6 ms·

Are compostable coffee cups any better for the environment?

37 points by adrian_mrd 3y ago

tinus_hn 3y ago
So the goal should be compostable cups that are actually composted. There might be some arguments against the cups if they are not composted, but if you don’t start with the compostable cups you will never reach the goal of compostable cups that are actually composted.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  Yes, that would help. But the ultimate goal is less single-use cups. Places like Starbucks, McDonald's, etc. are missing a marketing opportunity.
- crote 3y ago
  Even that isn't certain. Composting results in the emission of greenhouse gases too - most notable methane which is a 25x stronger GHG than CO2. Best-case scenario, it'll decompose into CO2. But then you have to look at the actual product. Plastic coffee cups are really flimsy, and compostable cups seem to be quite a lot sturdier. When it is getting turned into CO2 anyways, it is better to use a cup which uses less overall material - which would mean a plastic one. A similar argument applies to paper packaging: just because you can recycle or compost it, doesn't mean it is actually good for the environment. The main goal of reducing single-use plastic is to deal with people just throwing it away on the street or in nature, resulting in animals trying to eat it and dying. When it comes to climate change, using plastic and simply incinerating the waste is probably the better option.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Methane SHOULD be easy to capture and it is valuable. mostly as fuel, but still better than putting it into the air.
  - verve_rat 3y ago
    Or using compostable materials and putting them in the landfill. If you use plants to capture carbon and make stuff out of that carbon, and then bury it in the ground, that has to be the best case scenario for climate change, right?
    - fomine3 3y ago
      Even if it's made from CO2, it's not net neutral for GWP perspective.
  - tinus_hn 3y ago
    If you create a cup from plant material and then after use compost it into plant soil again, using the cup is as bad as a plant growing and dying. Growing plants is not bad for the environment. Taking oil out of the ground, making it into plastic using energy and chemicals and then after use dumping it into a landfill is bad for the environment.
  - RetroTechie 3y ago
    > Composting results in the emission of greenhouse gases too - most notable methane which is a 25x stronger GHG than CO2. Methane is produced when 'bio' waste breaks down in anearobic environment. Composting is an aerobic process. So yeah, CO2 produced there. But significantly less harmful than what happens to the same stuff in a landfill. Although in that case, methane may be captured. Of course never 100%. Perhaps far from it.
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  Compostable cups that are sealed away and not composted are literal carbon sequestration. Same with plastics in a landfill, too, FWIW. Better waste collection, and good landfill practice is the best bang for the buck, IMO.
- lmm 3y ago
  The goal is low emissions. If compostable cups cause more emissions than non-compostable cups at realistic rates of composting, that's what matters; a theoretically better future rarely excuses a worse present.
Ajay-p 3y ago
I have read that composable and biodegradable items will not degrade when they are thrown into municipal waste. This is because the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose. Is this still true? I suppose it would reason that if they were indeed compost-able they could, but not in an anaerobic environment.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  > the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose What's the plan then? Keep accumulating airtight containers of waste forever?
  - AussieWog93 3y ago
    I know our council (Monash) accepts compostable items in the green waste, and this is being rolled out gradually everywhere. Don't remember the exact dates, but I think there are plans to make it a nationwide thing by 2030. (Read the article, looks like the cups contain PFAS too, which could be damaging to health if used to grow food...)
    - scruple 3y ago
      We were given a green waste bin a few years ago. We use it, but I've always wondered... I doubt anyone is sorting through this waste in any useful sense. How in the world would we ever prevent cross-contimination between non-green waste and green waste? My neighbor, she's well meaning, but she puts her green waste into regular trash bags and chucks it into the green waste bin. That's been going on for 3 years now. I've mentioned it to her and she doesn't seem to get it.
      - toast0 3y ago
        Green waste goes into some sort of composting system. Maybe a bit of compacting on the truck which can break open some of the bags (but doesn't break all of them), then however many days of stick it in a pile, mix up the pile/stick it in a new pile, then filter for big pieces: everything small is organic compost, big items remaining in the compost get resorted. Your local waste hauler may do compost giveaways in conjunction with your sanitary district. If so, that's where that compost product goes and if you use it, you'll see some small non-organic materials make it through, including bits of plastic bags; but the process means they can label it organic compost.
throw0101b 3y ago
Related: "K-Cup creator John Sylvan regrets inventing Keurig coffee pod system": * https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/k-cup-creator-john-sylvan-regrets-inventing-keurig-coffee-pod-system-1.2982660 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/k-cup-creator-john-sylvan-r... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keurig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keurig For single-serve coffee, hard to go wrong with the Clever Dripper, which doesn't take much technique (just put in water first then coffee grounds) and uses standard #4 filters: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOdennxP24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOdennxP24
- jahnu 3y ago
  Yes! I used an Aeropress for many years and was shocked that the Clever Dripper made noticeably better coffee. Water first makes more consistent coffee indeed. Just gently stir the floating grinds a little to mix them in. For the filters I found Melita Mild to be best (of course depends where you live if you can get them or similar/better)
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    The Aeropress can do good things, but not following the official recipe. James Hoffman has a nice technique (backed by a lot of experimentation) that works well for me. But for minimal fuss and consistent results, I agree that something like the clever dripper, a French press, or a "slow flowing" V-shape pourover are the best options. That said, I don't think "water first" makes much difference. It's a matter of long contact time guaranteeing good extraction, and eliminating the need to worry about precise grind size.
    - throw0101b 3y ago
      > That said, I don't think "water first" makes much difference. Hoffman thinks otherwise and explicitly goes over it in the video.
- Confiks 3y ago
  > For single-serve coffee (...) and uses standard #4 filters Automated machine here [1] (except putting the filter in, and coffee and water every ten cups). Seems to be the only one of its kind as far as I'm aware. [1] https://severin.com/en-en/coffee/coffee-maker-coffee/coffee-maker/ka-4850-fully-automatic-filter-coffee-machine-filka/ https://severin.com/en-en/coffee/coffee-maker-coffee/coffee-...
ubermonkey 3y ago
I misread that as "combustible" and had a very different reaction than the rest of you, I suspect. Anyway. A few years ago a good coffeeshop near me tried a new brand of some VERY compostable cups. They were so compostable, in fact, that they would often degrade to the point of failure BEFORE I FINISHED MY COFFEE. Double- or triple-cupping would prevent this, but presumably that also undoes whatever other benefits were accruing, so they switched back.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  This is my problem with the paper straws that are now ubiquitous. They're not a problem if you drink your soda in ten minutes, but if you want to sip on your iced coffee all morning? Uh oh.
theshrike79 3y ago
People always seem to forget Reduce Reuse Recycle. Recycle is the last option for a reason, because it's the last and worst case scenario. We need to use less coffee cups and if possible reuse them. That's the solution.
- medell 3y ago
  This. Only 5% of post-consumer plastic waste in the US was recycled in 2021.
- smegsicle 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - maxmouchet 3y ago
    The same way glasses in restaurants are washed and reused :-) Another solution is to bring your own cup.
  - loeg 3y ago
    I reuse the same coffee cup every day. Dishwashers are great.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      My dad always told me that dishwashers are the things at the end of your arms. I'm guessing that's not what you mean though. However, do you run your dishwasher daily? If you're a single person living alone, that's a lot of dishes!
      - loeg 3y ago
        My two year-old and wife go through plenty of dishes, too.
        dylan604 3y ago
        "My two year-old and wife" != "a single person living alone" in any language I'm familiar with
somishere 3y ago
If we're talking emissions and coffee then another important aspect is the source / growing practices / distance travelled of the beans. Better labelling around these kind of aspects would better balance the current cafe decision matrix of blend / extraction type / roasting characteristics.
- dendrite9 3y ago
  I wonder if there's measurable benefit to reducing shipping weight by roasting closer to the source?
  - somishere 3y ago
    I mean, if you're not shipping the weight of the water then how could there not be? Tho I guess it would come at the expense of local artisan roasteries ... Honestly though, I think conscientious / well regulated labeling can do a lot of heavy lifting when done correctly. Especially for highlighting what factors you should be considering, rather than those that are being promoted. Let market forces lead to "source-roasting" and other innovative improvements.

37 points by adrian_mrd 3y ago

So the goal should be compostable cups that are actually composted. There might be some arguments against the cups if they are not composted, but if you don’t start with the compostable cups you will never reach the goal of compostable cups that are actually composted.

chiefalchemist 3y ago
Yes, that would help. But the ultimate goal is less single-use cups. Places like Starbucks, McDonald's, etc. are missing a marketing opportunity.
crote 3y ago
Even that isn't certain. Composting results in the emission of greenhouse gases too - most notable methane which is a 25x stronger GHG than CO2. Best-case scenario, it'll decompose into CO2. But then you have to look at the actual product. Plastic coffee cups are really flimsy, and compostable cups seem to be quite a lot sturdier. When it is getting turned into CO2 anyways, it is better to use a cup which uses less overall material - which would mean a plastic one. A similar argument applies to paper packaging: just because you can recycle or compost it, doesn't mean it is actually good for the environment. The main goal of reducing single-use plastic is to deal with people just throwing it away on the street or in nature, resulting in animals trying to eat it and dying. When it comes to climate change, using plastic and simply incinerating the waste is probably the better option.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Methane SHOULD be easy to capture and it is valuable. mostly as fuel, but still better than putting it into the air.
- verve_rat 3y ago
  Or using compostable materials and putting them in the landfill. If you use plants to capture carbon and make stuff out of that carbon, and then bury it in the ground, that has to be the best case scenario for climate change, right?
  - fomine3 3y ago
    Even if it's made from CO2, it's not net neutral for GWP perspective.
- tinus_hn 3y ago
  If you create a cup from plant material and then after use compost it into plant soil again, using the cup is as bad as a plant growing and dying. Growing plants is not bad for the environment. Taking oil out of the ground, making it into plastic using energy and chemicals and then after use dumping it into a landfill is bad for the environment.
- RetroTechie 3y ago
  > Composting results in the emission of greenhouse gases too - most notable methane which is a 25x stronger GHG than CO2. Methane is produced when 'bio' waste breaks down in anearobic environment. Composting is an aerobic process. So yeah, CO2 produced there. But significantly less harmful than what happens to the same stuff in a landfill. Although in that case, methane may be captured. Of course never 100%. Perhaps far from it.
Baeocystin 3y ago
Compostable cups that are sealed away and not composted are literal carbon sequestration. Same with plastics in a landfill, too, FWIW. Better waste collection, and good landfill practice is the best bang for the buck, IMO.
lmm 3y ago
The goal is low emissions. If compostable cups cause more emissions than non-compostable cups at realistic rates of composting, that's what matters; a theoretically better future rarely excuses a worse present.

Ajay-p 3y ago

I have read that composable and biodegradable items will not degrade when they are thrown into municipal waste. This is because the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose. Is this still true? I suppose it would reason that if they were indeed compost-able they could, but not in an anaerobic environment.

cassianoleal 3y ago
> the waste is sealed in massive containers and without oxygen they will not decompose What's the plan then? Keep accumulating airtight containers of waste forever?
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  I know our council (Monash) accepts compostable items in the green waste, and this is being rolled out gradually everywhere. Don't remember the exact dates, but I think there are plans to make it a nationwide thing by 2030. (Read the article, looks like the cups contain PFAS too, which could be damaging to health if used to grow food...)
  - scruple 3y ago
    We were given a green waste bin a few years ago. We use it, but I've always wondered... I doubt anyone is sorting through this waste in any useful sense. How in the world would we ever prevent cross-contimination between non-green waste and green waste? My neighbor, she's well meaning, but she puts her green waste into regular trash bags and chucks it into the green waste bin. That's been going on for 3 years now. I've mentioned it to her and she doesn't seem to get it.
    - toast0 3y ago
      Green waste goes into some sort of composting system. Maybe a bit of compacting on the truck which can break open some of the bags (but doesn't break all of them), then however many days of stick it in a pile, mix up the pile/stick it in a new pile, then filter for big pieces: everything small is organic compost, big items remaining in the compost get resorted. Your local waste hauler may do compost giveaways in conjunction with your sanitary district. If so, that's where that compost product goes and if you use it, you'll see some small non-organic materials make it through, including bits of plastic bags; but the process means they can label it organic compost.

throw0101b 3y ago

Related: "K-Cup creator John Sylvan regrets inventing Keurig coffee pod system": * https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/k-cup-creator-john-sylvan-regrets-inventing-keurig-coffee-pod-system-1.2982660 https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/k-cup-creator-john-sylvan-r... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keurig https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keurig For single-serve coffee, hard to go wrong with the Clever Dripper, which doesn't take much technique (just put in water first then coffee grounds) and uses standard #4 filters: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOdennxP24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpOdennxP24

jahnu 3y ago
Yes! I used an Aeropress for many years and was shocked that the Clever Dripper made noticeably better coffee. Water first makes more consistent coffee indeed. Just gently stir the floating grinds a little to mix them in. For the filters I found Melita Mild to be best (of course depends where you live if you can get them or similar/better)
- nerdponx 3y ago
  The Aeropress can do good things, but not following the official recipe. James Hoffman has a nice technique (backed by a lot of experimentation) that works well for me. But for minimal fuss and consistent results, I agree that something like the clever dripper, a French press, or a "slow flowing" V-shape pourover are the best options. That said, I don't think "water first" makes much difference. It's a matter of long contact time guaranteeing good extraction, and eliminating the need to worry about precise grind size.
  - throw0101b 3y ago
    > That said, I don't think "water first" makes much difference. Hoffman thinks otherwise and explicitly goes over it in the video.
Confiks 3y ago
> For single-serve coffee (...) and uses standard #4 filters Automated machine here [1] (except putting the filter in, and coffee and water every ten cups). Seems to be the only one of its kind as far as I'm aware. [1] https://severin.com/en-en/coffee/coffee-maker-coffee/coffee-maker/ka-4850-fully-automatic-filter-coffee-machine-filka/ https://severin.com/en-en/coffee/coffee-maker-coffee/coffee-...

ubermonkey 3y ago

I misread that as "combustible" and had a very different reaction than the rest of you, I suspect. Anyway. A few years ago a good coffeeshop near me tried a new brand of some VERY compostable cups. They were so compostable, in fact, that they would often degrade to the point of failure BEFORE I FINISHED MY COFFEE. Double- or triple-cupping would prevent this, but presumably that also undoes whatever other benefits were accruing, so they switched back.

crazygringo 3y ago
This is my problem with the paper straws that are now ubiquitous. They're not a problem if you drink your soda in ten minutes, but if you want to sip on your iced coffee all morning? Uh oh.

theshrike79 3y ago

People always seem to forget Reduce Reuse Recycle. Recycle is the last option for a reason, because it's the last and worst case scenario. We need to use less coffee cups and if possible reuse them. That's the solution.

medell 3y ago
This. Only 5% of post-consumer plastic waste in the US was recycled in 2021.
smegsicle 3y ago
[flagged]
- maxmouchet 3y ago
  The same way glasses in restaurants are washed and reused :-) Another solution is to bring your own cup.
- loeg 3y ago
  I reuse the same coffee cup every day. Dishwashers are great.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    My dad always told me that dishwashers are the things at the end of your arms. I'm guessing that's not what you mean though. However, do you run your dishwasher daily? If you're a single person living alone, that's a lot of dishes!
    - loeg 3y ago
      My two year-old and wife go through plenty of dishes, too.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        "My two year-old and wife" != "a single person living alone" in any language I'm familiar with

somishere 3y ago

If we're talking emissions and coffee then another important aspect is the source / growing practices / distance travelled of the beans. Better labelling around these kind of aspects would better balance the current cafe decision matrix of blend / extraction type / roasting characteristics.

dendrite9 3y ago
I wonder if there's measurable benefit to reducing shipping weight by roasting closer to the source?
- somishere 3y ago
  I mean, if you're not shipping the weight of the water then how could there not be? Tho I guess it would come at the expense of local artisan roasteries ... Honestly though, I think conscientious / well regulated labeling can do a lot of heavy lifting when done correctly. Especially for highlighting what factors you should be considering, rather than those that are being promoted. Let market forces lead to "source-roasting" and other innovative improvements.