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This isn't just google, it's every company with contractors and employees. Microsoft learned the hard way to not treat contractors like employees. https://www.

This isn't just google, it's every company with contractors and employees. Microsoft learned the hard way to not treat contractors like employees. https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-dont-treat-c/dont-treat-contractors-like-employees-idUSTRE53063S20090401 https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-... Nobody else wants to learn that same lesson.

coldtrait 3y ago
Yea I've experienced this in capital one. Some smaller non tech companies are chill, where there is really no difference in how they treat contractors and employees.
- peddling-brink 3y ago
  I worked at a big insurance company for a while. Contractors could have their birthday celebrated, but cake was not permitted.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    That's brutal.
  - spacedcowboy 3y ago
    The cake was a lie ?
  - unixhero 3y ago
    Cake is terrible for you any ways.
allenu 3y ago
Yup, when I read the blog post, my immediate thought was, "Hey, this sounds just like Microsoft when I was there." There it was blue badge vs. non-blue badge. All the other stuff, too –– wanting to innovate but finding everything so slow, lots of process, feeling very pampered, etc.
JSavageOne 3y ago
Ok but then contractors have the freedom to work whatever hours they want, not show up to the office, and subcontract out their work - right? If so that might be more appealing than being an employee
- no_wizard 3y ago
  Not in practice, because they use a hiring entity to dictate the terms. You're expected to show up on a schedule, do the work etc. much like a FTE, but you're not an FTE. I think some folks have this illusion of software contractors that this is somehow common, it really isn't. The norm is you-are-almost-but-not-quite an employee type work environment, and thats at the better places. I've worked at a place where contractors were treated like they weren't human, basically. Worst equipment, forced to work in an old warehouse that barely passed code to be considered retrofitted for an office, people routine got sick out there because they were exposed to the elements. Not to mention, during fire season (this was California) they were in a building that didn't have a good enough air filtration system, so they were forced to sit in smoke all day, more or less I quit that place pretty quickly, but it was nothing short of terrible
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    As a contractor, you are an FTE... just for a different (almost always much worse) company. And that arrangement exists solely so that the company whose work you're actually doing can fire you more easily or avoid legal liability.
    - GreedClarifies 3y ago
      I wish we could somehow get this comment more visibility. Especially the 1st sentence. People that complain about the plights of contractors need to understand the above.
    - JSavageOne 3y ago
      I'm surprised this even legally flies. Seems like the legal equivalent of creating a shell company.
ponector 3y ago
Every US company. European companies somehow have contractors without caste system. Obviously there are different policies for internals and contractors, but fruits and pizza are for everyone in the office.
- tgma 3y ago
  European tech worker is compensated so measly everyone is equally poor I suppose. Just like every commun... ehem... socialist system, it achieves equality at epsilon.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Which is because it is extremely rude, like meanest of meanest, to not share food with each other. Like, of all mean but not illegal things you can do to contractors, not sharing food is probably what people consider the worst. Small every day things are way more provocative than abstract things like retirement funds or whatever. Been there. Done that. The FTEs got strawberries. I didn't. I don't think I have been that pissed off in my life. If someone had wrecked my car on purpose I'd be less pissed.
  - jterrys 3y ago
    I experienced something similar at a previous job. It was funny. I was working in a satellite office for an org based in a different country, and once in a while (minimum once a year) we'd be sent to HQ for a few weeks. Wrapping up projects, team coordination, whatever. So of course we'd eat together. The team got a new manager when I joined, and he was told that our treatment was equal despite satellite office status because we were on the same teams coordinating on the same projects, but in different timezones. Anyway, even though I was technically a FTE at the company, I didn't have the necessary prerequisites to pay for cafeteria food at FTE discounts. I was forced to pay contractor prices. A full extra $5 per meal. My manager was initially confused, then upset. Then we tried to talk with the cafeteria contracting company. They told him it was out of their control. So, we began investigating...eventually uncovering some internal "separate but equal" undocumented employment scheme were compensation, benefits, whatnot, unraveled into a weird caste discrimination system. The people that were pulling their weight were paid pennies while senior team members who were awaiting retirement just raked in the big bucks with benefits on contracts no longer offered, or offered through some backdoor deals before the company really expanded. In the end, the lunch situation was solved by just stating that I was a FTE because I had the same color badge. It turns out the cashiers didn't even scan badges or anything, just asked you if you were internal and to show your badge. But out of all the bullshit we uncovered, the food situation really broke his spirit the most.
szundi 3y ago
In my company I almost fired someone from HR for constantly forgetting how these contractor people are part of the team, invited to every event etc
- MattPalmer1086 3y ago
  In the UK at least, if you are a contractor you are legally not an employee. If you took any employee benefits, the tax man could retroactively classify you as an employee and demand a huge tax bill from you. So many contractors would refuse any such benefits even if they were offered. Some didn't care of course and took them anyway, but they were potentially setting themselves up for a huge legal and tax problem.
- cdchn 3y ago
  Why "almost?" Who won out, HR or treating contractors humanely? Or did they come correct without firing required?
blagie 3y ago
It's not the same. The Microsoft problem was *independent* contractors. I.E. treating people as self-employed. Normal contractors are employees of a temp firm. None of these issues apply there. Footnote: I started my career as an IC, before I had family or kids. It was great. 32 hour work weeks and time (and the legal right) to do startups on the side. Ton of flexibility relative to a real job.
- taude 3y ago
  The microsoft lawsuit applied to the contractor staffing agencies, too. I'd google it for you, bute they had so many orange v-badges back in the day, that it has to be pretty easy to google.
  - blagie 3y ago
    Web search says that contrary to stereotypes, the problem was that they did NOT have contractor staffing agencies, and that as a result, they were not withholding taxes. This was resolved by bringing in a staffing agency. A second problem was that they DID have ambiguous language in their employee handbooks, which meant that once temps were ruled employees, they became benefit-eligible, including in retroactively. https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-dont-treat-c-idUSTRE53063S20090401 https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-...
dudus 3y ago
I had the same experience as a contractor for IBM. Real IBMers got all kinds of stuff. We had to pay full price for the GR meal.
omoikane 3y ago
I remember Google had something like contractors need to pay $1 to use the gym, meaning it wasn't free so it doesn't count as a benefit, but the amount was clearly not something that was material.
RajT88 3y ago
Microsoft contractors while not getting the benefits package of an FTE, may actually make more money than the same role as an FTE. I have known some folks getting insurance through their partner's work who passed on going FTE because it would be a pay cut. Yes, they are not allowed access to a lot of stuff (source, telemetry, etc.).
OJFord 3y ago
Ok, but at Arm my red (intern) badge was no more 'demeaning' than my blue (permanent) badge. Not least because they only left my pocket when I needed to open a door... (Colours from memory, I think that's right, they were certainly different anyway.) Point is you can certainly learn not to treat contractors like employees, have badged access, etc., without having such hostility attached to it. Edit: no! Red actually was a 'badge of shame', that was 'I forgot my badge today and had to get a spare from reception'. Anyway, it's beside the point exactly what was what. Different badges and access/treatment don't have to bleed into social treatment, they don't even have to be that visible.
- bhelkey 3y ago
  This conversation isn't about the difference between intern and full time employee but rather the difference between contractor and full time employee.
  - OJFord 3y ago
    It's about 'demeaning' different badges, and an intern is inherently temporary, which is the T in 'TVC'.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Interns always got the FTE type experience (able to eat at celebrations, got Schwag, etc!). They weren’t temp in the same sense as T temps - which are temporary workers hired from temp agencies.
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        Yep. Some companies even give interns legitimate (taxable!) benefits, too, which almost no company will give their TVCs.
- TreeInBuxton 3y ago
  Depends on when you interned! Before 2018 you would get a green badge as an intern, 2018 and onwards you got the same blue as everyone else, when they moved all the offices to GDAS. Contractors (cleaners, catering staff, etc) got yellow ones IIRC (I interned at ARM in Cambridge 2017 and 2018)
TheRealPomax 3y ago
There's "contractors" and then there's "branded as outsider". The red hot iron kind of branding, not the marketing kind. Red badging is what you do when you view people as numbers in a spreadsheet instead of people.
bredren 3y ago
Intel used to do this. I was a high school and college intern in the late 90s and it was this blue badge / green badge thing. The funny thing is, there was another level which was how worn out your blue badge was. The longer you had been there, the closer the badge was to white.
- ngneer 3y ago
  If by "this" you meant a caste-like system, then my experience at Intel in 2010s was very different. Different people (contingent workers with green badges and others with blue badges) worked well enough together, and got well enough along (with one or two instances being the exception, not the rule). That's funny about the white badge. I am sure they could have gotten new ones, engineers have the funniest status symbols...
Roark66 3y ago
Wow, somehow I missed all that despite being a contractor for about half of 20+ years of working in this industry... Perhaps it is a USA thing? Although I worked for a couple of US companies remotely and I never noticed it. I'm currently doing contracting for a Polish branch of a US company you would recognise a name of and the only difference between being a contractor (other than tax stuff of course) is that I can't fill security exception requests, and I get asked if I want to work during certain national holidays or not (employees get a day off per default, I have a choice).
rkalla 3y ago
THIS case is exactly why all these companies do this.

coldtrait 3y ago

Yea I've experienced this in capital one. Some smaller non tech companies are chill, where there is really no difference in how they treat contractors and employees.

peddling-brink 3y ago
I worked at a big insurance company for a while. Contractors could have their birthday celebrated, but cake was not permitted.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  That's brutal.
- spacedcowboy 3y ago
  The cake was a lie ?
- unixhero 3y ago
  Cake is terrible for you any ways.

allenu 3y ago

Yup, when I read the blog post, my immediate thought was, "Hey, this sounds just like Microsoft when I was there." There it was blue badge vs. non-blue badge. All the other stuff, too –– wanting to innovate but finding everything so slow, lots of process, feeling very pampered, etc.

JSavageOne 3y ago

Ok but then contractors have the freedom to work whatever hours they want, not show up to the office, and subcontract out their work - right? If so that might be more appealing than being an employee

no_wizard 3y ago
Not in practice, because they use a hiring entity to dictate the terms. You're expected to show up on a schedule, do the work etc. much like a FTE, but you're not an FTE. I think some folks have this illusion of software contractors that this is somehow common, it really isn't. The norm is you-are-almost-but-not-quite an employee type work environment, and thats at the better places. I've worked at a place where contractors were treated like they weren't human, basically. Worst equipment, forced to work in an old warehouse that barely passed code to be considered retrofitted for an office, people routine got sick out there because they were exposed to the elements. Not to mention, during fire season (this was California) they were in a building that didn't have a good enough air filtration system, so they were forced to sit in smoke all day, more or less I quit that place pretty quickly, but it was nothing short of terrible
- ethbr1 3y ago
  As a contractor, you are an FTE... just for a different (almost always much worse) company. And that arrangement exists solely so that the company whose work you're actually doing can fire you more easily or avoid legal liability.
  - GreedClarifies 3y ago
    I wish we could somehow get this comment more visibility. Especially the 1st sentence. People that complain about the plights of contractors need to understand the above.
  - JSavageOne 3y ago
    I'm surprised this even legally flies. Seems like the legal equivalent of creating a shell company.

ponector 3y ago

Every US company. European companies somehow have contractors without caste system. Obviously there are different policies for internals and contractors, but fruits and pizza are for everyone in the office.

tgma 3y ago
European tech worker is compensated so measly everyone is equally poor I suppose. Just like every commun... ehem... socialist system, it achieves equality at epsilon.
rightbyte 3y ago
Which is because it is extremely rude, like meanest of meanest, to not share food with each other. Like, of all mean but not illegal things you can do to contractors, not sharing food is probably what people consider the worst. Small every day things are way more provocative than abstract things like retirement funds or whatever. Been there. Done that. The FTEs got strawberries. I didn't. I don't think I have been that pissed off in my life. If someone had wrecked my car on purpose I'd be less pissed.
- jterrys 3y ago
  I experienced something similar at a previous job. It was funny. I was working in a satellite office for an org based in a different country, and once in a while (minimum once a year) we'd be sent to HQ for a few weeks. Wrapping up projects, team coordination, whatever. So of course we'd eat together. The team got a new manager when I joined, and he was told that our treatment was equal despite satellite office status because we were on the same teams coordinating on the same projects, but in different timezones. Anyway, even though I was technically a FTE at the company, I didn't have the necessary prerequisites to pay for cafeteria food at FTE discounts. I was forced to pay contractor prices. A full extra $5 per meal. My manager was initially confused, then upset. Then we tried to talk with the cafeteria contracting company. They told him it was out of their control. So, we began investigating...eventually uncovering some internal "separate but equal" undocumented employment scheme were compensation, benefits, whatnot, unraveled into a weird caste discrimination system. The people that were pulling their weight were paid pennies while senior team members who were awaiting retirement just raked in the big bucks with benefits on contracts no longer offered, or offered through some backdoor deals before the company really expanded. In the end, the lunch situation was solved by just stating that I was a FTE because I had the same color badge. It turns out the cashiers didn't even scan badges or anything, just asked you if you were internal and to show your badge. But out of all the bullshit we uncovered, the food situation really broke his spirit the most.

szundi 3y ago

In my company I almost fired someone from HR for constantly forgetting how these contractor people are part of the team, invited to every event etc

MattPalmer1086 3y ago
In the UK at least, if you are a contractor you are legally not an employee. If you took any employee benefits, the tax man could retroactively classify you as an employee and demand a huge tax bill from you. So many contractors would refuse any such benefits even if they were offered. Some didn't care of course and took them anyway, but they were potentially setting themselves up for a huge legal and tax problem.
cdchn 3y ago
Why "almost?" Who won out, HR or treating contractors humanely? Or did they come correct without firing required?

blagie 3y ago

It's not the same. The Microsoft problem was *independent* contractors. I.E. treating people as self-employed. Normal contractors are employees of a temp firm. None of these issues apply there. Footnote: I started my career as an IC, before I had family or kids. It was great. 32 hour work weeks and time (and the legal right) to do startups on the side. Ton of flexibility relative to a real job.

taude 3y ago
The microsoft lawsuit applied to the contractor staffing agencies, too. I'd google it for you, bute they had so many orange v-badges back in the day, that it has to be pretty easy to google.
- blagie 3y ago
  Web search says that contrary to stereotypes, the problem was that they did NOT have contractor staffing agencies, and that as a result, they were not withholding taxes. This was resolved by bringing in a staffing agency. A second problem was that they DID have ambiguous language in their employee handbooks, which meant that once temps were ruled employees, they became benefit-eligible, including in retroactively. https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-dont-treat-c-idUSTRE53063S20090401 https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-...

dudus 3y ago

I had the same experience as a contractor for IBM. Real IBMers got all kinds of stuff. We had to pay full price for the GR meal.

omoikane 3y ago

I remember Google had something like contractors need to pay $1 to use the gym, meaning it wasn't free so it doesn't count as a benefit, but the amount was clearly not something that was material.

RajT88 3y ago

Microsoft contractors while not getting the benefits package of an FTE, may actually make more money than the same role as an FTE. I have known some folks getting insurance through their partner's work who passed on going FTE because it would be a pay cut. Yes, they are not allowed access to a lot of stuff (source, telemetry, etc.).

OJFord 3y ago

Ok, but at Arm my red (intern) badge was no more 'demeaning' than my blue (permanent) badge. Not least because they only left my pocket when I needed to open a door... (Colours from memory, I think that's right, they were certainly different anyway.) Point is you can certainly learn not to treat contractors like employees, have badged access, etc., without having such hostility attached to it. Edit: no! Red actually was a 'badge of shame', that was 'I forgot my badge today and had to get a spare from reception'. Anyway, it's beside the point exactly what was what. Different badges and access/treatment don't have to bleed into social treatment, they don't even have to be that visible.

bhelkey 3y ago
This conversation isn't about the difference between intern and full time employee but rather the difference between contractor and full time employee.
- OJFord 3y ago
  It's about 'demeaning' different badges, and an intern is inherently temporary, which is the T in 'TVC'.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Interns always got the FTE type experience (able to eat at celebrations, got Schwag, etc!). They weren’t temp in the same sense as T temps - which are temporary workers hired from temp agencies.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      Yep. Some companies even give interns legitimate (taxable!) benefits, too, which almost no company will give their TVCs.
TreeInBuxton 3y ago
Depends on when you interned! Before 2018 you would get a green badge as an intern, 2018 and onwards you got the same blue as everyone else, when they moved all the offices to GDAS. Contractors (cleaners, catering staff, etc) got yellow ones IIRC (I interned at ARM in Cambridge 2017 and 2018)

TheRealPomax 3y ago

There's "contractors" and then there's "branded as outsider". The red hot iron kind of branding, not the marketing kind. Red badging is what you do when you view people as numbers in a spreadsheet instead of people.

bredren 3y ago

Intel used to do this. I was a high school and college intern in the late 90s and it was this blue badge / green badge thing. The funny thing is, there was another level which was how worn out your blue badge was. The longer you had been there, the closer the badge was to white.

ngneer 3y ago
If by "this" you meant a caste-like system, then my experience at Intel in 2010s was very different. Different people (contingent workers with green badges and others with blue badges) worked well enough together, and got well enough along (with one or two instances being the exception, not the rule). That's funny about the white badge. I am sure they could have gotten new ones, engineers have the funniest status symbols...

Roark66 3y ago

Wow, somehow I missed all that despite being a contractor for about half of 20+ years of working in this industry... Perhaps it is a USA thing? Although I worked for a couple of US companies remotely and I never noticed it. I'm currently doing contracting for a Polish branch of a US company you would recognise a name of and the only difference between being a contractor (other than tax stuff of course) is that I can't fill security exception requests, and I get asked if I want to work during certain national holidays or not (employees get a day off per default, I have a choice).

rkalla 3y ago

THIS case is exactly why all these companies do this.