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Stepping back, and looking at the situation as a whole: the real problem is a lack of privacy laws. Banks, businesses and employers should be prohibited from sh

Stepping back, and looking at the situation as a whole: the real problem is a lack of privacy laws. Banks, businesses and employers should be prohibited from sharing your personal information with third parties. I live in Switzerland, where this is the case. Even the government doesn't get this information. If the government thinks you're cheating on your taxes, they have to use warrants and follow the same procedures as for any other crime. The only financial records accessible are records of legal debt collection actions ("Betreibungen"). Before offering someone credit, you can find out if other people had to sue them to collect. Yet, even with so little information - without credit reporting agencies - everything works just fine. FWIW, due to international pressure (things like FATCA), Swiss law was changed so that banks do report on international customers.

rz2k 3y ago
Do you know how Swiss financial privacy and credit reporting laws compare with countries in the EU? > Around 36 percent of the Swiss own their homes or apartments, the lowest rate in the West and well below the 70 percent average in the European Union, and the 67 percent in the United States. [1] I’m sure there are many factors, but I would be less willing to finance someone’s large purchase without more information about their creditworthiness. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/06/realestate/zurich-switzerland-renting-homes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/06/realestate/zurich-switzer...
- all2 3y ago
  What do they mean by "own"? Is it deed in hand or debt to a banker?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mamaluigie 3y ago
This is very true. The company that I am at, not going to mention name but just going to say its FAANG, buys data from this company and uses it to allow for better tracking and graph building when we receive experian cookies. The USA does not care about its peoples privacy even though it constantly says that it does lol. If they cracked down on the privacy laws I feel that bank accounts will get affected since in the top 500 of stocks big tech sits on top.
namdnay 3y ago
“Everything works just fine” It definitely worked great for a lot of dictators, tax cheats and the sort… I think Switzerland is a great example of why complete privacy isn’t fair on ordinary taxpayers - it allows the ultra-rich to hide what they owe
- cmutel 3y ago
  I'm an American living in Switzerland for over 10 years, and this was definitely my impression as well. But that isn't really the case anymore here - you can no longer have anonymous (i.e. only numbered) accounts, and Switzerland is no longer a preferred locations for dirty money. The ironic thing is that one of those new hot spots, in addition to the usual suspects like Cyprus, the Caribbean, etc., is the USA. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/wyoming-trusts-finance-pandora-papers/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/wyo... for some juicy details.
  - stavros 3y ago
    As far as I know, Cyprus complies with FATCA/CRS as much as anyone else (unless the "anyone else" is, as you say, the US).
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    FACTA would only apply to Americans and permanent residents right? It isn’t hard to imagine that America is a good place for non-Americans to stash money, but that trick really wouldn’t work for Americans themselves. For example, the Canadian and American housing markets have been a good place to launder dirty or gray Chinese money into real estate.
  - zimbatm 3y ago
    The reason the Swiss value their privacy from the Government is because of a surveillance scandal that happened in 1989. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal Of course, privacy enabled the bankers to do shady things, but this wasn't the initial motivation. Swiss people value their privacy overall.
emodendroket 3y ago
I would say this problem would also be solved if we stopped pretending that a Social Security number was a serious substitute for secure national ID.
- michpoch 3y ago
  What's the issue with SSN being an ID?
  - nulbyte 3y ago
    It was creating for the purpose of tracking an individual's account by the Social Security Administration. It later became a de facto identifier and, even worse, is many times abused as a form of authentication, but it was never designed to be either. As a result, we have processes that ask for or require a social security number that aren't even related to the purpose for which it was created: Health care, loans, debt collection. Notably, some citizens of certain religious sects, like the Amish, do not have social security numbers.
    - michpoch 3y ago
      It still sounds like a good way to uniquely identify a person? How else would an institution confirm that it's talking about the same person?
      - WitCanStain 3y ago
        It is used that way in Finland and a fair few other countries and works perfectly well.
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        The same way they do for people who aren’t from the US? Some combination of name, address, birthdate, etc. But the problem isn’t using the SSN as a semi-unique ID. It’s using it for that and also assuming it’s secret. SSN shouldn’t be any more secret than name or address (and shouldn’t be used to unlock or access accounts).

rz2k 3y ago

Do you know how Swiss financial privacy and credit reporting laws compare with countries in the EU? > Around 36 percent of the Swiss own their homes or apartments, the lowest rate in the West and well below the 70 percent average in the European Union, and the 67 percent in the United States. [1] I’m sure there are many factors, but I would be less willing to finance someone’s large purchase without more information about their creditworthiness. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/06/realestate/zurich-switzerland-renting-homes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/06/realestate/zurich-switzer...

all2 3y ago
What do they mean by "own"? Is it deed in hand or debt to a banker?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mamaluigie 3y ago

This is very true. The company that I am at, not going to mention name but just going to say its FAANG, buys data from this company and uses it to allow for better tracking and graph building when we receive experian cookies. The USA does not care about its peoples privacy even though it constantly says that it does lol. If they cracked down on the privacy laws I feel that bank accounts will get affected since in the top 500 of stocks big tech sits on top.

namdnay 3y ago

“Everything works just fine” It definitely worked great for a lot of dictators, tax cheats and the sort… I think Switzerland is a great example of why complete privacy isn’t fair on ordinary taxpayers - it allows the ultra-rich to hide what they owe

cmutel 3y ago
I'm an American living in Switzerland for over 10 years, and this was definitely my impression as well. But that isn't really the case anymore here - you can no longer have anonymous (i.e. only numbered) accounts, and Switzerland is no longer a preferred locations for dirty money. The ironic thing is that one of those new hot spots, in addition to the usual suspects like Cyprus, the Caribbean, etc., is the USA. See https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/wyoming-trusts-finance-pandora-papers/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/interactive/2021/wyo... for some juicy details.
- stavros 3y ago
  As far as I know, Cyprus complies with FATCA/CRS as much as anyone else (unless the "anyone else" is, as you say, the US).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  FACTA would only apply to Americans and permanent residents right? It isn’t hard to imagine that America is a good place for non-Americans to stash money, but that trick really wouldn’t work for Americans themselves. For example, the Canadian and American housing markets have been a good place to launder dirty or gray Chinese money into real estate.
- zimbatm 3y ago
  The reason the Swiss value their privacy from the Government is because of a surveillance scandal that happened in 1989. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_files_scandal Of course, privacy enabled the bankers to do shady things, but this wasn't the initial motivation. Swiss people value their privacy overall.

emodendroket 3y ago

I would say this problem would also be solved if we stopped pretending that a Social Security number was a serious substitute for secure national ID.

michpoch 3y ago
What's the issue with SSN being an ID?
- nulbyte 3y ago
  It was creating for the purpose of tracking an individual's account by the Social Security Administration. It later became a de facto identifier and, even worse, is many times abused as a form of authentication, but it was never designed to be either. As a result, we have processes that ask for or require a social security number that aren't even related to the purpose for which it was created: Health care, loans, debt collection. Notably, some citizens of certain religious sects, like the Amish, do not have social security numbers.
  - michpoch 3y ago
    It still sounds like a good way to uniquely identify a person? How else would an institution confirm that it's talking about the same person?
    - WitCanStain 3y ago
      It is used that way in Finland and a fair few other countries and works perfectly well.
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      The same way they do for people who aren’t from the US? Some combination of name, address, birthdate, etc. But the problem isn’t using the SSN as a semi-unique ID. It’s using it for that and also assuming it’s secret. SSN shouldn’t be any more secret than name or address (and shouldn’t be used to unlock or access accounts).