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Despite the lobbying from American organisations (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Palantir and others who worked with Thorn on this [1][2]) the EU Parliame
by eigenket 3y ago
Despite the lobbying from American organisations (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon, Palantir and others who worked with Thorn on this [1][2]) the EU Parliament did the right thing this time.
[1] https://www.thorn.org/partnerships/ https://www.thorn.org/partnerships/
[2]https://web.archive.org/web/20130420162917/http://www.wearethorn.org/aboutus/#techTaskForceExpanded https://web.archive.org/web/20130420162917/http://www.wearet...
- PoignardAzur 3y agoContrary to popular opinion, lobbying isn't as simple as "pay for expensive restaurant, get votes". If legislators feel strongly ideologically about an issue, no amount of lobbying will make them vote the other way.
- eddtries 3y agoHow do you explain big Pharma lobbying to stop reducing drug prices? For example, Democrats who held up drug pricing reforms were the largest beneficiaries of lobbyist money. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/capitol-hill-drug-pricing-reform-opponents-among-biggest-beneficiaries-pharma-2021-10-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
- zakary 3y agoEveryone has a price, and drug companies can usually find a way to meet it for even the most steadfast
- eddtries 3y agoYeah I agree, I was responding to > If legislators feel strongly ideologically about an issue, no amount of lobbying will make them vote the other way.
- JoshTriplett 3y ago> Everyone has a price Some people really do have principles they won't violate. We just don't get enough people in politics who don't have a price.
- verisimi 3y agoNot politicians. Not many normal people either. And that presumes that most people even know what 'principles' are - which they do not.
- eigenket 3y agoThe short answer is that we're talking about the EU. Thats a US thing. As far as I can tell looking from the outside the US system is set up so that if you aren't ridiculously wealthy yourself you pretty much need lobbyist money to fund your campaign to get elected.
- eddtries 3y agoThat's probably true, there is lobbying in the UK so I assume countries within Europe have similar issues but I don't truly know.
- qwytw 3y agoGenerally political advertisements, campaign spending and especially donations are strongly limited. E.g. where I am a only private individuals can only donate and only up to 10k per year. The downside of that is that most funding parties receive comes from the state and it's based on their previous election performance (which is problematic due to very obvious reasons...). Also if everyone can give/spend as much as they want legally it at least stays semi transparent so in theory voters can base their decisions on that. Illegal bribes, kickbacks etc. are a bit harder to track.
- drstewart 3y ago>As far as I can tell looking from the outside Out of curiosity, how accurately do you feel are the opinions of outsiders with no experience living in your country who comment on your country's state of affairs?
- Timwi 3y agoWell, on the one hand of course you could argue that outsiders are less experienced with living in your country. But outsiders have no emotional stakes in convincing themselves that your country is the best on earth. Consequently, I feel the non-US media are freer than US mass media to discuss the true state of American healthcare. Outsiders are less susceptible to your country's patriotic propaganda. This does go both (or all) ways. The US are an example here, not a singular special case. Every country tries to convince its citizens that it's better than everywhere else.
- madeofpalk 3y agoThey don't feel strongly ideologically about an issue
- eddtries 3y agoYou might be right, but having politicians who are not ideologically pro-affordable healthcare is a really sad state of affairs
- eigenket 3y agoWell one of these guys is Bob Menendez, who is currently indicted on his second federal corruption charges and who happily accepts cash and gold bars from Egyptian nationals.
- qwytw 3y agoSome do, unfortunately oftentimes it's the crazy ones that feel the strongest about things.
- martin8412 3y agoThat's a US problem. The prices of all medicines in for example Denmark are publicly available. The medicine is purchased by a single entity(and there are proposals to combine the entities within the Nordic countries to form a single large purchaser), so to sell medicine in Denmark you'll have to play ball. The prices are therefore quite reasonable. Insulin which is a commonly used example of overpriced medicine in the US is around 40-50 USD in Denmark. That is the brand version from Novo Nordisk. The prices are available at https://www.medicinpriser.dk/?lng=2 https://www.medicinpriser.dk/?lng=2
- nonameiguess 3y agoI think the explanation is these legislators are not the ones who feel ideologically strong about cutting drug prices. Of the three people listed in this article, Kyrsten Sinema is no longer a Democrat and Bob Menendez is currently under indicment on federal corruption charges, which is now the second time for him.
- rsynnott 3y agoLobbying is likely easier in a polarised two-party system where you really only have to swing a few people on the edges to deadlock things. The European Parliament has 6 large parties (>50 seats), and they're not particularly cohesive, so cases where the pre-ordained decision can be swayed by getting to this six people would be much rarer.
- Lutger 3y agoThat is likely true, though there is still extensive lobbying going on in the EU and within EU countries. It is just done in a different way, with different mechanics.
- collyw 3y agoSure.
- nottheengineer 3y agoIt's a numbers game. You can't convince everyone, but lobbyists are generally good at their job and know how to find people with malleable opinions. I don't think there's a topic where lobbying doesn't work to at least some degree. Or do you have an example?
- PoignardAzur 3y ago> I don't think there's a topic where lobbying doesn't work to at least some degree. I wasn't saying lobbying doesn't work at all.
- waihtis 3y agoThe expert panel for this was truly a sight to behold, with majority representation coming from outside the EU (mostly american, but also canadian, new zealand and australian representation): https://twitter.com/SimoKohonen/status/1722635234116506052 https://twitter.com/SimoKohonen/status/1722635234116506052
- eigenket 3y agoI count 24 experts from 5 eyes countries and 8 from non 5 eyes countries. Not sure if thats relevant but it is funny.
- waihtis 3y agoI just think you might be onto something
- pas 3y ago> https://www.patrick-breyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SKM_C45820090717470-1.pdf https://www.patrick-breyer.de/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SKM... page 26 (or page 24 in in-document numbering) ... amazing that Thorn was just an "NGO" .. instead of the company that wants to sell filtering tech. so, can we get the actual expert opinion of these wonderful folk?
- api 3y agoLooks like some of the AI doom regulatory capture panels I’ve seen.
- waihtis 3y agoOh yes. Strong industry lobby groups from the US, a handful of useful idiots from the EU. Amazing power balance.
- eddtries 3y agoThe thing that I find shocking about lobbying is just how cheap it is. In the FTX trial the amount they spent lobbying politicians for pro-crypto laws was released and we're talking low five figures. SBF even said lobbying was very cheap for the impact you can get. Naively I thought it would cost millions to get a politician to support you but actually it's cheap enough a FAANG engineer could individually pay enough to lobby someone lol. Edit: Literally the user base on HN would be able to crowdfund and organise a lobbying group greater than the NRA ($2.93M in 2022) if we wanted to - lobbying is such a smaller industry than I intuitively expect
- zo1 3y agoI think we're partially mistaken about the true value and reason for lobbying existing as a concept. It's a cover that muddies the waters in discussion about laws, a coping mechanism for "The Other Side" and at the same time an endless stream of content for potential reporting by reporters/media.
- andrewinardeer 3y agoThat money is just to employ lobbyists and their associated expenses. I'm sure there is additional money for lobbying that is not on the books. Holidays, houses, good bullion, crypto, free memberships to exclusive clubs and the like that is gifted to politician's and their spouses by big industry.
- eddtries 3y agoSo with regards to FTX these were listed in the same spreadsheet as "Gifts", and there were some, but we're still talking low five figures for the majority of politicians. And it's not like FTX were not willing to spend more, they spent $68M on Tom Brady and Giselle for a two year contract to advertise FTX, or $500k on hotel rooms for interns in Miami.
- justinclift 3y agoIs that low five figures each?
- rippeltippel 3y agoI'm still waiting for the day when we'll replace the word "lobbying" with "corruption".
- jacquesm 3y agoAgreed, that is exactly what it is. It's a huge stain on democracy and in many ways subverts it. Companies don't have the right to vote and should not be able to do an end-run around the electoral process with their money.
- Terretta 3y agoLobbyists are just your duly capitalized representatives to your duly elected representatives.
- robertlagrant 3y ago> Companies don't have the right to vote and should not be able to do an end-run around the electoral process with their money. There's no difference between companies and people here; no one, spending their company's money or their own, should be able to influence solely through money. They only can because of corrupt state employees, who should be replaced.
- jacquesm 3y ago> There's no difference between companies and people here; no one, spending their company's money or their own, should be able to influence solely through money. There is because individuals are not normally the clients of lobbyists, nor do they - normally - approach politicians directly with money in hand except for some countries where campaign donations are a thing. They shouldn't be because they are effectively corruption but unsurprisingly countries where this practice is established never get around to abolishing it because it put the people who are in power in power in the first place. > They only can because of corrupt state employees, who should be replaced. If the state employees receive that money off the books then yes, but if it is structural it is not the employees that should be replaced but the system that should be replaced. And that is a much harder task. Because you could replace employees until the cows come home, if the system remains the same nothing will really change.
- moffkalast 3y agoThe EU parliament usually does the right thing if you look at past votes, there was never any doubt. Well maybe a tiny bit of doubt.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago> thing this time I'm sure it'll get reintroduced in a year or so, and if it doesn't get enough media attention, it'll pass. They only have to win once, we have to win every goddamn time.
- wodenokoto 3y agoELI5, why does google want regulation that tells them to scan user content for various suspicious activities?
- waihtis 3y agoGoogle has well enough resources to handle such an effort whereas a newer, competing entity will likely not. ("entry barriers")
- aremat 3y agoIt's not just lobbying. There are entire industries built around the revolving doors of think tanks, NGOs, boards, advisories, "research" institutes, etc.
- victorbjorklund 3y agoOr did they just think there was too much attention and they will instead approve something else under a new name in the future?
- Run_DOS_Run 3y agoThorn and all its supporters should be branded for what they are: Enemies of the free world. Enemies of democracy and fighters for oppression and dystopian police states. If you look at the developments in Hungary and Poland (or the polls in Austria), any form of surveillance will be just used as another vehicle to keep autocrats and would-be dictators in power. I doubt that the election in Poland in 2023 would have turned out like this if the PiS had seamless protocols of the opposition's communication.