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Cooking and bird safety
- RachelF 3y agoI've sometimes wondered how they get the non-stick Teflon to stick to the metal pan base?
- BooneJS 3y agoAnyone try to physically polish cast iron? My Lodge pans are well seasoned but still have a rough surface area that can cause bits to catch.
- roboben 3y agoEither deglaze with water and scrub with a wooden spoon or try hot water and a bamboo brush or add a bit salt and scrub it with a sponge. Generally the more you use it the better it gets.
- quadrifoliate 3y agoI would like to know as well. A 12" Lodge skillet costs $30 [1]. A mirror-polished 12" Lodge skillet costs an eye-watering $250 [2]. Even if this is a special case, what is it about the polishing process that adds $100 or more to the base cost? I'd be interested to hear from anyone in the know. ---------------------------------------- [1] https://www.lodgecastiron.com/product/round-cast-iron-classic-skillet?sku=L10SK3 https://www.lodgecastiron.com/product/round-cast-iron-classi... [2] https://www.summershinemetalpolishing.com/product-page/mirror-polished-cast-iron-skillet https://www.summershinemetalpolishing.com/product-page/mirro...
- cultofmetatron 3y agoseems the polishing is done by a second party. by the website's own text, they are made to order. 250 for something an individual probably spends an hour or two on is not that bad in terms of price.
- brianwawok 3y agoSupply and demand?
- argiopetech 3y agoIt takes small flap/disk sanders, lots of flaps/disks, and lots of time. Just taking off the high spots takes 10-15 minutes. A mirror finish requires working through progressively finer polishing compounds and can be quite time consuming, particularly in the spots harder to reach with power/pneumatic tools (like the transition between the base of the pan and the walls). Edit: Given the text on the site, it appears this is a single individual craftsman polishing those pans, which likely also contributes.
- zer00eyz 3y agoDont do this. Get a carbon steel pan instead. Same material as wok's, and they will take a seasoning. I like the BelleVie, because it hits the mark on cost/quality, but you have to be accepting of a slightly uneven seasoning, or strip them once a year and start over (spring cleaning project).
- argiopetech 3y agoCarbon steel is a great choice for light cookware and general use (i.e., what you'd use a Teflon pan for), but cast iron beats it handily for e.g., searing or use over a fire. Cast takes longer to heat (and to develop even heat), but it has a high thermal mass (resists variation in heating) and is happy to dump that heat quickly into e.g., a steak.
- namdnay 3y agoEspecially since you can just get a carbon steel pan for 50
- argiopetech 3y agoYes, I used a DA orbital sander (pneumatic) to remove all the rough surface from the inside base of a Lodge pan. This, of course, removed the seasoned finish. The new surface was harder to season (took several months to get a uniform surface with no spots that would wear off under scraping/abrasion), but it's very capable now. I prefer it to the rough stock surface. Wear a respirator unless you want to taste rust every time you breathe for several days.
- m-ee 3y agoVintage cast iron pans have a smoother surface
- argiopetech 3y agoSome modern, e.g., Stargazer, pans also have a smoother surface, though with the requisite price bump due to the extra care and finishing needed post-casting. Thrift store/"buried in the back yard" pans are still my preference.
- starky 3y agoPolishing likely isn't required, but there are cast iron pans out there with a milled surface that seem to be a good compromise. That said, food sticking is mostly due to proteins bonding to the surface, so I'm not sure how important surface roughness is. I also have a carbon steel pan which is quite smooth, and I've not been able to get a seasoning on it that is as good as my cast iron pan so the cast iron remains more non-stick.
- pdq 3y agoGet a Carbon Steel pan instead. These are similar metal composition to cast iron, where you can season them with oils, but are forged (ie pressed) into shape, rather than cast. So you get a smooth surface, which is easier for non-stick use and lighter weight. Carbon steel are better for eggs, omelettes, etc, but cast iron are often better for steaks/meats, because they retain heat better. There are tons of videos on Youtube if you are curious.
- richiebful1 3y agoI clean mine with steel wool, which does the same thing as polishing. Works like a charm
- el_benhameen 3y agoI tried this. It was a huge pain in the ass, made a big mess, took a lot of time, and still isn’t perfect. It definitely has a better nonstick surface now, but while I’m usually inclined to be cheap and do things myself, I might spring for a pre-polished one in the future.
- gwking 3y agoI have done it. I picked a lodge cast iron off of a stoop once and it had started to rust. I used fine grit sandpaper in an electric sander and got a decent result. Compared to the other lodge pan that I bought new, the one I polished is smoother and nicer to use. [edit]: I did not polish it nearly as much as the mirror finished ones in the link nearby. I only did the cooking surface, and probably worked on it for 15 minutes.
- hindsightbias 3y agoThe JWST folks contacted me about my mirror-finish cast iron. Eggs still stick. I went through about a dozen different seasoning formulas from reddit. Still stick. Someone then insisted my #10 Lodge must be from the 40s when the iron had too much boron or whatever because of war shortages. Really. Every conspiracy in modern times is a distraction effort from the only real one: seasoning doesn’t work. I’m sure a few of them will show up here. They’re everywhere.
- switchbak 3y agoNot really sure what half of what you said actually means, but you can get excellent results with a cheapo lodge, grapeseed seasoning and cooking with butter. I'm lazy as hell, and it typically lasts me many months of effectively non-stick cooking. You can't cook acids with it, but I'm not sure where you've gotten the idea that seasoning doesn't work. Perhaps you haven't been able to make it work yet?
- bitslayer 3y agoCanary in the coal mine...
- doytch 3y agoIts a tempting thought, but remember that chocolate and grapes are toxic to dogs and we don’t worry about their effect on humans.
- buildbot 3y agoPTFE fumes are pretty toxic to us too - https://www.science.gov/topicpages/p/ptfe+fume+exposure.html#:~:text=These%20fumes%20can%20be%20highly,pulmonary%20edema%20with%20hemorrhagic%20inflammation https://www.science.gov/topicpages/p/ptfe+fume+exposure.html....
- roboben 3y agoSince a few years, I do own only iron pans. Teflon for home use as pans was a ridiculous idea: you need to take care of it and it will wear out after some time and needs to be replaced. Iron pans need very little care and get better with age. What is the point?
- JUNGLEISMASSIVE 3y ago[dead]
- etblg 3y agoIt's super non-stick. I know you're going to rebut with saying that iron pans are too, and I'm sure they are, but most people don't want to put in any level of the effort needed to make iron pans as non-stick as teflon. A lot of people care only a mild amount about cooking, and don't want to invest the time to know how to properly use a cast iron or a carbon steel (which I have and only seldom use). They'd rather get a non-stick pan which lasts a while anyway, throw whatever on there, and never worry about food sticking or cleaning it after.
- JoeAltmaier 3y agoHm. My cast-iron skillet I've used for 20 years doesn't stick. Ever. If there's a little stuck-on stuff on the bottom after use (should have put a little wine in there, gotten that flavor back into the dish, oh well) then a Scotch-brite bad and 30 seconds fixes it.
- NegativeLatency 3y ago> doesn't stick. Ever. > If there's a little stuck-on stuff So it does stick?
- JoeAltmaier 3y agoNot so I should use exotic plastic coatings (Teflon) and expensive cleaners to avoid. A few seconds gentle washing. There's way, way too much made over so-called 'non-stick' pans. Worst experience I even had with sticking? A non-stick pan.
- Tomte 3y agoReal title: Cooking and Bird Safety
- katmannthree 3y agoThis really undersells the risk here. If you have birds and don’t want to watch them die in agony just put the PTFE stuff in the bin.
- robust-cactus 3y agoCeramic pans these days seem like a pretty great option - non stick and non toxic. Only trade off is lower heat. I use ceramic mainly then switch to cast iron for high heat
- barrkel 3y agoCeramic that works with induction doesn't seem that common. Non-induction electric sucks (inefficient, slow response) and gas spews out indoor pollution.
- ta988 3y agoMy ceramic pans all died in 10yeara. just threw out my last one. stainless and iron some beeing 30 yo are still working fine (and the ceramic would get sticky with time anyway)
- KeplerBoy 3y agoPTFE fumes are also not exactly healthy for us humans.
- BubbleRings 3y agoThis. As in, don't do anything in places where you breathe that would kill a canary, even if you don't have a canary.
- buildbot 3y agoExtremely toxic - https://www.science.gov/topicpages/p/ptfe+fume+exposure.html#:~:text=These%20fumes%20can%20be%20highly,pulmonary%20edema%20with%20hemorrhagic%20inflammation https://www.science.gov/topicpages/p/ptfe+fume+exposure.html.... It’s funny, if you are into 3d printing a huge safety thing is not heating your hot end above 250c if you have a bowden tube - made of PTFE. Over 250C is the breakdown point, which seems like a stove would hit pretty easily.
- KeplerBoy 3y agoYes, recently swapped my hotend and discovered that the PTFE tube in my old hotend extended all the way into the heatbreak and started to disintegrate into brown-ish goo. I was pretty glad that I run it in a spare room.
- 542458 3y agoThat’s kinda half-right. The issue isn’t having a Bowden tube, it’s having teflon that extends into the hot part of the hotend. For example, a v6 lite can’t go above 250 regardless of whether it’s in a Bowden config or not, while a V6 can hit 350 with a Bowden tube.
- montroser 3y agoYou can do quite a lot with All-Clad stainless cookware. Heat the empty pan for 120s then add oil and reduce heat as desired. From there any sticking will be truly minimal, and for any of that use a metal spatula and you'll be all set.
- dclowd9901 3y agoI like all clad for durability, and if you use copious oil or scale the pan as you cook, you usually meet minimal sticking substance, but it does require some cooking background to get there.
- williamdclt 3y agoIt also requires some $$. For most people who aren’t keen cooks, there’s much cheaper stainless steel alternatives that get the job done, a simple ikea pan is fine
- richiebful1 3y agoTramontina are really good value in stainless pans imo
- williamdclt 3y agoagreed, but harder to find in Europe
- graypegg 3y agoStainless steel with some basic seasoning every once in a while (oil, high heat, it’s easy to do) has done me well for a long time. I do keep a non stick around just for eggs though, hard to beat.
- namdnay 3y agoI’m not sure you can really season stainless steel? It’s not porous
- williamdclt 3y agoYou’re right that you don’t season stainless steel, but I think it is porous, that’s why it sticks (don’t quote me on that)
- reaperman 3y agoI have gotten an amazing season on stainless steel by slowly cooking oil onto it. It crosslinke into a super hard super smooth almost ceramic surface. You can also use a drill attachment polish one stainless steel pan to a mirror chrome finish, then heat it up, add oil and add the rgg to thr cold oil. For me that guarantees teflon level performance of nonstick. However, the mirror finish has lower emissivity so its a bit weird at first when a hot pan doesnt seem to transfer heat to the food at nearly the rate that it “should”.
- SkyPuncher 3y agoYou can’t season it like cast, but you can definitely get a really nice anti-stuck surface on it. A lot of people will treat their woks with oil to get that type of low stick surface.
- namdnay 3y agoWoks are carbon steel, not stainless
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoUsually woks are carbon steel rather than stainless though, and definitely need an oil seasoning.
- syntaxing 3y agoJust use ceramic pans instead, they're pretty affordable nowadays. Admittedly, they wear out just like Teflon pans but it does the same job. The biggest caveat is that you have to clean them well. I usually let some water boil on it and it gets off any of the gunk that makes food stick to it.
- kylehotchkiss 3y agoI have two small birds and to accommodate them we switched over to ceramic nonstick only. The Greenpan ones are fantastic if you keep metal out and don’t put them in the dishwasher, which i noticed accelerated the wear. I wish it could be repaired more easily but better than than eating or breathing a Teflon flake
- wkat4242 3y agoI wonder how, it's not supposed to react with anything? Clearly that's not actually true. And if so, what else we know about it isn't?
- starky 3y agoTeflon heated above around 300C releases toxic gases as it breaks down. That is what this article is referring to.
- Sporktacular 3y agoToxic only to birds of course. Because we can trust chemicals companies when they tell us to relax :)
- sudosysgen 3y agoThey're toxic to humans as well, just far less. Under no circumstance should you allow PTFE pan to exceed 250C, as the manufacturer normally tells you to.
- raverbashing 3y ago> Unattended cookware that overheats—or cookware that’s heated up without anything added to the pan—can release fumes that are toxic to birds So, it's not Teflon. It's burning your pan (I wouldn't recommended breathing that in neither. And I would definitely not recommend you put your pan in the fire without any thermal load)
- buildbot 3y agoNo, its teflon burning in your pan…
- raverbashing 3y agoThe list of things that become toxic once you burn them is a very long one
- alwayslikethis 3y agoNot any of the other common materials for pans. Steel, cast iron, ceramic, none of these become toxic even at 500 C
- inimino 3y agoFortunately your stove isn't capable of burning steel. Preheating the empty pan is a basic technique in more than one culinary tradition.
- sudosysgen 3y agoYour stove is capable of burning your oil and your food, which will make carcinogens. Preheating an empty pan is just not something you should do if you're cooking with Teflon. You'll want to at least put some oil or something in there, or have a temperature control stove. It's a tradition that doesn't apply.
- inimino 3y agoYou may have missed who I was replying to in the thread. The toplevel comment quotes Teflon's website talking about "cookware" in a generic sense, like heating up a pan with nothing in it is universally bad. That's bullshit. Obviously Teflon doesn't want to directly admit that it is specifically Teflon that, when heated, releases gases that will kill your birds dead. This happens at temperatures that would be no problem at all for stainless or carbon steel. That was my point. It's not the "overheating cookware" that's the problem, corporate weasel wording aside, it's specifically the Teflon that is the problem. I don't own or use any non-stick cookware.
- gcheong 3y agoProbably a good idea to keep any birds away from the kitchen when actively cooking regardless of the type of cookware you’re using. The main danger from Teflon cookware comes from overheating it but anything cooked to a sufficiently high temperature would produce potentially toxic fumes to a bird not to mention if they’re flighted the trouble the could get into with hot pans or boiling water, etc.
- dmbche 3y agoHa - I had a line cook show me to get a pan fuming hot, no oil, before throwing mushrooms in, the moisture from the mushrooms create a ledenfrost effect and you get as close as you can to having some browning on the mushrooms (while keeping a lot if moisture in). Can't burn em! I'm unhappy that I've done this exclusively with t-fal non stick pans over the years. Going to get myself a nice 3 ply stainless pan today! Edit0: If you try it, the mushrooms sound like sneakers squeaking in a gymnasium.
- monetus 3y agoCarbon steel and cast iron are worthy choices as well
- el_benhameen 3y agoAnother good method for getting mushrooms to brown and crisp without getting them oil-logged is to cook them in some water to break down their structure. The end of this video details the technique, although I usually use more than 1/4 cup of water. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XLPLCmwBLBY&pp=ygUOZGFuIG11c2hyb29tcyA%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XLPLCmwBLBY&pp=ygUOZGFuIG11c2h...
- lm28469 3y agoVery high heat + Teflon is the exact combination you want to avoid.
- sethammons 3y agoI recall reading about a thanksgiving meal and the off gassing from teflon killed 15 parrots throughout the house in about 15 minutes.
- 0max 3y agoEveryone here be talking about cookware where increasingly teflon is getting produced via gore-tex and going into higher end products for companies like Vans, Nike and Adidas as a waterproof feature.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fuzzy2 3y agoIncreasingly? It's been there for decades. This "article" is specifically about overheating teflon-coated cookware, and nothing else. (Sure hope your shoes are not on fire!)
- beefman 3y agoSo is butter https://doi.org/10.1080/0002889738506828 https://doi.org/10.1080/0002889738506828
- thelastgallon 3y agoAlternatives (1) Carbon steel (2) Stainless Steel (3) Cast Iron I think all three work on induction stoves as well.
- wackget 3y ago"Still" toxic? Like you expected birds to evolve out of it or something?
- cat_plus_plus 3y agoThat's a clickbait title, the article implies that a lot of kitchen fumes are toxic to birds and that can include fumes released when a skillet is left on the stove with nothing in it. It could me that teflon is worse than everything else, but there is not enough information to reach this conclusion. Would a plastic handle melting and burning on the stove be better? Chili fumes of strengths that make humans cough and eyes water? I don't yet see evidence that if one gets rid of teflon, it's Ok to cook around birds without same precautions.
- katmannthree 3y agoThis article from Teflon.com is not clickbait, they’re just massively underselling the risk of fluorocarbons to birds. Burning a teflon pan will straight up kill any birds in your home. It’s not a minor irritant like onions, you can’t just crack a window to let the fumes out, if they’re exposed they’ll start having seizures within minutes and be dead before you could get them to a vet (not that there’s really anything that could be done). Just as a general rule birds are delicate, there’s a lot given up to allow for flight. Teflon is somewhat risky for humans too but it’s not remotely on the same scale.
- Sporktacular 3y agoJust to birds, of course. We have nothing to worry about until 15 years from now that we learn burning teflon causes some poorly understood conditions the maker knew about all along. Ban it already. https://theintercept.com/series/the-teflon-toxin/ https://theintercept.com/series/the-teflon-toxin/
- ksd482 3y agoWhat could be a better alternative to non-stick pans?
- deadletters 3y agoRegular pans?
- vGPU 3y agoCast iron perhaps? With an enamel coating?
- yumraj 3y agoCast iron is better without enamel and regular seasoning IMHO. We’ve completely transitioned to stainless steel and regular cast iron for all cooking.
- doug_durham 3y agoHemochromatosis is the largest genetic issue in the American population affecting millions. Iron cookware can be toxic to that population.
- crtified 3y agoMy main issue with non-stick cookware, aside from the temperature constraints which limit its culinary usage, and the physical constraints which limit implement usage, is the way it liberally absorbs modern dishwashing soaps, then imparts a nice soapy taste to the next thing cooked in it. Some online anecdotes <everyone sits up and pays attention> suggest that such absorbed odors are oil soluble and will not 'wash out' easily, except by way of the next batch of hot oil - a speculation borne out by my experience.
- doug_durham 3y agoIf you are of British or Irish ancestry you may want to get genetically tested before you switch to iron cookware. Hemochromatosis (iron overload disease) is a genetic disease that is common in that population. Everyone in my family has it and we have to be mindful. There are probably millions with the mutation that are unaware.
- DemocracyFTW2 3y agoCame here to add that I've never looked back ever since being gifted two forged iron pans (thanks Birgit!). Because they had been in use for years (decades?) at that point already I could just start using them. I immediately became a big fan of these pans, if a bit incredulous, wondering how on Earth we've all come to use Teflon and other PFASes stuck to the heated things we prepare our food with when one of the oldest and most available materials known to mankind does such a great job. At first I didn't listen and cleaned the pan with hot water and dish soap; don't do that. Just take a piece of suitable paper (I'm keeping a toilet paper roll around for that kitchen to avoid wasting the kitchen paper which is overkill here IMO) and get rid of the excess fat after use; after using butter, I warm the pan a bit first. It's just swipe swipe swipe, done and the paper goes to the compost. A very satisfactory state of affairs. Of course one can also re-use the fat or oil if deemed not too over-used; in that case just get out any bits the messy cook left in from the previous meal. When you get a new pan then the first burn-in may seem intimidating but it's not rocket science; you're even allowed to let the oil smoke a bit nd if you don't believe me search for Adam Ragusea on YouTube who did a great video specifically on burn-in (of cast iron pans but no difference with forged ones AFAICT). Hardly anything gets stuck in my pan, ever; even the sunny-side-up eggs just lift off. Before the iron pan I had a white ceramic one; that love lasted but a few months before the ceramic had one tiny dent and, worse, some micro-scratches and, presumably, many more nano-scratches that subtracted from its ability to repel stuff; it's been hanging for months on its hook, unused because why would I. It's not quite clear to me what caused the scratches because I was quite religious with only using a wooden spatula with this pan, although in some occasions I neglected that and sometimes the only thing that worked would be a thin metal lifter (orwhachamaycallit); I am not at all careful in that regard with the iron pan and it just bears with me, thank you pan. To the people out there with slight eating <del>disorders</del> challenges and those inexperienced in cooking slash unwilling to cook—getting the right, mostly fairly cheap tools is an essential step because it lowers the entry fee to getting shit done. Even if it's just another sunny-side-up, well if it always sticks to the pan and / or if your pan forbids you to use that very capable flat-metal lifter, then it's just that much more frustrating each and every time.