5 ms·

Foxconn Bears The Brunt Of Ivory Tower Assault On Capitalism

23 points by iProject 15y ago

hjhjhj 15y ago
"I regularly visit all of our Chinese manufacturing facilities to keep an eye on what is going on and I am always talking to the factory owners, managers and assembly line staff." This is so hilarious to anyone who is in the working class.
- hjhjhj 15y ago
  I should elaborate. Why do western folk always think everyone elsewhere is some stupid developing world idiot who would never be able to game the system the same way we game the system over here?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - pyre 15y ago
    1) There is really no way to prevent the gaming of the system, so it's easier to just suspend disbelief and assume that, "I visited the factory, therefore it's impossible that something could be going on behind my back. 2) If you go over there and the people are nice to you and you get a good vibe from them, it's an assault on your 'people skills' that they could be lying to you without being detected.
    - lzh-ng 15y ago
      The author obviously believes his visits rule out the possibility of exploitation. However, there's something to said for actually being on the ground, as opposed to forming opinions based on western paternalism and media histrionics.
ahelwer 15y ago
I think The New Yorker said it best. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/03/iphone-factories-chinese-dreams.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/03/iphon... Choice paragraph: "The simple narrative equating American demand and Chinese suffering is appealing, especially at a time when many Americans feel guilty about their impact on the world. It’s also inaccurate and disrespectful. We must be peculiarly self-obsessed to imagine we have the power to drive tens of millions of people on the other side of the world to migrate and suffer in terrible ways. China produces goods for markets all over the world, including for its own consumers, thanks to low costs, a large and educated workforce, and a flexible manufacturing system that responds rapidly to market demands. To imagine that we have willed this universe into being is simply solipsistic. It is also demeaning to the workers. We are not at the center of this story—we are minor players in theirs. By focussing on ourselves and our gadgets, we have reduced the human beings at the other end to invisibility, as tiny and interchangeable as the parts of a mobile phone."
- joe_the_user 15y ago
  Even choicer: "Chinese staff are generally very grateful for the work they are doing..."
- Joeboy 15y ago
  > To imagine that we have willed this universe into being is simply solipsistic That's a straw man though. Even the most woolly-minded liberal hippy consumer doesn't imagine that their purchasing choices are the sole driver of events in China. The word "solipsistic" doesn't make the possibility of effective consumer activism disappear.
  - ahelwer 15y ago
    This isn't something that I can provide statistics for, but it seems to me that most news stories take the heavily American-centric angle on the topic. The New Yorker article provides valuable perspective. Of course I support slow and steady pressure on the American corporations involved, but paternalism should be avoided.
scarmig 15y ago
"The Chinese care more about learning and being productive than they do about how many sick days and annual leave days they will get each year." Thank god there's some white dude here to share the truth about what those Orientals want. Weekends and health insurance? pffft. The only thing Chinese people value is hard work! (And I'm someone who's not terribly shocked or upset at Foxconn. Terrible article, nonetheless.)
- lunaru 15y ago
  Not to be overly sensitive, but I believe the term "Orientals" is derogatory. Even if used in jest, you wouldn't use something like the "N" word casually (http://www.lifeintheusa.com/people/asians.htm http://www.lifeintheusa.com/people/asians.htm). Just pointing this out for the sake of clean conversation.
  - drats 15y ago
    It's obvious that scarmig is parodying the comments Ruslan makes in the article and thus using the term "Orientals" to criticise and not in his/her own voice. Well perhaps it's not obvious to hyper-ventilating PC police so intent on keeping things "clean" you write a post attacking someone who likely agrees with you.. Edit: You were on the right track when you said "not to be overly sensitive" because even with your misinterpretation of scarmig you were still aware that you were being an annoying whiner.
- eli_gottlieb 15y ago
  Besides, as a matter of sheer fact, the Chinese get more annual leave days than, say, Americans.
eli_gottlieb 15y ago
Her response reminded me of how I felt about work when I started Kogan. Working long hours is not a sign that workers are being exploited. I know plenty of entrepreneurs who are very excited that they spend almost every waking moment creating something that will make the world a better place. The Chinese strike me as very enterprising people, who want to improve their lives and are prepared to work hard to achieve their goals. So basically: * This writer, for all his railing against an "ivory-tower assault on capitalism", does not understand the definition of exploitation as given by Marx: the difference between value produced by the worker and value captured by the worker. Entrepreneurs own the businesses at which they work, and can thus capture 100% of their work-value. Employees don't, and usually can't (not even through stock options). * This writer does not differentiate between a rapidly developing economy (China) and a stagnant, rent-seeking late-capitalist economy (United States). Assembly lines can be moved to new countries, or even replaced with robots. Winning a race to the bottom on labor arbitrage is no honor. The Chinese don't consider it an honor either: strikes and demonstrations for higher wages and shorter hours are actually quite common in modern China. People who were happy with their employer, their job, their wage, their learning opportunity and their livelihood would lose their job, despite the fact that they never once complained. This is a classic piece of capitalist propaganda brought to bear on every single proposal for improving the conditions of workers. Somehow, improving working conditions and wages for everyone will result in workaholics going emotionally unfulfilled by their sudden birth of free time. Bullshit. Workaholics will start a side-business in their free time. We also need to recognize that all countries go through a phase of industrial manufacturing during their development. This happened in England through the industrial revolution, and in the USA in the 19th century. We should not be trying to deprive the Chinese of increasing their prosperity through this significant and mandatory stage of development. We should every bit be encouraging the Chinese to proceed naturally through this phase of development by creating and enhancing labor protections and trade unions. I believe there is a lot of value in an open and transparent discussion over important issues. No you don't. You wrote this entire article to dismiss the current-day labor movement, in its Western branch and implicitly in its Chinese branch, out of hand.
- stupidsheep 15y ago
  booom!
rhdoenges 15y ago
This reads like a justification of poor labor conditions, which it is. Eerie echoes of the gilded age.

23 points by iProject 15y ago

"I regularly visit all of our Chinese manufacturing facilities to keep an eye on what is going on and I am always talking to the factory owners, managers and assembly line staff." This is so hilarious to anyone who is in the working class.

hjhjhj 15y ago
I should elaborate. Why do western folk always think everyone elsewhere is some stupid developing world idiot who would never be able to game the system the same way we game the system over here?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- pyre 15y ago
  1) There is really no way to prevent the gaming of the system, so it's easier to just suspend disbelief and assume that, "I visited the factory, therefore it's impossible that something could be going on behind my back. 2) If you go over there and the people are nice to you and you get a good vibe from them, it's an assault on your 'people skills' that they could be lying to you without being detected.
  - lzh-ng 15y ago
    The author obviously believes his visits rule out the possibility of exploitation. However, there's something to said for actually being on the ground, as opposed to forming opinions based on western paternalism and media histrionics.

ahelwer 15y ago

I think The New Yorker said it best. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/03/iphone-factories-chinese-dreams.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/03/iphon... Choice paragraph: "The simple narrative equating American demand and Chinese suffering is appealing, especially at a time when many Americans feel guilty about their impact on the world. It’s also inaccurate and disrespectful. We must be peculiarly self-obsessed to imagine we have the power to drive tens of millions of people on the other side of the world to migrate and suffer in terrible ways. China produces goods for markets all over the world, including for its own consumers, thanks to low costs, a large and educated workforce, and a flexible manufacturing system that responds rapidly to market demands. To imagine that we have willed this universe into being is simply solipsistic. It is also demeaning to the workers. We are not at the center of this story—we are minor players in theirs. By focussing on ourselves and our gadgets, we have reduced the human beings at the other end to invisibility, as tiny and interchangeable as the parts of a mobile phone."

joe_the_user 15y ago
Even choicer: "Chinese staff are generally very grateful for the work they are doing..."
Joeboy 15y ago
> To imagine that we have willed this universe into being is simply solipsistic That's a straw man though. Even the most woolly-minded liberal hippy consumer doesn't imagine that their purchasing choices are the sole driver of events in China. The word "solipsistic" doesn't make the possibility of effective consumer activism disappear.
- ahelwer 15y ago
  This isn't something that I can provide statistics for, but it seems to me that most news stories take the heavily American-centric angle on the topic. The New Yorker article provides valuable perspective. Of course I support slow and steady pressure on the American corporations involved, but paternalism should be avoided.

scarmig 15y ago

"The Chinese care more about learning and being productive than they do about how many sick days and annual leave days they will get each year." Thank god there's some white dude here to share the truth about what those Orientals want. Weekends and health insurance? pffft. The only thing Chinese people value is hard work! (And I'm someone who's not terribly shocked or upset at Foxconn. Terrible article, nonetheless.)

lunaru 15y ago
Not to be overly sensitive, but I believe the term "Orientals" is derogatory. Even if used in jest, you wouldn't use something like the "N" word casually (http://www.lifeintheusa.com/people/asians.htm http://www.lifeintheusa.com/people/asians.htm). Just pointing this out for the sake of clean conversation.
- drats 15y ago
  It's obvious that scarmig is parodying the comments Ruslan makes in the article and thus using the term "Orientals" to criticise and not in his/her own voice. Well perhaps it's not obvious to hyper-ventilating PC police so intent on keeping things "clean" you write a post attacking someone who likely agrees with you.. Edit: You were on the right track when you said "not to be overly sensitive" because even with your misinterpretation of scarmig you were still aware that you were being an annoying whiner.
eli_gottlieb 15y ago
Besides, as a matter of sheer fact, the Chinese get more annual leave days than, say, Americans.

eli_gottlieb 15y ago

Her response reminded me of how I felt about work when I started Kogan. Working long hours is not a sign that workers are being exploited. I know plenty of entrepreneurs who are very excited that they spend almost every waking moment creating something that will make the world a better place. The Chinese strike me as very enterprising people, who want to improve their lives and are prepared to work hard to achieve their goals. So basically: * This writer, for all his railing against an "ivory-tower assault on capitalism", does not understand the definition of exploitation as given by Marx: the difference between value produced by the worker and value captured by the worker. Entrepreneurs own the businesses at which they work, and can thus capture 100% of their work-value. Employees don't, and usually can't (not even through stock options). * This writer does not differentiate between a rapidly developing economy (China) and a stagnant, rent-seeking late-capitalist economy (United States). Assembly lines can be moved to new countries, or even replaced with robots. Winning a race to the bottom on labor arbitrage is no honor. The Chinese don't consider it an honor either: strikes and demonstrations for higher wages and shorter hours are actually quite common in modern China. People who were happy with their employer, their job, their wage, their learning opportunity and their livelihood would lose their job, despite the fact that they never once complained. This is a classic piece of capitalist propaganda brought to bear on every single proposal for improving the conditions of workers. Somehow, improving working conditions and wages for everyone will result in workaholics going emotionally unfulfilled by their sudden birth of free time. Bullshit. Workaholics will start a side-business in their free time. We also need to recognize that all countries go through a phase of industrial manufacturing during their development. This happened in England through the industrial revolution, and in the USA in the 19th century. We should not be trying to deprive the Chinese of increasing their prosperity through this significant and mandatory stage of development. We should every bit be encouraging the Chinese to proceed naturally through this phase of development by creating and enhancing labor protections and trade unions. I believe there is a lot of value in an open and transparent discussion over important issues. No you don't. You wrote this entire article to dismiss the current-day labor movement, in its Western branch and implicitly in its Chinese branch, out of hand.

stupidsheep 15y ago
booom!

rhdoenges 15y ago

This reads like a justification of poor labor conditions, which it is. Eerie echoes of the gilded age.