41 ms·

These sweetheart taxation deals should stop in Ireland and other tax havens. It benefits none; although on paper it looks that Ireland is doing too well, the re

These sweetheart taxation deals should stop in Ireland and other tax havens. It benefits none; although on paper it looks that Ireland is doing too well, the reality is not that rosy for its residents.

qaq 3y ago
Apple employees a ton of people in Ireland same as pretty much all top tier tech companies. Outside of crazy real estate prices Ireland is actually doing pretty well.
- isaacremuant 3y ago
  Employing lots of foreigners who pay insane rent prices and are taxed heavily doesn't really benefit anyone else other than home owners who already were fleecing people due to the lack of construction. Ireland is doing well as a country in GDP terms (ignoring debt) but the people in the mid and lower tiers don't necessarily do well at all. It's increasingly classist and it has bad and inefficient healthcare, lack of police, excessive bureocracy and lack of political change due to an entrenched political class. Ireland, it's only doing well for some and only in the surface. Corrupt to an unbelievable degree if you actually see it up close, and not through layers of numbers and "process".
  - turbo_fart 3y ago
    Ireland is doing well directly because of extremely clever biz Dev Irish people who made Ireland top tech and biotech centre in the entire world.
    - nikhilsimha 3y ago
      /s in the end? (genuine question)
      - andrepd 3y ago
        I'm pretty sure. They're poking fun at people who see the billions in tax dodge BEPS schemes included in Ireland GDP and think it has any bearing in reality.
    - skyyler 3y ago
      the point is that this is only benefiting those that already have money A bunch of foreigners showing up to pay more than you can for rent is not a good thing.
      - qaq 3y ago
        Ireland has pretty good education system while there are certainly immigrants a large % of positions is actually occupied by people born in Ireland.
  - qaq 3y ago
    I lived in Ireland for 4 years can't say I share your sentiment
    - isaacremuant 3y ago
      Great arguments. I'm convinced.
      - qaq 3y ago
        I have a personal experiences which granted might not be much, but it certainly beats just making things up.
  - closewith 3y ago
    > Ireland is doing well as a country in GDP terms (ignoring debt) but the people in the mid and lower tiers don't necessarily do well at all. Compared to what? Certainly not the Ireland of 25 years ago. > It's increasingly classist and it has bad and inefficient healthcare, lack of police, excessive bureocracy and lack of political change due to an entrenched political class. The only country in the EU where wealth inequality is decreasing, which has a struggling healthcare system but world-class outcomes, once of the least bureaucratic countries in the world, and which has a stable democracy which is about to undergo a completely peaceful transfer of power when Sinn Féin comes into power following the next election. I can only say that if you believe what you've written about Ireland, you simply don't have the perspective to comment on this.
    - isaacremuant 3y ago
      Compared to today. Compared to 5 years ago. Compared to 15 years ago. Citation needed and the "peaceful transition" is laughable as a selling point. Is the bar so low? Lol. It'll be grand land has yet another defender that wants people to not rock the boat and attacks anyone who showcases how backwards thing are. Talk to a real person and not one who has their life easily laid out... Perspective, huh? Shame on your disingenuous response.
      - closewith 3y ago
        > Compared to today. Compared to 5 years ago. Compared to 15 years ago. So your contention is that Ireland hasn't improved since 2018 or 2003? For almost everyone in almost every category, that is not true. > Citation needed and the "peaceful transition" is laughable as a selling point. Is the bar so low? Lol. No, the bar is very high as Ireland is one of the top tier countries in the world to live by almost any measure. That was a direct response to your claim of a "lack of political change due to an entrenched political class", which is patently untrue in Ireland. > It'll be grand land has yet another defender that wants people to not rock the boat and attacks anyone who showcases how backwards thing are. Ireland is certainly not perfect. I work in the medical field and am constantly frustrated at the medical and social services. However, I've also worked around the world and know that while Ireland is in fact an outlier, it's a positive outlier compared to even the developed world. > Talk to a real person and not one who has their life easily laid out... I do, daily, and not only online. The kind of disingenuous negativity you hold is not common. > Perspective, huh? Shame on your disingenuous response. The irony is palpable. Luckily those of us working to improve the country aren't discouraged by those on the sidelines offering only empty critiques.
  - anonymousDan 3y ago
    This is just... nonsense. You need to get around a bit more if you don't think the quality of life in Ireland is high in comparison to most places in the world.
ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
I agree - it's a race to the bottom if different countries compete to provide global corporations the lowest tax bill.
- foooorsyth 3y ago
  That’s exactly how it should be. Without nation to nation competition, taxes would be even more outrageous than they already are. The institution that monopolizes violence in order to tax should be at the very least threatened by the risk of losing its constituents to other nations/regions that offer a better deal.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    You missed the memonof a global minimum corporate tax, thatbia being implemented rihht now, didn't you? It seems the majoroty of people, and governments, have not too much interest to exist in a world of unlimited capitalism only benefiting the largest corporations and richest of people.
    - kyrra 3y ago
      Republicans in the US are not on bored. They are threatening retaliation if EU countries move forward with it. https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-lawmakers-europe-global-corporate-tax-janet-yellen-jason-smith-49e0d910 https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-lawmakers-europe-global-c...
      - hef19898 3y ago
        And what exactly can tje GOP do? Unless they win the White House, in which case I guess even NATO membership of the US woupd be on the table, right? Just remind me, how well did tue last GOP trade war with China go?
    - justinzollars 3y ago
      Simply one election away, from any sovereign country on earth, from disappearing.
psychlops 3y ago
Someone is benefitting or it wouldn't happen.
- pornel 3y ago
  It's a problem like the prisoner dilemma. It's beneficial to the country that "deflects" and gives a discount, but makes everyone worse off than if all countries held line on a higher tax rate. (disclaimer: I mean it from a direct perspective of maximizing tax income. In this comment I'm not getting into the deeper economics/politics/philosophy of whether higher or lower taxes are better overall).
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  It obviously benefits Apple shareholders.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
closewith 3y ago
The reality in Ireland is still that Ireland is a wealthy, stable, safe, educated liberal democracy, which is not at all what it was when I was young. Although suffering from the same housing-, cost-of-living-, refugee-, and public-service-crises as most other Western nations, its path has been extremely successful and beneficial to its citizens. I think you might just be too young and too insulated to see how successful the policies have been.
- tejinderss 3y ago
  > how successful the policies have been. I don't know how these “successful” policies are sustainable if they are not playing level field with the rest of EU.
  - closewith 3y ago
    Well, they are not sustainable, but Ireland no longer relies on them, so it's a moot point. The policies enabled the rapid development over a 25 year period and as the country became richer and the progress became self-sustaining, the arrangements were discontinued. For example, the "Double Irish" arrangement, which is the subject of this case, was only in use up to 2014 (and was modelled on and often paired with the "Dutch Sandwich" BEPS arrangement, so you should note that Ireland wasn't the only EU country playing these games). It was this case that closed the Double Irish arrangement and while "Green Jersey"/CAIA partially took it's place, the legitimate tax take was already more than sustainable. Now that Ireland has agreed to a global minimum corporate tax (CT) rate, it's likely that the CT take in Ireland will fall over time, but the inflated CT take of recent years has been treated as a windfall and not current income.
    - tejinderss 3y ago
      > Ireland no longer relies on them If Ireland has closed all the loopholes then why do the phantom exports (US subsidiary buying IPs) account for 38% of total exports of this year? > Now that Ireland has agreed to a global minimum corporate tax (CT) rate. Provided that they dont find another loophole. Edit: Someone asked for baseline, the phantom exports were 6 billion in 2012, they are 134 billion this year. https://www.businesspost.ie/news/irish-phantom-exports-surge-to-e134-billion/ https://www.businesspost.ie/news/irish-phantom-exports-surge...

qaq 3y ago

Apple employees a ton of people in Ireland same as pretty much all top tier tech companies. Outside of crazy real estate prices Ireland is actually doing pretty well.

isaacremuant 3y ago
Employing lots of foreigners who pay insane rent prices and are taxed heavily doesn't really benefit anyone else other than home owners who already were fleecing people due to the lack of construction. Ireland is doing well as a country in GDP terms (ignoring debt) but the people in the mid and lower tiers don't necessarily do well at all. It's increasingly classist and it has bad and inefficient healthcare, lack of police, excessive bureocracy and lack of political change due to an entrenched political class. Ireland, it's only doing well for some and only in the surface. Corrupt to an unbelievable degree if you actually see it up close, and not through layers of numbers and "process".
- turbo_fart 3y ago
  Ireland is doing well directly because of extremely clever biz Dev Irish people who made Ireland top tech and biotech centre in the entire world.
  - nikhilsimha 3y ago
    /s in the end? (genuine question)
    - andrepd 3y ago
      I'm pretty sure. They're poking fun at people who see the billions in tax dodge BEPS schemes included in Ireland GDP and think it has any bearing in reality.
  - skyyler 3y ago
    the point is that this is only benefiting those that already have money A bunch of foreigners showing up to pay more than you can for rent is not a good thing.
    - qaq 3y ago
      Ireland has pretty good education system while there are certainly immigrants a large % of positions is actually occupied by people born in Ireland.
- qaq 3y ago
  I lived in Ireland for 4 years can't say I share your sentiment
  - isaacremuant 3y ago
    Great arguments. I'm convinced.
    - qaq 3y ago
      I have a personal experiences which granted might not be much, but it certainly beats just making things up.
- closewith 3y ago
  > Ireland is doing well as a country in GDP terms (ignoring debt) but the people in the mid and lower tiers don't necessarily do well at all. Compared to what? Certainly not the Ireland of 25 years ago. > It's increasingly classist and it has bad and inefficient healthcare, lack of police, excessive bureocracy and lack of political change due to an entrenched political class. The only country in the EU where wealth inequality is decreasing, which has a struggling healthcare system but world-class outcomes, once of the least bureaucratic countries in the world, and which has a stable democracy which is about to undergo a completely peaceful transfer of power when Sinn Féin comes into power following the next election. I can only say that if you believe what you've written about Ireland, you simply don't have the perspective to comment on this.
  - isaacremuant 3y ago
    Compared to today. Compared to 5 years ago. Compared to 15 years ago. Citation needed and the "peaceful transition" is laughable as a selling point. Is the bar so low? Lol. It'll be grand land has yet another defender that wants people to not rock the boat and attacks anyone who showcases how backwards thing are. Talk to a real person and not one who has their life easily laid out... Perspective, huh? Shame on your disingenuous response.
    - closewith 3y ago
      > Compared to today. Compared to 5 years ago. Compared to 15 years ago. So your contention is that Ireland hasn't improved since 2018 or 2003? For almost everyone in almost every category, that is not true. > Citation needed and the "peaceful transition" is laughable as a selling point. Is the bar so low? Lol. No, the bar is very high as Ireland is one of the top tier countries in the world to live by almost any measure. That was a direct response to your claim of a "lack of political change due to an entrenched political class", which is patently untrue in Ireland. > It'll be grand land has yet another defender that wants people to not rock the boat and attacks anyone who showcases how backwards thing are. Ireland is certainly not perfect. I work in the medical field and am constantly frustrated at the medical and social services. However, I've also worked around the world and know that while Ireland is in fact an outlier, it's a positive outlier compared to even the developed world. > Talk to a real person and not one who has their life easily laid out... I do, daily, and not only online. The kind of disingenuous negativity you hold is not common. > Perspective, huh? Shame on your disingenuous response. The irony is palpable. Luckily those of us working to improve the country aren't discouraged by those on the sidelines offering only empty critiques.
- anonymousDan 3y ago
  This is just... nonsense. You need to get around a bit more if you don't think the quality of life in Ireland is high in comparison to most places in the world.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

I agree - it's a race to the bottom if different countries compete to provide global corporations the lowest tax bill.

foooorsyth 3y ago
That’s exactly how it should be. Without nation to nation competition, taxes would be even more outrageous than they already are. The institution that monopolizes violence in order to tax should be at the very least threatened by the risk of losing its constituents to other nations/regions that offer a better deal.
- hef19898 3y ago
  You missed the memonof a global minimum corporate tax, thatbia being implemented rihht now, didn't you? It seems the majoroty of people, and governments, have not too much interest to exist in a world of unlimited capitalism only benefiting the largest corporations and richest of people.
  - kyrra 3y ago
    Republicans in the US are not on bored. They are threatening retaliation if EU countries move forward with it. https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-lawmakers-europe-global-corporate-tax-janet-yellen-jason-smith-49e0d910 https://www.wsj.com/articles/house-lawmakers-europe-global-c...
    - hef19898 3y ago
      And what exactly can tje GOP do? Unless they win the White House, in which case I guess even NATO membership of the US woupd be on the table, right? Just remind me, how well did tue last GOP trade war with China go?
  - justinzollars 3y ago
    Simply one election away, from any sovereign country on earth, from disappearing.

psychlops 3y ago

Someone is benefitting or it wouldn't happen.

pornel 3y ago
It's a problem like the prisoner dilemma. It's beneficial to the country that "deflects" and gives a discount, but makes everyone worse off than if all countries held line on a higher tax rate. (disclaimer: I mean it from a direct perspective of maximizing tax income. In this comment I'm not getting into the deeper economics/politics/philosophy of whether higher or lower taxes are better overall).
onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
It obviously benefits Apple shareholders.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

closewith 3y ago

The reality in Ireland is still that Ireland is a wealthy, stable, safe, educated liberal democracy, which is not at all what it was when I was young. Although suffering from the same housing-, cost-of-living-, refugee-, and public-service-crises as most other Western nations, its path has been extremely successful and beneficial to its citizens. I think you might just be too young and too insulated to see how successful the policies have been.

tejinderss 3y ago
> how successful the policies have been. I don't know how these “successful” policies are sustainable if they are not playing level field with the rest of EU.
- closewith 3y ago
  Well, they are not sustainable, but Ireland no longer relies on them, so it's a moot point. The policies enabled the rapid development over a 25 year period and as the country became richer and the progress became self-sustaining, the arrangements were discontinued. For example, the "Double Irish" arrangement, which is the subject of this case, was only in use up to 2014 (and was modelled on and often paired with the "Dutch Sandwich" BEPS arrangement, so you should note that Ireland wasn't the only EU country playing these games). It was this case that closed the Double Irish arrangement and while "Green Jersey"/CAIA partially took it's place, the legitimate tax take was already more than sustainable. Now that Ireland has agreed to a global minimum corporate tax (CT) rate, it's likely that the CT take in Ireland will fall over time, but the inflated CT take of recent years has been treated as a windfall and not current income.
  - tejinderss 3y ago
    > Ireland no longer relies on them If Ireland has closed all the loopholes then why do the phantom exports (US subsidiary buying IPs) account for 38% of total exports of this year? > Now that Ireland has agreed to a global minimum corporate tax (CT) rate. Provided that they dont find another loophole. Edit: Someone asked for baseline, the phantom exports were 6 billion in 2012, they are 134 billion this year. https://www.businesspost.ie/news/irish-phantom-exports-surge-to-e134-billion/ https://www.businesspost.ie/news/irish-phantom-exports-surge...