11 ms·

A carbohydrate revolution is speeding up pro cycling

58 points by greenburger 3y ago

jackmott 3y ago
[dead]
bluedevil2k 3y ago
> How has the peloton gotten so fast? This question in the article is almost comically naive. In the most drug-filled sport in history, with its most famous athlete a known drug cheat, the answer to this isn’t “carbohydrates”, it’s almost assuredly “drugs not being tested for”.
- Manfred 3y ago
  That seems like an unfair response. There are certainly still drugs in the peloton and there are a lot of teams trying to stretch the gray areas. But given the amount of testing and verification of those tests by reputable journalists it's unlikely that it would have the same impact it did in the early 2000's. Training methods and nutrition have made a large impact on all levels of cycling in the past 10 years, and from personal experience I know that's certainly not all drugs.
  - zemvpferreira 3y ago
    Lance Armstrong was USADA tested 60 times, and likely hundreds more by other organizations, without a single positive. It's all drugs.
    - Manfred 3y ago
      The fact that someone cheated the system in the past is in no way proof that the same thing is happening now.
      - pengaru 3y ago
        Proof, no, but the best predictor of future behavior we have is past behavior.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Of course it's not proof of cheating, but it is strong evidence not to trust the testing unless something very fundamental has changed. And your argument strongly depends on accurate testing.
      - vlovich123 3y ago
        First it wasn’t just him. The entire sport has been plagued by accusations that the top performers are doping. Secondly, he won 7 consecutive races. When he dropped out, the race times didn’t change that much and now the Tour de France winning times are faster than Armstrong. You can claim that it’s better bikes, training, diet etc. The simplest explanation given all the facts though seems like doping.
- VeejayRampay 3y ago
  this is absolutely the right answer to the question that the peloton can go faster now that it did in the worst of the EPO years is a dire reminder that it'll always be a race between cheaters and the doctors that come up with reliable tests other ludicrous explanations coming from people that make a living from the cycling industry is "improvement in bike technology" (which then again is absolutely laughable)
  - lormayna 3y ago
    I am an amateur cycling and I am pretty sure that bike technology is a key factor in improvement in cycling performances. Better aerodynamic, disk brakes and more sliding wheels are a thing. There is also another factor that is having an huge impact on cycling performances: power meters. Power meters help a lot on energy and fatigue management and also on training in a scientific way. In the 90s (the EPO era that you are referring), pros used only HR monitor, right now pros are using PM and a lot of other sensors to track every details of their body. I am not saying that there is no doping, but reducing the improvements only to doping is a bit silly.
    - alephxyz 3y ago
      They actually started using powermeters in the 90s, Lemond was one of the first to train using one. Nothing compared to what we have today though.
      - lormayna 3y ago
        I remember a former pro that I know bought tlhis first PM around 2005: it was crazy expensive (more than 1500€ at that time) an not comparable with the PM that we have now (Assioma Duo costs 6/700€).But what it was a really game changer is data analysis tool: right now using free tools like GoldenCheetah or intervals.icu you can have an incredible set of metrics and analytics. Thanks to that, there was an huge improvement on training theory in the last year: things like VO2Max or Z2 where unknown in the '00. And today pros are using also other sensors to have a more olystic overview of the body condition and training effects: glucose meter (banned on races), lactate sensor, basal temperature sensor, etc.
- ImprovedSilence 3y ago
  I’m not going to disagree with the sentiment that drugs are speeding up the peleton. but >>” most drug filled sport”. comes off as probably naive. o think footbal, hockey, soccer, or baseball are are more clean is laughable, they just dont test for anything EVER, except maybe steroids every so often. id bet my bottom dollar all those pro sports with $$$$ flying around HAMMER any drug cocktail that might get them the edge. its just not tested or as public as pro cycling.
  - JauntyHatAngle 3y ago
    Doping is probably still common, but the more endurance or speed based the more drugs help. Soccer values attributes drugs exaggerate - but it has a skill component that is more important vs cycling. Soccer also has breaks and substitutes and ways to slow the game down to close the gap. I'm not ignorant to the tactics and technique required in cycling, but its a smaller part of the sport vs tactics and skill in football. So it's not as important to dope. But yes, still happens.
    - alephxyz 3y ago
      PEDs aren't just for endurance. Prescription painkillers, stimulants and corticosteroids are easy to get prescriptions for or even TUEs. The typical player in the NHL gets tested 2-3 times a year, and almost never in the off season. Some sports barely test more than once a year. In cycling it's closer to once a month for an average rider but it can get a lot higher if you're successful as most orgs will test their top 3 after every stage or race.
      - Someone 3y ago
        > In cycling it's closer to once a month for an average rider but it can get a lot higher Extreme example (https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jumbo-visma-and-uae-team-emirates-undergo-extra-anti-doping-tests-at-the-tour-de-france https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jumbo-visma-and-uae-team-em...): “Jonas Vingegaard has had no fewer than four blood tests in the last 48 hours. We are happy to participate in this.”
    - 3y ago
- Gualdrapo 3y ago
  > its most famous athlete a known drug cheat I'd bet you're thinking about Lance Armstrong, and arguably that person would be Eddy Merckx - but the funny thing is that with either one that premise holds true
  - zimpenfish 3y ago
    To be fair, with cycling, you can pick pretty much any famous one and you'd stand a fair chance of picking a doper (either exposed or widely suspected.)
- rokkitmensch 3y ago
  I would love to see some good performance distribution charts. Outliers are interesting for all sorts of reasons!
pablobaz 3y ago
So many words but so little actual information as to how the increased consumption is now possible.
- Manfred 3y ago
  Well, they realized that 40 grams per hour was not enough and you can actually absorb more. Then they experimented with mixing various carbohydrates (eg. adding fructose) and found a better balance. They also found out that you have to train your intestines to absorb the mix.
heymijo 3y ago
>"Riders are able to eat so many carbohydrates on the bike now, almost twice as much as before." >“But what has changed is the way riders get their glycogen fix. New formulations from nutrition brands like Maurten, Precision Fuel and Hydration, and Science in Sport means the age-old carb “ceiling” of 60-90 grams per hour has been blown into another orbit.” “Consumption thresholds have been shifted thanks to “hydrogel” delivery models and new glucose-fructose ratios that ensure what goes down, stays down.” I would have liked to see some actual details about the carbohydrate changes that have made the increased tolerance so much larger. I looked at the three brands mentioned and the actual carbohydrate sources listed were tried and true things like maltodextrin [1], maltodextrin/fructose [2], and glucose/fructose [3]. I thought I might see something like highly branched cyclic dextrin. Since it doesn't seem to be any new form of carbohydrate, I'm curious what ancillary ingredients and/or ratios are proving to be the difference maker(s). [1] https://www.scienceinsport.com/eu/go-isotonic-energy-gels-sis https://www.scienceinsport.com/eu/go-isotonic-energy-gels-si... [2] https://www.precisionhydration.com/us/en/products/pf-30-gel/ https://www.precisionhydration.com/us/en/products/pf-30-gel/ [3] https://www.maurten.com/products/gel-160-us https://www.maurten.com/products/gel-160-us
- rokob 3y ago
  I believe this is just referring to the glucose:fructose ratio now being closer to 1:1 than what it used to be. In the old days people only looked at glucose and the 60g/hr limit is more or less for that metabolic pathway. Fructose takes a different path so you can easily go to 120g if you are using a 1:1 mix. Also the old 60g/hr limit isn’t universal so that is how you get some people that can handle 150g+
  - leetbulb 3y ago
    Just adding my own info here: When I rode, years ago, my intake was ~110g/hr during 100mi+ rides. This was with the GU brand gels which is a mixture primarily compose of maltodextrin and fructose.
- plorg 3y ago
  I think the author is also try to describe how cyclists train and how recent findings about recovery allow athletes to be constantly consuming calories. But the article is vague and repetitive and it's hard to know exactly what the author is trying to say.
lincoln20xx 3y ago
Drugs are a big part of the "how are people going faster for longer" equation, of course. But in an endurance context, adequate fuelling is likely even more important than a new magic drug, because it doesn't matter how many drugs you take if you don't replenish your energy reserves. You can have the biggest engine in the world, or the most efficient, but once you run out of fuel, it's not going anywhere. For those nearing the pointy end of strength sports, drugs are generally seen as a 10-15% boost for high intermediate level lifters, and single digit for advanced/expert. When the difference between first place and not ending up on the board is sometimes 1-3%, the drugs are mandatory. But everything else has to be there as well. Drugs don't replace hard work, dedication, and proper nutrition - they augment it. If you safely can consume 10% more calories hourly than your competitors in a long endurance race, that means you can burn more calories and put out more average power than everyone else who is likely on a very similar drug cocktail.
robotburrito 3y ago
Was Durianrider correct all these years? Many cyclists now just skip the expensive gels and literally put some sugar in their water bottle.
- lormayna 3y ago
  I heard it in a podcast from a professional cyclist too.
- Lio 3y ago
  > “At the time I was being beaten by a guy who was claiming to build bikes out of washing machines, eating marmalade sandwiches and getting up and do the hour record. It was quite irritating to say the least,” - Chris Boardman. I went to a film premier about the great Graeme Obree and afterwards he gave a talk. He mentioned that people used to laugh at him for eating marmalade sandwiches heavily in training. He countered that as far as he could see sugars are are just sugars no mater where you source them from ...and he happens to like marmalade and bread. His down to earth approach to cycling was so ahead of it's time. He earned all his success the hard way. A truly interesting bloke. https://stories.blacksheepcycling.cc/the-marmalade-man# https://stories.blacksheepcycling.cc/the-marmalade-man#!
  - zh3 3y ago
    For anyone who hasn't seen it, look up "The flying Scotsman" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472268/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472268/
ano-ther 3y ago
How do they adapt between racing and less strenuous times? Must be hard to maintain that kind of eating discipline.
- simmerup 3y ago
  If you see the hell professional cyclists put themselves through, eating discipline is probably the least of their concerns
- Lio 3y ago
  Riders like Pidcock, Van Aert and Van der Pole will be racing all year round swapping between Road, MTB and Cyclocross. In "Faster: The Obsession, Science and Luck Behind the World's Fastest Cyclists" Michael Hutchinson talks about how much effort Team Sky/Inneos into planing diets. They copied the way doctors help cancer and terminally ill patients that have difficulty absorbing nutrients. The team use medical dietitians work out exact plans for each rider. The final ingredient is guilt. Geraint Thomas talks on his podcast about how he could go off plan when no one is watching but that he knows it will come out when the team next meet up and start measuring performance. Guilt and fear of failure keeps them on the programme. It's no coincidence that a lot of professional cyclist go a bit off they rails after they finally retire.
  - lormayna 3y ago
    Some cyclists are suffering from burnout and end their career early. Think about Tom Dumolin
- Someone 3y ago
  An army marches on its stomach, and so do cycling teams. Good teams make sure they have a good cook. https://amacx.com/blogs/news/what-does-a-team-jumbo-visma-rider-eat-during-the-tour-de-france https://amacx.com/blogs/news/what-does-a-team-jumbo-visma-ri...: “For more than three weeks, two chefs from the team prepare 5 personalized meals daily for each rider. They prepare these in their own fully equipped cooking truck using only fresh groceries from Jumbo. This ensures optimal hygiene at all times, and the exact composition of each dish remains known. Because 'taste fatigue' is a serious danger during an exhausting race like the Tour de France, the chefs ensure that the riders are never served the same meal twice. This way, the riders look forward to the next meal every time, and it is ensured that they can keep eating.”
rswskg 3y ago
'This season saw 7w/kg become the new norm for grand tour contending climbers. Classics champions pushed 5.5w/kg for hours on end.' Armstrong and co were doing 7w/kg. Hint hint

58 points by greenburger 3y ago

[dead]

> How has the peloton gotten so fast? This question in the article is almost comically naive. In the most drug-filled sport in history, with its most famous athlete a known drug cheat, the answer to this isn’t “carbohydrates”, it’s almost assuredly “drugs not being tested for”.

Manfred 3y ago
That seems like an unfair response. There are certainly still drugs in the peloton and there are a lot of teams trying to stretch the gray areas. But given the amount of testing and verification of those tests by reputable journalists it's unlikely that it would have the same impact it did in the early 2000's. Training methods and nutrition have made a large impact on all levels of cycling in the past 10 years, and from personal experience I know that's certainly not all drugs.
- zemvpferreira 3y ago
  Lance Armstrong was USADA tested 60 times, and likely hundreds more by other organizations, without a single positive. It's all drugs.
  - Manfred 3y ago
    The fact that someone cheated the system in the past is in no way proof that the same thing is happening now.
    - pengaru 3y ago
      Proof, no, but the best predictor of future behavior we have is past behavior.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Of course it's not proof of cheating, but it is strong evidence not to trust the testing unless something very fundamental has changed. And your argument strongly depends on accurate testing.
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      First it wasn’t just him. The entire sport has been plagued by accusations that the top performers are doping. Secondly, he won 7 consecutive races. When he dropped out, the race times didn’t change that much and now the Tour de France winning times are faster than Armstrong. You can claim that it’s better bikes, training, diet etc. The simplest explanation given all the facts though seems like doping.
VeejayRampay 3y ago
this is absolutely the right answer to the question that the peloton can go faster now that it did in the worst of the EPO years is a dire reminder that it'll always be a race between cheaters and the doctors that come up with reliable tests other ludicrous explanations coming from people that make a living from the cycling industry is "improvement in bike technology" (which then again is absolutely laughable)
- lormayna 3y ago
  I am an amateur cycling and I am pretty sure that bike technology is a key factor in improvement in cycling performances. Better aerodynamic, disk brakes and more sliding wheels are a thing. There is also another factor that is having an huge impact on cycling performances: power meters. Power meters help a lot on energy and fatigue management and also on training in a scientific way. In the 90s (the EPO era that you are referring), pros used only HR monitor, right now pros are using PM and a lot of other sensors to track every details of their body. I am not saying that there is no doping, but reducing the improvements only to doping is a bit silly.
  - alephxyz 3y ago
    They actually started using powermeters in the 90s, Lemond was one of the first to train using one. Nothing compared to what we have today though.
    - lormayna 3y ago
      I remember a former pro that I know bought tlhis first PM around 2005: it was crazy expensive (more than 1500€ at that time) an not comparable with the PM that we have now (Assioma Duo costs 6/700€).But what it was a really game changer is data analysis tool: right now using free tools like GoldenCheetah or intervals.icu you can have an incredible set of metrics and analytics. Thanks to that, there was an huge improvement on training theory in the last year: things like VO2Max or Z2 where unknown in the '00. And today pros are using also other sensors to have a more olystic overview of the body condition and training effects: glucose meter (banned on races), lactate sensor, basal temperature sensor, etc.
ImprovedSilence 3y ago
I’m not going to disagree with the sentiment that drugs are speeding up the peleton. but >>” most drug filled sport”. comes off as probably naive. o think footbal, hockey, soccer, or baseball are are more clean is laughable, they just dont test for anything EVER, except maybe steroids every so often. id bet my bottom dollar all those pro sports with $$$$ flying around HAMMER any drug cocktail that might get them the edge. its just not tested or as public as pro cycling.
- JauntyHatAngle 3y ago
  Doping is probably still common, but the more endurance or speed based the more drugs help. Soccer values attributes drugs exaggerate - but it has a skill component that is more important vs cycling. Soccer also has breaks and substitutes and ways to slow the game down to close the gap. I'm not ignorant to the tactics and technique required in cycling, but its a smaller part of the sport vs tactics and skill in football. So it's not as important to dope. But yes, still happens.
  - alephxyz 3y ago
    PEDs aren't just for endurance. Prescription painkillers, stimulants and corticosteroids are easy to get prescriptions for or even TUEs. The typical player in the NHL gets tested 2-3 times a year, and almost never in the off season. Some sports barely test more than once a year. In cycling it's closer to once a month for an average rider but it can get a lot higher if you're successful as most orgs will test their top 3 after every stage or race.
    - Someone 3y ago
      > In cycling it's closer to once a month for an average rider but it can get a lot higher Extreme example (https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jumbo-visma-and-uae-team-emirates-undergo-extra-anti-doping-tests-at-the-tour-de-france https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jumbo-visma-and-uae-team-em...): “Jonas Vingegaard has had no fewer than four blood tests in the last 48 hours. We are happy to participate in this.”
  - 3y ago
Gualdrapo 3y ago
> its most famous athlete a known drug cheat I'd bet you're thinking about Lance Armstrong, and arguably that person would be Eddy Merckx - but the funny thing is that with either one that premise holds true
- zimpenfish 3y ago
  To be fair, with cycling, you can pick pretty much any famous one and you'd stand a fair chance of picking a doper (either exposed or widely suspected.)
rokkitmensch 3y ago
I would love to see some good performance distribution charts. Outliers are interesting for all sorts of reasons!

pablobaz 3y ago

So many words but so little actual information as to how the increased consumption is now possible.

Manfred 3y ago
Well, they realized that 40 grams per hour was not enough and you can actually absorb more. Then they experimented with mixing various carbohydrates (eg. adding fructose) and found a better balance. They also found out that you have to train your intestines to absorb the mix.

heymijo 3y ago

>"Riders are able to eat so many carbohydrates on the bike now, almost twice as much as before." >“But what has changed is the way riders get their glycogen fix. New formulations from nutrition brands like Maurten, Precision Fuel and Hydration, and Science in Sport means the age-old carb “ceiling” of 60-90 grams per hour has been blown into another orbit.” “Consumption thresholds have been shifted thanks to “hydrogel” delivery models and new glucose-fructose ratios that ensure what goes down, stays down.” I would have liked to see some actual details about the carbohydrate changes that have made the increased tolerance so much larger. I looked at the three brands mentioned and the actual carbohydrate sources listed were tried and true things like maltodextrin [1], maltodextrin/fructose [2], and glucose/fructose [3]. I thought I might see something like highly branched cyclic dextrin. Since it doesn't seem to be any new form of carbohydrate, I'm curious what ancillary ingredients and/or ratios are proving to be the difference maker(s). [1] https://www.scienceinsport.com/eu/go-isotonic-energy-gels-sis https://www.scienceinsport.com/eu/go-isotonic-energy-gels-si... [2] https://www.precisionhydration.com/us/en/products/pf-30-gel/ https://www.precisionhydration.com/us/en/products/pf-30-gel/ [3] https://www.maurten.com/products/gel-160-us https://www.maurten.com/products/gel-160-us

rokob 3y ago
I believe this is just referring to the glucose:fructose ratio now being closer to 1:1 than what it used to be. In the old days people only looked at glucose and the 60g/hr limit is more or less for that metabolic pathway. Fructose takes a different path so you can easily go to 120g if you are using a 1:1 mix. Also the old 60g/hr limit isn’t universal so that is how you get some people that can handle 150g+
- leetbulb 3y ago
  Just adding my own info here: When I rode, years ago, my intake was ~110g/hr during 100mi+ rides. This was with the GU brand gels which is a mixture primarily compose of maltodextrin and fructose.
plorg 3y ago
I think the author is also try to describe how cyclists train and how recent findings about recovery allow athletes to be constantly consuming calories. But the article is vague and repetitive and it's hard to know exactly what the author is trying to say.

lincoln20xx 3y ago

Drugs are a big part of the "how are people going faster for longer" equation, of course. But in an endurance context, adequate fuelling is likely even more important than a new magic drug, because it doesn't matter how many drugs you take if you don't replenish your energy reserves. You can have the biggest engine in the world, or the most efficient, but once you run out of fuel, it's not going anywhere. For those nearing the pointy end of strength sports, drugs are generally seen as a 10-15% boost for high intermediate level lifters, and single digit for advanced/expert. When the difference between first place and not ending up on the board is sometimes 1-3%, the drugs are mandatory. But everything else has to be there as well. Drugs don't replace hard work, dedication, and proper nutrition - they augment it. If you safely can consume 10% more calories hourly than your competitors in a long endurance race, that means you can burn more calories and put out more average power than everyone else who is likely on a very similar drug cocktail.

robotburrito 3y ago

Was Durianrider correct all these years? Many cyclists now just skip the expensive gels and literally put some sugar in their water bottle.

lormayna 3y ago
I heard it in a podcast from a professional cyclist too.
Lio 3y ago
> “At the time I was being beaten by a guy who was claiming to build bikes out of washing machines, eating marmalade sandwiches and getting up and do the hour record. It was quite irritating to say the least,” - Chris Boardman. I went to a film premier about the great Graeme Obree and afterwards he gave a talk. He mentioned that people used to laugh at him for eating marmalade sandwiches heavily in training. He countered that as far as he could see sugars are are just sugars no mater where you source them from ...and he happens to like marmalade and bread. His down to earth approach to cycling was so ahead of it's time. He earned all his success the hard way. A truly interesting bloke. https://stories.blacksheepcycling.cc/the-marmalade-man# https://stories.blacksheepcycling.cc/the-marmalade-man#!
- zh3 3y ago
  For anyone who hasn't seen it, look up "The flying Scotsman" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472268/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472268/

ano-ther 3y ago

How do they adapt between racing and less strenuous times? Must be hard to maintain that kind of eating discipline.

simmerup 3y ago
If you see the hell professional cyclists put themselves through, eating discipline is probably the least of their concerns
Lio 3y ago
Riders like Pidcock, Van Aert and Van der Pole will be racing all year round swapping between Road, MTB and Cyclocross. In "Faster: The Obsession, Science and Luck Behind the World's Fastest Cyclists" Michael Hutchinson talks about how much effort Team Sky/Inneos into planing diets. They copied the way doctors help cancer and terminally ill patients that have difficulty absorbing nutrients. The team use medical dietitians work out exact plans for each rider. The final ingredient is guilt. Geraint Thomas talks on his podcast about how he could go off plan when no one is watching but that he knows it will come out when the team next meet up and start measuring performance. Guilt and fear of failure keeps them on the programme. It's no coincidence that a lot of professional cyclist go a bit off they rails after they finally retire.
- lormayna 3y ago
  Some cyclists are suffering from burnout and end their career early. Think about Tom Dumolin
Someone 3y ago
An army marches on its stomach, and so do cycling teams. Good teams make sure they have a good cook. https://amacx.com/blogs/news/what-does-a-team-jumbo-visma-rider-eat-during-the-tour-de-france https://amacx.com/blogs/news/what-does-a-team-jumbo-visma-ri...: “For more than three weeks, two chefs from the team prepare 5 personalized meals daily for each rider. They prepare these in their own fully equipped cooking truck using only fresh groceries from Jumbo. This ensures optimal hygiene at all times, and the exact composition of each dish remains known. Because 'taste fatigue' is a serious danger during an exhausting race like the Tour de France, the chefs ensure that the riders are never served the same meal twice. This way, the riders look forward to the next meal every time, and it is ensured that they can keep eating.”

rswskg 3y ago

'This season saw 7w/kg become the new norm for grand tour contending climbers. Classics champions pushed 5.5w/kg for hours on end.' Armstrong and co were doing 7w/kg. Hint hint