue -- whether it's temporary or not -- where I can have energy. This also doesn't cover things like the mast cell sensitivity (diagnosed as not MCAS by _two_ separate immunologists, though they both fall in the tryptase-test-philosophy camp). I react to everything, including All Free and Clear detergent, for example, and with food and such sometimes it's just eating tons of meat (it's pure muscle protein and fat and doesn't have things I can react to like lots of plants do) and multivitamins to cover the nutritional gaps. I wish it were as simple as just having Lyme disease, as I think that would be much, much easier for me personally. But, I suppose to keep living we have to accept the limitations that we have (and unfortunately this is not the only journey of limitation I'm on -- I also have autism to a mild-moderate degree! That would be enough challenge for a normal lifetime as it is. D'''':), and I had a number of years where I really struggled (like, really really struggled). But all of that said, I think although it's taken a few years, I've come around the bend in starting that process of eventually accepting the challenges I've been given, and I am on currently on that particular upward walk of learning to enjoy the life that I do have access to in the meantime. It's not perfect, and I have a lot of big bumps in the road, for sure, but the slope for me is pointed up, and that's what I wished for for years. And I'm enjoying life a lot more than I have in the past, on average! :')))) <3 <3 <3 <3 :')))) Hope that answers your question.
willsmith72 3y ago
i'm glad studies like these exist, and hope we'll see more and more like it in future. But as the article mentioned, the more interesting part is the follow-up. How do you improve your decision-making and reduce tiredness?
- trealira 3y ago
  I've found that exercise helps. I try to jog and lift weights regularly, but usually I exercise for a few months and stop for a few months. When I don't exercise, I notice I'm a lot more tired and feel significantly colder than when I work out. Also, if I don't eat enough food, I feel tired throughout the day as well. It makes me feel like I can't focus or think, but then I'm fine after I eat. Maybe it's because I'm skinny.
tyronehed 3y ago
[dead]
qpiox 3y ago
Paywall
germandiago 3y ago
I can say that when I do a task with a high level of difficulty and get stuck I get much more tired than when things go smooth even when working the same number of hours.

189 points by rzk 3y ago

yamrzou 3y ago

https://archive.ph/WJCMC https://archive.ph/WJCMC

insanitybit 3y ago
Should probably replace the link with this, since it's actually readable.
- theyinwhy 3y ago
  "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - insanitybit 3y ago
    OK but the original source is not accessible?
yieldcrv 3y ago
I swear there is a version of archive that plays nice with icloud+ relay I keep forgetting which one
flobosg 3y ago
The actual study, which apparently is freely accessible now because more than 12 months have passed after publication: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)01111-3 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(22)...
- throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  > Obviously, our results are only correlational and cannot be taken as proof that what limits cognitive control exertion is the need to prevent glutamate accumulation. I didn't read the original story but I wonder if it included that little gem

progne 3y ago

Is glutamate : neurons :: lactic acid : muscle?

andbberger 3y ago
no
adpirz 3y ago
The lactic acid thing is a myth. https://www.bostonsportsmed.com/2013/08/the-lactic-acid-myth/ https://www.bostonsportsmed.com/2013/08/the-lactic-acid-myth...
- fsckboy 3y ago
  >"lactic acid cannot even really exist in the body because blood pH is too neutral, (around 7) and acids require very low pH" HF, HCl, and H2SO4, to name a few acids, do not "require" low pH, they BYOpH

User23 3y ago

Because it takes energy? This is pretty well observed in high level chess[1]. [1] https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmasters-magnus-carlsen-fabiano-caruana-lose-weight-playing-chess https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/why-grandmaste...

insanitybit 3y ago
That hardly seems conclusive. For example, > Meanwhile, players also eat less during tournaments, simply because they don't have the time or the appetite. "The simple explanation is when they're thinking about chess, they're not thinking about food," says Ewan C. McNay, assistant professor of psychology in the behavioral neuroscience program at the University of Albany. That seems far more likely. I'm sure many of us can relate to working through lunch when we have an intense deadline, and not even realizing we're hungry until hours later. > According to Ashley, India's first grandmaster, Viswanathan Anand, does two hours of cardio each night to tire himself out so he doesn't dream about chess; Kasimdzhanov drinks tea only during tournaments and plays tennis and basketball every day. Chirila does at least an hour of cardio and an hour of weights to build muscle mass before tournaments. And apparently they're exercising quite a lot as well. This hardly seems to support that it's just brain power. And my recollection is that focus does not significantly increase glucose uptake in the brain - though stress can obviously increase heart rate, but that's separate, one can focus without being stressed.
pikma 3y ago
If thinking hard required a lot of energy, wouldn't we expect that thinking hard would cause an increased heart rate and faster breathing?
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  the brain has enough blood and oxygen, it uses that to depletes other resources when firing so no. think of it like a computer, drawing more electricity faster won’t help the physical properties of the RAM or transport bus (much). it already has enough of that, the bottleneck is elsewhere. but good breathing does help cognition compared to muscles the brain is a small surface area with a wide bus. when exercising, the demands are about getting more oxygen to more muscles, which is merely transported by blood, and the heart beats faster to pump blood faster, the breathing is an attempt to oxygenate more blood. thats the difference between muscular activity and brain activity

tantalor 3y ago

> watching letters appear on a computer screen every 1.6 seconds and documenting when one matched a letter that had appeared three letters ago. The other 16 participants were asked to perform a similar, but easier task. Both teams worked for just over six hours This is torture

solardev 3y ago
It's like guitar hero's evil twin. After six hours, I wish the study would've differentiated between "tired" and "murderously enraged"
sva_ 3y ago
Probably got a chance to win a $20 Amazon gift card in return
mholm 3y ago
This is fairly similar to an ADHD screening test I took. I was mentally exhausted after about 20 minutes of it.
- BagelGuy 3y ago
  I took a similar one, I remember "trying" really hard to prove to myself that I wasn't faking but about 30 seconds later I was looking about the room and struggling to recall if the screen changed at all. Was a nice confirmation of my issues.
deegles 3y ago
This is a working memory exercise called "n-back". For true torture try "dual n-back" where you also have to match a tone, shape or color. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-back
TonyTrapp 3y ago
Sounds like something coming straight out of The Stanley Parable.
frenchwhisker 3y ago

simonw 3y ago

From https://www.npr.org/2019/09/18/762046422/the-chess-grandmasters-diet https://www.npr.org/2019/09/18/762046422/the-chess-grandmast... > Chess grandmasters spend hours sitting over game boards. And yet, high-level players lose 10 to 12 pounds on average over a 10-day tournament.

insanitybit 3y ago
I'm wondering if they're just on amphetamines. > He taps his foot gently to keep his alertness on the highest level while still not losing too much energy. He chews gum. Sounds like the kind of behavior you'd expect when hopped up on something tbh
- mock-possum 3y ago
  Or maybe stimming?
- BurningFrog 3y ago
  You have to assume anything not tested for (that helps) is used at the top.
  - DarmokJalad1701 3y ago
    > You have to assume anything not tested for (that helps) is used at the top. More like, at the bottom[1]. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SdThUNgLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SdThUNgLo
    - ephbit 3y ago
      First, my apology that I am making this off-topic remark. Remark: is it just me, or do other people too hesitate to click a youtube link with no title given? I feel like I at least want to know the title of the linked video, even if it doesn't reveal much about the video. IMO it'd be very nice if people made a habit of Ctrl+c/v'ing the title along with a yt link.

mtrees_io 3y ago

[flagged]

esalman 3y ago
Water wouldn't be so wet if you were cognitively challenged.
- mtrees_io 3y ago
  "high functioning burger" is what the neurologist said not sure
rzzzt 3y ago
That's another rabbit hole altogether: is water wet or does it merely make other things wet?
- stillbourne 3y ago
  Is water the only wet thing? Because when I'm drying my liquid solvents I'm only removing the water. Is 100% ethanol still "wet?"
  - mtrees_io 3y ago
    Ladies and gentlemen, gather 'round as we reflect upon the profound wisdom imparted by the Log from Ren and Stimpy. In the sacred realm of the animated, behold the Log — a symbol, a metaphor, a wooden beacon lighting the path to enlightenment. Just as the Log rolls through the whimsical landscapes of Ren and Stimpy's world, so too must we navigate the terrain of job applications. The Log teaches us perseverance, for even when faced with absurd challenges, it continues its journey with stoic determination. Applying to jobs, my friends, is akin to riding the Log of life. We must embrace the twists and turns, the uncertainties of the job market, with the same unyielding spirit. For just as the Log is steadfast in its purpose, so should we be in our pursuit of meaningful employment. And lo, let us draw inspiration from the Log Song itself — a melodic reminder that sometimes, in the chaos of job hunting, it's crucial to find joy in the simplicity of the process. Whether it's singing about our resumes or crafting cover letters, let the Log be our guide to finding humor and joy in the journey. In conclusion, my dear congregation, as we face the job market, let the Log's unwavering resolve inspire us to roll forward with resilience and a sprinkle of absurdity. For in the grand tapestry of employment, each of us is but a log on the river of life, floating toward new opportunities and adventures. Amen.

mesarvagya 3y ago

There was a discussion sometime back in reddit [1]: The conclusion: Pushing brain to its limit requires a lot of energy. https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/17ms04d/til_the_exercise_paradox_huntergatherers_who_trek/ https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/17ms04d/til_...

nullhole 3y ago

What's the difference between feeling tired and being tired? (I'm not going to pay 30 bucks to read the article, so it may answer that question)

pelagic_sky 3y ago
https://archive.ph/WJCMC https://archive.ph/WJCMC
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
The former is an indicator of the latter

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago

https://archive.li/WJCMC https://archive.li/WJCMC

b33j0r 3y ago

So, ATP is a thing. The chemical bonds store the energy, then we waste that on puns and being mad at our birth. Just don’t tell Steve Lukather, somehow he never stops touring. Totolly badass.

djokkataja 3y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395

anonymousDan 3y ago

So is there any proven way to train yourself to have more endurance wrt your ability to think hard? Would be an interesting line of research...

mdaniel 3y ago

previous commentary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32430395 (2022; 189 comments)

CapitalistCartr 3y ago

I learned the real meaning of the word "thinking" the first time I was at 4400m and had to pitch my tent. Thinking really does use oxygen and effort.

blastro 3y ago

Brain requires 12x the amount of oxygen per cell as a muscle does. Brain is most expensive organ in body.

m3kw9 3y ago
Actually cheap because it does the most
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  Mine just sits around and worries all day.
  - BagelGuy 3y ago
    Calculating future possibilities and making plans for all of them is hard work.
    - throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
      So is running in circles
  - m3kw9 3y ago
    Worrying is good if you can act upon that worry
hammock 3y ago
Muscles actually require brainpower. Any serious weightlifter can tell you about the benefits of mind-muscle connection, and how neurologically taxing lifting heavy weights is.

tysam_and 3y ago

I have chronic fatigue issues that go in and out of remission, and the buildup of glutamate seems to by far be the biggest factor for me. N-acetyl Cysteine and other blood glutamate scavengers (BGS) like malic acid and pyruvate are indispensable in these scenarios. They don't solve the issue but dampen it a bit. Additionally, a ketogenic diet helped me a lot. Most of all, high dose niacinamide holds it in remission at times, though I have a theory it's caused by a well-set-in, chronic infection as the reduction in symptoms with niacinamide correlates with the symptoms of fighting off an infection (very swollen lymph nodes, histamine release, sometimes nausea &etc, headaches, some other clear indicators, etc). I've been on it for about 7-8 weeks or so and we're still going! That said, having energy is a gift that is hard to quantify. Chronic fatigue takes away your ability to think about anything, so you have to have discipline to not think about anything sometimes...which also takes mental energy. It's a bit of a living hell, for suresies. Here's hoping I get to stay in remission. <3 :')))))

rpmisms 3y ago
Have you been tested for Lyme? This is textbook Lyme disease.
- ryeights 3y ago
  If you don’t live in a Lyme-prone area, Lyme is unlikely and your risk of a false positive is high
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    It's spreading rapidly. Worth a shot. Undiagnosed Lyme is horrible and can cause serious long-term damage.
- tysam_and 3y ago
  The world is much more complex than this, unfortunately, there are a significant number of etiologies which result in CFS-like symptoms, it's one of the less studied umbrellas out there. Lyme, babesiosis, rocky mountain spotted fever, etc, all negative. I also did a urine Lyme DNA test a while back but looking back on it, apparently that was not an extremely reliable test (though the western blot has a decent amount of false negatives as well). I believe it's a chronic yeast infection that's slowly traveled up under the skin of my left leg for the last 7 years or so. It started out as athletes foot in college, and then when I got past the point of being too overwhelmed to treat it, it had set in pretty well. I wondered if the two were correlated, but over the past few years I've had increasing leg pain in that area, and the same pain in my toe where the infection was. Of course, the nature of this infection is that it seems to be resistant to many OTC classes of antifungals, so it did not budge. The most effective agent was carvacrol/thymol, which is extremely broad range (even against MRSA), but it macerated the skin to a point of strong pain, bleeding, etc, all that jazz. Even when it cleared up on the outside, there was a deep white patch under the skin that you could see under the (healthy-seeming) skin, which, of course, is its own unique class of horror. About a year ago or so, I finally broke and decided to get rid of the skin infection no matter what. I basically mixed isopropyl alcohol and table vinegar and put it in the skin after removing the top layer of dead skin, which as it was an open wound was extremely painful. I used the reasoning that I could temporarily damage the nerves with overexcitation via the isopropyl alcohol stimulation, and that reasoning panned out after an excruciating several days, after which my nerves were damaged enough to no longer hurt under the raw vinegar and alcohol combination. That at least cleared up the surface infection until I was on the Appalachian Trail this year (which, yes, I did my two months on it with chronic fatigue + post exertional malaise (!!!!) !), where, more than a year later, the infection inexplicably came back again. I found niacinamide in my search for treatment-resistant infections, and it cleared up the surface infection within an astounding 2-3 days. I started taking it orally, and became extremely sick, it felt like I was being poisoned and doing a mini-chemotherapy of sorts, so I slowed down and began taking silymarin and NAC to help preserve liver and kidney function (which seems to still remain okay so far). The process of treating it has been painful, as the initial days caused a huge flare in leg pain in my left leg corresponding with swelling of the lymph nodes almost exclusively on the left side of my body, oddly enough (though it seems to have balanced out, a bit). I was in the emergency room on my birthday last year due to the leg pain, and they couldn't figure it out so they offered a potential umbrella diagnosis of complex regional pain syndrome. It's hard to keep up with dosing as I do have a bit of an aversion to feeling sick -- it quite literally feels like I'm being poisoned! -- but, my CMP from even this week came back okay, and I'm getting a feeling of underlying 'rightness' despite the transient negative symptoms (including having to pee every 2-3 hours...not fun). I've had maybe two dozen doctors, both in and out of the ER (6 visits in the last year or so), or so give me that look of not quite being able to know what to do. I applied to the internal medicine program at the Mayo Clinic a few months ago and got a form letter turning me down. It's not due to incompetence, it's just that there is a long tail of extremely complicated conditions that categorically fit an umbrella of symptoms, but are extremely hard to actually track down (and the semi-binarization of medical specialties makes cross-disciplinary diagnosis extremely difficult for these vague kinds of conditions). I'm sitting here now and can feel the leg pain when I focus on it, for example. But I think treating it is worth it -- especially as one has to work to live in many circumstances! That said, this does not underpin how grateful I am to at least have one avenue -- whether it's temporary or not -- where I can have energy. This also doesn't cover things like the mast cell sensitivity (diagnosed as not MCAS by _two_ separate immunologists, though they both fall in the tryptase-test-philosophy camp). I react to everything, including All Free and Clear detergent, for example, and with food and such sometimes it's just eating tons of meat (it's pure muscle protein and fat and doesn't have things I can react to like lots of plants do) and multivitamins to cover the nutritional gaps. I wish it were as simple as just having Lyme disease, as I think that would be much, much easier for me personally. But, I suppose to keep living we have to accept the limitations that we have (and unfortunately this is not the only journey of limitation I'm on -- I also have autism to a mild-moderate degree! That would be enough challenge for a normal lifetime as it is. D'''':), and I had a number of years where I really struggled (like, really really struggled). But all of that said, I think although it's taken a few years, I've come around the bend in starting that process of eventually accepting the challenges I've been given, and I am on currently on that particular upward walk of learning to enjoy the life that I do have access to in the meantime. It's not perfect, and I have a lot of big bumps in the road, for sure, but the slope for me is pointed up, and that's what I wished for for years. And I'm enjoying life a lot more than I have in the past, on average! :')))) <3 <3 <3 <3 :')))) Hope that answers your question.

willsmith72 3y ago

i'm glad studies like these exist, and hope we'll see more and more like it in future. But as the article mentioned, the more interesting part is the follow-up. How do you improve your decision-making and reduce tiredness?

trealira 3y ago
I've found that exercise helps. I try to jog and lift weights regularly, but usually I exercise for a few months and stop for a few months. When I don't exercise, I notice I'm a lot more tired and feel significantly colder than when I work out. Also, if I don't eat enough food, I feel tired throughout the day as well. It makes me feel like I can't focus or think, but then I'm fine after I eat. Maybe it's because I'm skinny.

tyronehed 3y ago

[dead]

qpiox 3y ago

Paywall

germandiago 3y ago

I can say that when I do a task with a high level of difficulty and get stuck I get much more tired than when things go smooth even when working the same number of hours.