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Great development -- people have a prima facie right to travel (and live and work!) where they please [0]. Meanwhile, the EU is going in the opposite direction

Great development -- people have a prima facie right to travel (and live and work!) where they please [0]. Meanwhile, the EU is going in the opposite direction [1] [0]https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil215/Huemer3.pdf https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil215/Huemer3.pdf [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37984102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37984102

troupo 3y ago
Europe is imposing the same "restrictions" on Americans that America has on Europeans: register online. Internally the travel remains the same: visa-free, border-free
- AdamN 3y ago
  They're implementing it for 59 countries, not just the USA.
- signatoremo 3y ago
  > Europe is imposing the same "restrictions" on Americans that America has on Europeans: register online. It will be for more than just US citizens though. Also, the US’s restrictions have been in place for a long time. Why did EU decide to roll it out at this time? What are the benefits? If they wanted to show they are big boys they wouldn’t need to wait all this time.
  - toyg 3y ago
    It's a steady source of income. Keeping up the ESTA website doesn't cost $20 per user, and it lowers tracking costs for border agencies across all states. As of why now: iirc, it was introduced in the context of trade bickering under Trump.
yakubin 3y ago
This is for countries not in EU. And even then there is a long list of exceptions. Internally, nothing is changing.
lm28469 3y ago
> people have a prima facie right to travel (and live and work!) where they please ... The claim that an action is a prima facie rights violation, then, is not a very strong claim ... > the EU is going in the opposite direction Well look at crime statistics wherever immigration was made easier. For example in Paris metro 90%+ of thefts and 60%+ of sexual aggressions were committed by foreigners: https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/en-ile-de-france-93-des-vols-et-63-des-agressions-sexuelles-dans-les-transports-sont-le-fait-detrangers https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/en-ile-de-france-93... Immigration only works for people who can and want to integrate, when people cannot and don't want to integrate the situation quickly becomes infernal for everyone involved
- Scoundreller 3y ago
  The problem with these numbers in France is that you can be born in France but you’re not automatically a citizen depending on who you were born to. Those would have to undertake a process later in life to acquire French citizenship (not sure if just bureaucratic or monetary costs involved too). Many may not bother acquiring French citizenship if they’re already EU citizens, married to one, or if acquiring another citizenship creates a problem in their other country. Would have been more useful if they dug into birthplace and immigration status. France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French. No country in the world is free from that though... I don't go out and blame the Islamic Empire so leave Europe alone, ex colonies have been free for the greater part of a century and are still as bad as they were 200 years ago, if not worse for a lot of them, perpetuating archaic political systems as rotten as ever, some of them even sinking in even worse. Either way it doesn't make it legal for 6th generation descendants of these countries to rape and steal, especially not after being welcomed as refugees. The vast majority of people integrate well enough we don't have to excuse the ones who don't. People from certain ex colonies have virtually no integration issues and are the cause of no criminality. People who want to integrate suffer from these issues even more than others so we're doing them no service by rationalising these actions https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...

troupo 3y ago

Europe is imposing the same "restrictions" on Americans that America has on Europeans: register online. Internally the travel remains the same: visa-free, border-free

AdamN 3y ago
They're implementing it for 59 countries, not just the USA.
signatoremo 3y ago
> Europe is imposing the same "restrictions" on Americans that America has on Europeans: register online. It will be for more than just US citizens though. Also, the US’s restrictions have been in place for a long time. Why did EU decide to roll it out at this time? What are the benefits? If they wanted to show they are big boys they wouldn’t need to wait all this time.
- toyg 3y ago
  It's a steady source of income. Keeping up the ESTA website doesn't cost $20 per user, and it lowers tracking costs for border agencies across all states. As of why now: iirc, it was introduced in the context of trade bickering under Trump.

yakubin 3y ago

This is for countries not in EU. And even then there is a long list of exceptions. Internally, nothing is changing.

lm28469 3y ago

> people have a prima facie right to travel (and live and work!) where they please ... The claim that an action is a prima facie rights violation, then, is not a very strong claim ... > the EU is going in the opposite direction Well look at crime statistics wherever immigration was made easier. For example in Paris metro 90%+ of thefts and 60%+ of sexual aggressions were committed by foreigners: https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/en-ile-de-france-93-des-vols-et-63-des-agressions-sexuelles-dans-les-transports-sont-le-fait-detrangers https://www.valeursactuelles.com/societe/en-ile-de-france-93... Immigration only works for people who can and want to integrate, when people cannot and don't want to integrate the situation quickly becomes infernal for everyone involved

Scoundreller 3y ago
The problem with these numbers in France is that you can be born in France but you’re not automatically a citizen depending on who you were born to. Those would have to undertake a process later in life to acquire French citizenship (not sure if just bureaucratic or monetary costs involved too). Many may not bother acquiring French citizenship if they’re already EU citizens, married to one, or if acquiring another citizenship creates a problem in their other country. Would have been more useful if they dug into birthplace and immigration status. France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > France created a lot of this problem itself by thinking it was their right to just show up in foreign territories and telling everyone to learn French. No country in the world is free from that though... I don't go out and blame the Islamic Empire so leave Europe alone, ex colonies have been free for the greater part of a century and are still as bad as they were 200 years ago, if not worse for a lot of them, perpetuating archaic political systems as rotten as ever, some of them even sinking in even worse. Either way it doesn't make it legal for 6th generation descendants of these countries to rape and steal, especially not after being welcomed as refugees. The vast majority of people integrate well enough we don't have to excuse the ones who don't. People from certain ex colonies have virtually no integration issues and are the cause of no criminality. People who want to integrate suffer from these issues even more than others so we're doing them no service by rationalising these actions https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=5763633 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/5763585?sommaire=576363...