12 ms·

Very cool. They've done what I've daydreamed about, and actually got it to work! When I played Elite: Dangerous I used a "hand on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) s

Very cool. They've done what I've daydreamed about, and actually got it to work! When I played Elite: Dangerous I used a "hand on throttle and stick" (HOTAS) setup, along with foot pedals. I couldn't help but think that there must be a better way to control a spaceship: your ship can pitch, yaw, and roll in addition to being able to fire thrusters in 6 directions. I wanted a handheld ship model that I could move such that the ship in Elite would move in the same way. The linked project looks like it could do just that. Thrust would be controlled in a similar way, but with my other hand. Strange or new input models like that are so amazing to me. Our imagination can really fly high with these sorts of capabilities.

squigz 3y ago
This is why 2 sticks is a fairly common setup for space games
Arelius 3y ago
I still hold onto my SpaceOrb369 for this sort of game. There is a guy that makes a converter to make it work over USB... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceOrb_360 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceOrb_360 https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-4/ https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-...
- myself248 3y ago
  I have the slightly newer version, branded by HP as the SpacePilot, and use it daily in Fusion 360 CAD. It has a native USB connection, and 6 user-definable hotkeys below an unimpressive LCD. It requires some old drivers that aren't officially supported (why would they remove support for perfectly good hardware from the newer drivers? To send good stuff to the landfill, of course!), but when Autodesk tried to move Fusion to the new driver model exclusively, user outcry persuaded them to leave the old drivers in as an option. Apparently there's quite a few of us using those SpacePilots, and the phrase "from my cold, dead fingers" comes up not infrequently.
  - w-ll 3y ago
    I plugged in my old SpacePilot Pro the other day and was so dissapointed that the drivers where so outdated, and like nothing was working.
  - Arelius 3y ago
    For sure, the HP one is a rebrand of the 3Dconnexion right? Those are great, but nothing really compares to the original SpaceOrb360 controller form-factor for gaming IMO.
    - myself248 3y ago
      Yup, as far as I can tell the HP one is literally just a sticker and a different splash screen when the LCD powers up, it's otherwise 100% identical to the 3dconnexion original. Just slightly cheaper because of keyword search. I haven't used the SpaceOrb360 but it looks like it would be a lot of wrist strain to hold it and use it for long periods. But I like the button placement under the right hand... hmm. With the SpacePilot, I have my right hand on the keyboard or mouse so I can bind whatever buttons I want, and I suppose I could one-hand a regular controller and get A/B/X/Y/stick/triggers in my right hand instead. Hmm. Would that be easier on the wrists than melding the two together? I'm not sure. It would certainly give me more buttons to play with...
- lowbloodsugar 3y ago
  If you weren’t playing Descent with this you were losing.
tadfisher 3y ago
In the sci-fi series The Expanse, the Rocinante is controlled in part by a 3DConnexion SpaceMouse, commonly used in CAD and 3D modeling.
pests 3y ago
I always imagined a sphere suspended / held by a minimum number of strings (or rods?) / attachments. By physically pushing, pulling, and twisting the sphere you could detect these movements via compression and tension in the attachments. You could motorize those strings/rods to give resistence and feedback to the piloting.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Yeah that's almost exactly what I was daydreaming of! Weaker gyroscopes might mean a ship can rotate in one direction slower than others, and feedback to a controller could model that for the user.
navane 3y ago
this 6dof "joystick" has been around for decades: https://3dconnexion.com/nl/spacemouse/ https://3dconnexion.com/nl/spacemouse/
- two_handfuls 3y ago
  This. Sadly the drivers suck.
  - Isthatablackgsd 3y ago
    Would it help with scripting macro software such as AutoHotKey? I imagine it wouldn't pick up some inputs due to proprietary driver. It have the same issue for my Logitech G600 that it can't pick up some inputs. I set up the macros in LGHUB with keystrokes (multiple modifiers with keys) and use AHK to grab those and expands the capabilities of my G600 than what LGHUB offers.
    - two_handfuls 3y ago
      Exactly, the inputs aren’t exposed as extra axes so those tools don’t see them.
      - Isthatablackgsd 3y ago
        Could it help if the driver have those axes assigned to a different key to allow AHK to pick that up and AHK can change it as axes? I done that with my XP-PEN AC-19, I assigned the dial wheel to different keys in XP-PEN software and AutoHotInterception with AHK to pick that up. Then assigned it with wheelup/down depending on what active window I am on.
        two_handfuls 3y ago
        It does not expose it as a key either. You must link their proprietary driver (and sign some legal document) that then gives you an API you can use to read the position of the spaceball.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
> I couldn't help but think that there must be a better way to control a spaceship Two sticks? https://old.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/16xi20a/dual_stick_hosas_cam_viper_time/ https://old.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/16xi20a/dua... https://youtu.be/T2-IHgNYaKA https://youtu.be/T2-IHgNYaKA
- jessriedel 3y ago
  Yep. I played Descent II this way and it was glorious.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  That's really nice, before now I hadn't really understood how to use 2 sticks, but now it makes sense. I used a CH Pro throttle, which has enough hats to sort of mimic that 2 stick action. Main throttle back forward for main engine and retros. A smaller thumb stick/hat for each of Y and Z axis. https://www.chproducts.com/Pro-Throttle-v13-d-719.html https://www.chproducts.com/Pro-Throttle-v13-d-719.html
  - sundvor 3y ago
    That works wonderfully with VKB's STECS, which lets you swap physical detent profiles in roughly 20 seconds. So you have a forward/backward axis on your throttle with a well defined "W" centre point, plus a high quality thumb stick for your lateral/vertical thrusters. (In case anyone is wondering, I transitioned from the Warthog throttle with DeltaSim's slew mod with zero issues, I find the STECS Standard way more versatile and flexible). I couple this with a Gunfighter Ultimate stick (V3), and Crosswinds pedals, all profile mounted. (My GFU grip has twist, but I don't use it.) When you add TrackIR in my case (or VR for others), there's quite a bit of immersion going on! :-) I play DCS and Star Citizen these days, also used to fly Elite Dangerous though. Building the combined quad screen workstation / simrig has been a wonderful side project over the past few years. ;)
userbinator 3y ago
Given that a spaceship isn't all that different from a fixed-wing aircraft, and the stick + pedals arrangement has become a standard for controlling the latter for over a century, I think it'd be hard to improve on.
- marcellus23 3y ago
  The difference is that spaceships have thrusters, so they have the ability to accelerate up, down, left, or right, in addition to all the controls of a fixed-wing aircraft (throttle + stick + pedals).
- hooverd 3y ago
  With no gravity or drag they're way different.
- lowbloodsugar 3y ago
  Do fixed wing aircraft spend a lot of the time going backwards? Do they, for example, need to turn around and point their engine in the direction of travel in order to slow down? If a fixed wing accelerates to 1000mph and then rotates it’s nose by 90 degrees, how fast is it going and in what direction? What about a space craft?
  - nkrisc 3y ago
    > If a fixed wing accelerates to 1000mph and then rotates it’s nose by 90 degrees, how fast is it going and in what direction? I don't know how fast, but depending on which axis it rotates on and how fast, it may be going in several directions at once.
    - lowbloodsugar 3y ago
      Lol, right?
mulmen 3y ago
There’s an entire rabbit hole of dual stick setups for space games. Quack HOSAS to get started.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Ok Quack is adorkable. What would be the word for "To Kagi"? They use "Fetch" in the search field, but it hasn't really stuck with me.
  - master-lincoln 3y ago
    Why mention the provider instead of using the verb you use the provider for? You want to "search" for something. You wouldn't say I am AT&Ting or AOLing for browsing the internet or Honda-ing / Ducati-ing for using the motorcycle
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - mulmen 3y ago
      Sorry I forgot fun died with web 1.0. I’ll try to be more cynical in the future.
sillysaurusx 3y ago
One of my fondest memories is when I was 16 or so. I bought a 3D mouse (it’s like a mouse that you can control by waving it around) and taped it onto a hat that said Marines. Then I immediately went into CS: Source and got ready to annihilate everyone. I think I played about the same, but it would’ve been funnier if I’d gotten creamed. The theory was that my head is much more precise than my hands, so using a combination of both should improve my aim. It might sound like you’ll end up looking left and trying to see out of the corner of your eye, but in practice the two-mouse system ends up working out. I’ve always wanted to revive the idea for modern times, but you end up looking like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head. I like that style though. Your idea sounds way cool. You should make it!
- pxndxx 3y ago
  Modern consoles (and modern controllers I assume) can do this "double-input" for aiming, using a joystick and a gyroscope. I'm still bad at shooters, but it feels super good. Plus you don't look like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head.
  - ornornor 3y ago
    > look like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head. What do you mean? I do get stares at the grocery store or on the street occasionally but no one ever mentioned anything.
blechinger 3y ago
The folks at Sublight Dynamics had a really neat product in this vein that I was excited about. Seems like the perfect flightsim controller. They had trouble getting fully to market. Website is still up though so I'm holding out hope!
Matumio 3y ago
If you like the puzzle of firing thrusters manually, try "ΔV: Rings of Saturn". The game is 2D, but you get six keys to individually fire different thruster combos, and a separate key to fire the main engine. Then try staying in control with an unbalanced ship, or after you inevitably smashed one of the thrusters into a rock. It's a pretty space-nerd game too, they simulate details like reaction wheel saturation.
Terretta 3y ago
> I couldn't help but think that there must be a better way to control a spaceship: your ship can pitch, yaw, and roll ... in 6 directions. 15 years later and I'm still convinced that the SpaceOrb 360 is THE GREATEST GAME CONTROLER OF ALL TIME. See what I did with the all cap there? It's the G.O.A.T. and it's a tragedy that it lost the battle to "WASD" keyboard and mouse gaming and the "two thumbs" style of controller. If you've ever tried a SpaceOrb, you probably already know this. If you didn't live through the SpaceOrb's hayday (around 1994-5 with the original Quake, and Descent, truly one of the greatest games ever) then this post will sound like I'm a crotchety old dude trying desperately to relive my the golden hour of my youth. Ok, so you got me. What of it? ;) https://www.hanselman.com/blog/the-best-controller-for-fps-a-spacetec-spaceorb-360-controller-working-with-windows-7-using-arduino-and-orbshield https://www.hanselman.com/blog/the-best-controller-for-fps-a... Degrees of freedom: https://hanselmanblogcontent.azureedge.net/WindowsLiveWriter/20yearoldSpaceTecSpaceOrb360Controllerwo_2425/SpaceOrb-axes_0d6d48aa-f942-4885-a180-a8ffcb6d08a0.jpg https://hanselmanblogcontent.azureedge.net/WindowsLiveWriter... I had purchased a box of these when they were going away, and sponsored a custom driver. For a while there were other solutions available, like OrbShield: // via SeedStudio: https://www.seeedstudio.com/Orbshield-v1-0-kit-p-671.html?queryID=bb90cfeed53fd2dfead8a20f65f351d6&objectID=1886&indexName=bazaar_retailer_products https://www.seeedstudio.com/Orbshield-v1-0-kit-p-671.html?qu... // via Tindie: https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-4/ https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-...
paraxion 3y ago
Reading your comment with the linked project in mind, I started thinking about the idea of a “glove holding a sphere” sort of control system: the glove is the substrate for the ArUco codes, but the sphere could contain the accelerometers, but could also contain gyroscopes to provide inertial feedback? I don’t know anywhere enough about either technology but I imagine controlling a ship in 3d space would be a constant fight against inertia, and it would be awesome to feel that.

squigz 3y ago

This is why 2 sticks is a fairly common setup for space games

Arelius 3y ago

I still hold onto my SpaceOrb369 for this sort of game. There is a guy that makes a converter to make it work over USB... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceOrb_360 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceOrb_360 https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-4/ https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-...

myself248 3y ago
I have the slightly newer version, branded by HP as the SpacePilot, and use it daily in Fusion 360 CAD. It has a native USB connection, and 6 user-definable hotkeys below an unimpressive LCD. It requires some old drivers that aren't officially supported (why would they remove support for perfectly good hardware from the newer drivers? To send good stuff to the landfill, of course!), but when Autodesk tried to move Fusion to the new driver model exclusively, user outcry persuaded them to leave the old drivers in as an option. Apparently there's quite a few of us using those SpacePilots, and the phrase "from my cold, dead fingers" comes up not infrequently.
- w-ll 3y ago
  I plugged in my old SpacePilot Pro the other day and was so dissapointed that the drivers where so outdated, and like nothing was working.
- Arelius 3y ago
  For sure, the HP one is a rebrand of the 3Dconnexion right? Those are great, but nothing really compares to the original SpaceOrb360 controller form-factor for gaming IMO.
  - myself248 3y ago
    Yup, as far as I can tell the HP one is literally just a sticker and a different splash screen when the LCD powers up, it's otherwise 100% identical to the 3dconnexion original. Just slightly cheaper because of keyword search. I haven't used the SpaceOrb360 but it looks like it would be a lot of wrist strain to hold it and use it for long periods. But I like the button placement under the right hand... hmm. With the SpacePilot, I have my right hand on the keyboard or mouse so I can bind whatever buttons I want, and I suppose I could one-hand a regular controller and get A/B/X/Y/stick/triggers in my right hand instead. Hmm. Would that be easier on the wrists than melding the two together? I'm not sure. It would certainly give me more buttons to play with...
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
If you weren’t playing Descent with this you were losing.

tadfisher 3y ago

In the sci-fi series The Expanse, the Rocinante is controlled in part by a 3DConnexion SpaceMouse, commonly used in CAD and 3D modeling.

pests 3y ago

I always imagined a sphere suspended / held by a minimum number of strings (or rods?) / attachments. By physically pushing, pulling, and twisting the sphere you could detect these movements via compression and tension in the attachments. You could motorize those strings/rods to give resistence and feedback to the piloting.

bloopernova 3y ago
Yeah that's almost exactly what I was daydreaming of! Weaker gyroscopes might mean a ship can rotate in one direction slower than others, and feedback to a controller could model that for the user.

navane 3y ago

this 6dof "joystick" has been around for decades: https://3dconnexion.com/nl/spacemouse/ https://3dconnexion.com/nl/spacemouse/

two_handfuls 3y ago
This. Sadly the drivers suck.
- Isthatablackgsd 3y ago
  Would it help with scripting macro software such as AutoHotKey? I imagine it wouldn't pick up some inputs due to proprietary driver. It have the same issue for my Logitech G600 that it can't pick up some inputs. I set up the macros in LGHUB with keystrokes (multiple modifiers with keys) and use AHK to grab those and expands the capabilities of my G600 than what LGHUB offers.
  - two_handfuls 3y ago
    Exactly, the inputs aren’t exposed as extra axes so those tools don’t see them.
    - Isthatablackgsd 3y ago
      Could it help if the driver have those axes assigned to a different key to allow AHK to pick that up and AHK can change it as axes? I done that with my XP-PEN AC-19, I assigned the dial wheel to different keys in XP-PEN software and AutoHotInterception with AHK to pick that up. Then assigned it with wheelup/down depending on what active window I am on.
      - two_handfuls 3y ago
        It does not expose it as a key either. You must link their proprietary driver (and sign some legal document) that then gives you an API you can use to read the position of the spaceball.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> I couldn't help but think that there must be a better way to control a spaceship Two sticks? https://old.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/16xi20a/dual_stick_hosas_cam_viper_time/ https://old.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/16xi20a/dua... https://youtu.be/T2-IHgNYaKA https://youtu.be/T2-IHgNYaKA

jessriedel 3y ago
Yep. I played Descent II this way and it was glorious.
bloopernova 3y ago
That's really nice, before now I hadn't really understood how to use 2 sticks, but now it makes sense. I used a CH Pro throttle, which has enough hats to sort of mimic that 2 stick action. Main throttle back forward for main engine and retros. A smaller thumb stick/hat for each of Y and Z axis. https://www.chproducts.com/Pro-Throttle-v13-d-719.html https://www.chproducts.com/Pro-Throttle-v13-d-719.html
- sundvor 3y ago
  That works wonderfully with VKB's STECS, which lets you swap physical detent profiles in roughly 20 seconds. So you have a forward/backward axis on your throttle with a well defined "W" centre point, plus a high quality thumb stick for your lateral/vertical thrusters. (In case anyone is wondering, I transitioned from the Warthog throttle with DeltaSim's slew mod with zero issues, I find the STECS Standard way more versatile and flexible). I couple this with a Gunfighter Ultimate stick (V3), and Crosswinds pedals, all profile mounted. (My GFU grip has twist, but I don't use it.) When you add TrackIR in my case (or VR for others), there's quite a bit of immersion going on! :-) I play DCS and Star Citizen these days, also used to fly Elite Dangerous though. Building the combined quad screen workstation / simrig has been a wonderful side project over the past few years. ;)

userbinator 3y ago

Given that a spaceship isn't all that different from a fixed-wing aircraft, and the stick + pedals arrangement has become a standard for controlling the latter for over a century, I think it'd be hard to improve on.

marcellus23 3y ago
The difference is that spaceships have thrusters, so they have the ability to accelerate up, down, left, or right, in addition to all the controls of a fixed-wing aircraft (throttle + stick + pedals).
hooverd 3y ago
With no gravity or drag they're way different.
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
Do fixed wing aircraft spend a lot of the time going backwards? Do they, for example, need to turn around and point their engine in the direction of travel in order to slow down? If a fixed wing accelerates to 1000mph and then rotates it’s nose by 90 degrees, how fast is it going and in what direction? What about a space craft?
- nkrisc 3y ago
  > If a fixed wing accelerates to 1000mph and then rotates it’s nose by 90 degrees, how fast is it going and in what direction? I don't know how fast, but depending on which axis it rotates on and how fast, it may be going in several directions at once.
  - lowbloodsugar 3y ago
    Lol, right?

mulmen 3y ago

There’s an entire rabbit hole of dual stick setups for space games. Quack HOSAS to get started.

bloopernova 3y ago
Ok Quack is adorkable. What would be the word for "To Kagi"? They use "Fetch" in the search field, but it hasn't really stuck with me.
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  Why mention the provider instead of using the verb you use the provider for? You want to "search" for something. You wouldn't say I am AT&Ting or AOLing for browsing the internet or Honda-ing / Ducati-ing for using the motorcycle
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - mulmen 3y ago
    Sorry I forgot fun died with web 1.0. I’ll try to be more cynical in the future.

sillysaurusx 3y ago

One of my fondest memories is when I was 16 or so. I bought a 3D mouse (it’s like a mouse that you can control by waving it around) and taped it onto a hat that said Marines. Then I immediately went into CS: Source and got ready to annihilate everyone. I think I played about the same, but it would’ve been funnier if I’d gotten creamed. The theory was that my head is much more precise than my hands, so using a combination of both should improve my aim. It might sound like you’ll end up looking left and trying to see out of the corner of your eye, but in practice the two-mouse system ends up working out. I’ve always wanted to revive the idea for modern times, but you end up looking like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head. I like that style though. Your idea sounds way cool. You should make it!

pxndxx 3y ago
Modern consoles (and modern controllers I assume) can do this "double-input" for aiming, using a joystick and a gyroscope. I'm still bad at shooters, but it feels super good. Plus you don't look like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head.
- ornornor 3y ago
  > look like a huge dork with a dildo glued to your head. What do you mean? I do get stares at the grocery store or on the street occasionally but no one ever mentioned anything.

blechinger 3y ago

The folks at Sublight Dynamics had a really neat product in this vein that I was excited about. Seems like the perfect flightsim controller. They had trouble getting fully to market. Website is still up though so I'm holding out hope!

Matumio 3y ago

If you like the puzzle of firing thrusters manually, try "ΔV: Rings of Saturn". The game is 2D, but you get six keys to individually fire different thruster combos, and a separate key to fire the main engine. Then try staying in control with an unbalanced ship, or after you inevitably smashed one of the thrusters into a rock. It's a pretty space-nerd game too, they simulate details like reaction wheel saturation.

Terretta 3y ago

> I couldn't help but think that there must be a better way to control a spaceship: your ship can pitch, yaw, and roll ... in 6 directions. 15 years later and I'm still convinced that the SpaceOrb 360 is THE GREATEST GAME CONTROLER OF ALL TIME. See what I did with the all cap there? It's the G.O.A.T. and it's a tragedy that it lost the battle to "WASD" keyboard and mouse gaming and the "two thumbs" style of controller. If you've ever tried a SpaceOrb, you probably already know this. If you didn't live through the SpaceOrb's hayday (around 1994-5 with the original Quake, and Descent, truly one of the greatest games ever) then this post will sound like I'm a crotchety old dude trying desperately to relive my the golden hour of my youth. Ok, so you got me. What of it? ;) https://www.hanselman.com/blog/the-best-controller-for-fps-a-spacetec-spaceorb-360-controller-working-with-windows-7-using-arduino-and-orbshield https://www.hanselman.com/blog/the-best-controller-for-fps-a... Degrees of freedom: https://hanselmanblogcontent.azureedge.net/WindowsLiveWriter/20yearoldSpaceTecSpaceOrb360Controllerwo_2425/SpaceOrb-axes_0d6d48aa-f942-4885-a180-a8ffcb6d08a0.jpg https://hanselmanblogcontent.azureedge.net/WindowsLiveWriter... I had purchased a box of these when they were going away, and sponsored a custom driver. For a while there were other solutions available, like OrbShield: // via SeedStudio: https://www.seeedstudio.com/Orbshield-v1-0-kit-p-671.html?queryID=bb90cfeed53fd2dfead8a20f65f351d6&objectID=1886&indexName=bazaar_retailer_products https://www.seeedstudio.com/Orbshield-v1-0-kit-p-671.html?qu... // via Tindie: https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-4/ https://www.tindie.com/products/vputz/orbotron-9001-version-...

paraxion 3y ago

Reading your comment with the linked project in mind, I started thinking about the idea of a “glove holding a sphere” sort of control system: the glove is the substrate for the ArUco codes, but the sphere could contain the accelerometers, but could also contain gyroscopes to provide inertial feedback? I don’t know anywhere enough about either technology but I imagine controlling a ship in 3d space would be a constant fight against inertia, and it would be awesome to feel that.