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I'm concerned that many might miss the nuance and subtlety of the main issue: - Nicotine IS really addictive when distributed through common uses (smoking, vap

I'm concerned that many might miss the nuance and subtlety of the main issue: - Nicotine IS really addictive when distributed through common uses (smoking, vaping). Yes, if the absorption is progressive and in small dosages, the addiction is less severe, but this is not useful for smokers who want to quit and presents a dangerous introduction for others

petesergeant 3y ago
I used gum to come off vapes, and I still use gum. Over time, I’ve started to notice my tolerance is … decreasing? I’m now cutting a 2mg gum (lowest dose) in 4 with a pill cutter, and that’s about the right amount
camgunz 3y ago
100% correct. This article circulates every so often but it's basically just super dangerous. Recommend just looking at NIH [0] here. [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&t=ffab&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.g...
- insanitybit 3y ago
  Could you provide something way more specific than a DDG search?
  - camgunz 3y ago
    No the thing I'm doing is burying this armchair gwern hogwash with tons of actual research that spans decades.
insanitybit 3y ago
I have zero interest in cigarettes though. So like, let's say I started chewing a gum and then I became addicted to the gum. I'm assuming the downside here would be primarily withdrawal effects of not chewing the gum? It's not like it's going to be a gateway to cigarettes for me. You'll experience caffeine withdrawal too, so I'm not sure that's really a problem. From the article, > There is little evidence from the NRT literature that ‘never-smokers’ like myself are all that likely to become highly addicted, That is to say, it does not seem to present a dangerous introduction for others, assuming you mean an introduction to cigarettes.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Indeed, there are loads of occasional-cigar smokers out there who have zero interest in smoking cigarettes, and in between the times they feel they can afford a quality cigar, simply do not smoke at all.
  - nickstinemates 3y ago
    I just had my first cigar the other night at 38. Was a good experience, I look forward to next time, but it was the environment/atmosphere more than the high. I have zero interest in smoking weed or cigarettes. It's a completely different thing in my mind.
    - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
      There is no "high" with cigars. It's just a matter of enjoying a particular aroma profile, just like eating barbecue, smelling a perfume, or burning some incense. Did you really go into smoking a cigar expecting some kind of drug experience?
      - nickstinemates 3y ago
        Nope, I went in expecting exactly what I got. It was awesome.
- jtriangle 3y ago
  Anecdotally, I've accidentally quit vaping several times, because I don't vape when I've caught a cold and that's coincided with me needing to buy supplies. I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all. So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in general is far more addicting and therefore far more bioactive than just consuming nicotine is.
  - nannal 3y ago
thecodedmessage 3y ago
For the word “dangerous” to be appropriate, it needs to be established (1) that nicotine is bad for you or (2) that this introduction ever leads to smoking. Or are you just taking all the harms of smoking and applying them to nicotine because of cultural reasons?
huytersd 3y ago
Honestly addiction itself is not enough of a downside.
jrsj 3y ago
Nicotine itself really isn't particularly dangerous. If you haven't already been a smoker, you have no mental connection between nicotine cravings and cigarettes, so you don't really have any reason to desire them. If you were used to something like Zyn & tried a cigarette, you probably wouldn't even like it that much in my opinion. It may kick in significantly quicker, but there's also substantially less nicotine in a cigarette vs a nicotine pouch and it would probably leave you dissatisfied and annoyed at the bad taste in your mouth.
vGPU 3y ago
Not particularly. Pure nicotine in and of itself is significantly less addictive than the form presented in a cigarette. Modern big tobacco has managed to create an incredibly nasty and addictive chemical slurry in a stick, with acetaldehyde, ammonia, MAOIs, and a bunch of other chemicals which significantly increase the addictiveness of nicotine. Gwern has noted the same in his post: > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
- vGPU 3y ago
  Gwern has noted the same in his post: > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
  - ShamelessC 3y ago
    Gwern has noted the same in his post: > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
    - vGPU 3y ago
      It wasn’t showing up when I had edited initially, my bad.

petesergeant 3y ago

I used gum to come off vapes, and I still use gum. Over time, I’ve started to notice my tolerance is … decreasing? I’m now cutting a 2mg gum (lowest dose) in 4 with a pill cutter, and that’s about the right amount

camgunz 3y ago

100% correct. This article circulates every so often but it's basically just super dangerous. Recommend just looking at NIH [0] here. [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov&t=ffab&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.g...

insanitybit 3y ago
Could you provide something way more specific than a DDG search?
- camgunz 3y ago
  No the thing I'm doing is burying this armchair gwern hogwash with tons of actual research that spans decades.

insanitybit 3y ago

I have zero interest in cigarettes though. So like, let's say I started chewing a gum and then I became addicted to the gum. I'm assuming the downside here would be primarily withdrawal effects of not chewing the gum? It's not like it's going to be a gateway to cigarettes for me. You'll experience caffeine withdrawal too, so I'm not sure that's really a problem. From the article, > There is little evidence from the NRT literature that ‘never-smokers’ like myself are all that likely to become highly addicted, That is to say, it does not seem to present a dangerous introduction for others, assuming you mean an introduction to cigarettes.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Indeed, there are loads of occasional-cigar smokers out there who have zero interest in smoking cigarettes, and in between the times they feel they can afford a quality cigar, simply do not smoke at all.
- nickstinemates 3y ago
  I just had my first cigar the other night at 38. Was a good experience, I look forward to next time, but it was the environment/atmosphere more than the high. I have zero interest in smoking weed or cigarettes. It's a completely different thing in my mind.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    There is no "high" with cigars. It's just a matter of enjoying a particular aroma profile, just like eating barbecue, smelling a perfume, or burning some incense. Did you really go into smoking a cigar expecting some kind of drug experience?
    - nickstinemates 3y ago
      Nope, I went in expecting exactly what I got. It was awesome.
jtriangle 3y ago
Anecdotally, I've accidentally quit vaping several times, because I don't vape when I've caught a cold and that's coincided with me needing to buy supplies. I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all. So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in general is far more addicting and therefore far more bioactive than just consuming nicotine is.
- nannal 3y ago

thecodedmessage 3y ago

For the word “dangerous” to be appropriate, it needs to be established (1) that nicotine is bad for you or (2) that this introduction ever leads to smoking. Or are you just taking all the harms of smoking and applying them to nicotine because of cultural reasons?

huytersd 3y ago

Honestly addiction itself is not enough of a downside.

jrsj 3y ago

Nicotine itself really isn't particularly dangerous. If you haven't already been a smoker, you have no mental connection between nicotine cravings and cigarettes, so you don't really have any reason to desire them. If you were used to something like Zyn & tried a cigarette, you probably wouldn't even like it that much in my opinion. It may kick in significantly quicker, but there's also substantially less nicotine in a cigarette vs a nicotine pouch and it would probably leave you dissatisfied and annoyed at the bad taste in your mouth.

vGPU 3y ago

Not particularly. Pure nicotine in and of itself is significantly less addictive than the form presented in a cigarette. Modern big tobacco has managed to create an incredibly nasty and addictive chemical slurry in a stick, with acetaldehyde, ammonia, MAOIs, and a bunch of other chemicals which significantly increase the addictiveness of nicotine. Gwern has noted the same in his post: > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco

vGPU 3y ago
Gwern has noted the same in his post: > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
- ShamelessC 3y ago
  Gwern has noted the same in his post: > Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
  - vGPU 3y ago
    It wasn’t showing up when I had edited initially, my bad.