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It's pretty frightening that we're allowed to carry on these potential portable flammable devices as a societal norm. I wonder if aviation authorities have disc

It's pretty frightening that we're allowed to carry on these potential portable flammable devices as a societal norm. I wonder if aviation authorities have discussed banning such devices on board, and forcing it into luggage, but had to balance it with keeping ~~toddlers~~ people occupied, and the backlash such a measure would cause.

pintxo 3y ago
You don’t want these devices in the cargo hold. As your ability to handle any fire issue there is massively impaired by the fact that you cannot access them there easily. While in the cabin, issues are mostly identified early and they have working processes to handle them.
- RockRobotRock 3y ago
  Yeah but they have active fire detection and suppression systems in the cargo hold.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    Fire detection yes, but conventional suppression systems are useless against lithium battery fires. In the case of a lithium fire in the cargo hold, all the pilots can do is emergency land ASAP and pray that the fire won't damage too much of the control wiring until then.
    - RockRobotRock 3y ago
      Interesting, I didn't know that. I found this fire suppression company which makes a better suppressant than Halon and is specifically targeted for Li-ion fires: https://cellblockfcs.com/cellblockex/ https://cellblockfcs.com/cellblockex/
      - xattt 3y ago
        It may be a great approach for new build. It’s not doing anything for the thousands of planes in the air with a suppressant-specific system in place.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        Yeah but you gotta place your li-ion batteries inside the container of the device/battery and that container has to be rugged as well to withstand the intense heat and not release enough of that heat outside to ignite nearby other cargo. That stuff definitely has its place for commercial shippers of li-ion stuff, but it's useless for normal traveller bags.
- amelius 3y ago
  Just depressurize the cargo area.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - javagram 3y ago
    Lithium ion battery fires are self-oxidizing, according to google search results.
    - amelius 3y ago
      See my answer to ben-schaaf's comment. It would destroy the suitcase of the owner of the phone, perhaps.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    It can't be depressurized independently from the passenger area. It's part of the same pressure vessel.
  - ben-schaaf 3y ago
    Battery fires like lithium-ion are self-oxidising.
    - amelius 3y ago
      Yes, so it will get very hot locally. However, the rest of the stuff in cargo will not catch fire, which is the main point.
fweimer 3y ago
I'm sure people have thought about it. Currently, spare lithium batteries are permitted in carry-on baggage only: https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage There is an exception for batteries installed in equipment for checked-in baggage if certain precautions are met. While the referenced article is a product advertisement, the FAA lists quite a few incidents: https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/resources/lithium_batteries/incidents https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/resources/lithium_batteries/incid... Maybe issues related to in-flight charging could be prevent by changing regulations. For the rest, it's probably easier to deal with events before they spiral out of control if they occur in the cabin.
jdblair 3y ago
Wouldn’t it be worse in checked luggage? In the cargo hold a fire would have time to build up a serious level before detection. I think this is why you aren’t allowed to pack lithium batteries in checked luggage.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  You are generally allowed lithium batteries in checked luggage. They must be installed in a device. https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/portable-electronic-devices-with-batteries#:~:text=Most%20consumer%20personal%20electronic%20devices,%2C%20watches%2C%20calculators%2C%20etc https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/portable-electronic-devi....
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - barrkel 3y ago
    Rules are slightly different in Europe. It's recommended not to pack them in checked luggage, and battery banks and e-cigarettes can't be checked in. https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/domains/passengers/dangerous-goods https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/domains/passengers/dangerous-g...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Dfiesl 3y ago
I agree. The fact that we go to such enormous lengths to prevent potentially nefarious items getting aboard an aircraft, yet we freely allow potentially explosive li-ion batteries is quite bizarre.

pintxo 3y ago

You don’t want these devices in the cargo hold. As your ability to handle any fire issue there is massively impaired by the fact that you cannot access them there easily. While in the cabin, issues are mostly identified early and they have working processes to handle them.

RockRobotRock 3y ago
Yeah but they have active fire detection and suppression systems in the cargo hold.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Fire detection yes, but conventional suppression systems are useless against lithium battery fires. In the case of a lithium fire in the cargo hold, all the pilots can do is emergency land ASAP and pray that the fire won't damage too much of the control wiring until then.
  - RockRobotRock 3y ago
    Interesting, I didn't know that. I found this fire suppression company which makes a better suppressant than Halon and is specifically targeted for Li-ion fires: https://cellblockfcs.com/cellblockex/ https://cellblockfcs.com/cellblockex/
    - xattt 3y ago
      It may be a great approach for new build. It’s not doing anything for the thousands of planes in the air with a suppressant-specific system in place.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      Yeah but you gotta place your li-ion batteries inside the container of the device/battery and that container has to be rugged as well to withstand the intense heat and not release enough of that heat outside to ignite nearby other cargo. That stuff definitely has its place for commercial shippers of li-ion stuff, but it's useless for normal traveller bags.
amelius 3y ago
Just depressurize the cargo area.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- javagram 3y ago
  Lithium ion battery fires are self-oxidizing, according to google search results.
  - amelius 3y ago
    See my answer to ben-schaaf's comment. It would destroy the suitcase of the owner of the phone, perhaps.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  It can't be depressurized independently from the passenger area. It's part of the same pressure vessel.
- ben-schaaf 3y ago
  Battery fires like lithium-ion are self-oxidising.
  - amelius 3y ago
    Yes, so it will get very hot locally. However, the rest of the stuff in cargo will not catch fire, which is the main point.

fweimer 3y ago

I'm sure people have thought about it. Currently, spare lithium batteries are permitted in carry-on baggage only: https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/lithium-batteries-baggage There is an exception for batteries installed in equipment for checked-in baggage if certain precautions are met. While the referenced article is a product advertisement, the FAA lists quite a few incidents: https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/resources/lithium_batteries/incidents https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/resources/lithium_batteries/incid... Maybe issues related to in-flight charging could be prevent by changing regulations. For the rest, it's probably easier to deal with events before they spiral out of control if they occur in the cabin.

jdblair 3y ago

Wouldn’t it be worse in checked luggage? In the cargo hold a fire would have time to build up a serious level before detection. I think this is why you aren’t allowed to pack lithium batteries in checked luggage.

sokoloff 3y ago
You are generally allowed lithium batteries in checked luggage. They must be installed in a device. https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/portable-electronic-devices-with-batteries#:~:text=Most%20consumer%20personal%20electronic%20devices,%2C%20watches%2C%20calculators%2C%20etc https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/portable-electronic-devi....
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- barrkel 3y ago
  Rules are slightly different in Europe. It's recommended not to pack them in checked luggage, and battery banks and e-cigarettes can't be checked in. https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/domains/passengers/dangerous-goods https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/domains/passengers/dangerous-g...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Dfiesl 3y ago

I agree. The fact that we go to such enormous lengths to prevent potentially nefarious items getting aboard an aircraft, yet we freely allow potentially explosive li-ion batteries is quite bizarre.