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If you're a slow metabolizer of caffeine like I am, stay away from caffeine. CYP1A2 https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes-cyp1a2/ https://www.gen

• lpa22 3y ago
  It took me far too long to realize caffeine was the cause of my restless sleep issues. Even just 80mg at 10am. I thought it was stress. There’s definitely millions of other people that don’t realize caffeine is killing them slowly due to lack of good sleep, and just continue the cycle.
• dharma1 3y ago
  same here - I can still feel the effects of a cup of coffee at midnight that I drank at 10am
• 2devnull 3y ago
  For some people, the effects of caffeine seem to be permanent. I am one.
  • mattgreenrocks 3y ago
    Can you expand on this?
    • 2devnull 3y ago
      Not a lot.
      • shrimp_emoji 3y ago
        The alertness and anxiety just stacks with every cup and never wears off. The next day, it's even higher with that day's caffeine. The next day, moreso. Eventually, you reach, and then surpass, supernatural levels of mental overdrive, like cheesing INT in Morrowind, and you never come back down. With every sip, you know nothing will ever be the same.
        • tigen 3y ago
          He's just referring to the sleep part. He hasn't slept since 2004.
        • 2devnull 3y ago
          Sort of, but not exactly. More like quitting it doesn’t change me back to prior me. I will just be current me but without the addiction. I’ll still long for her just the same. Once you start drinking it black, you never go back.
• dmd 3y ago
  > small 20mg And if you're someone like me - beware that 'decaf' really isn't. Even as little as *5 mg* of caffeine causes me everything from sleeplessness to migraines (verified with a double blind study administered by my wife!)
  • olalonde 3y ago
    Nitpick: assuming your wife knew which sample was decaf and which was regular coffee, it would be a single-blind experiment.
    • dmd 3y ago
      Correct, which is why I said it was double-blind.
      • matsz 3y ago
        Could you describe the steps you took to perform this experiment? I'm curious and would love to do that myself.
        • dmd 3y ago
          It's definitely easier with a 3rd party, but here's what we did. Note that before this experiment I hadn't had any caffeine at all for several years because I was pretty sure it affected me badly. (1) Experimenter dissolved measured weight caffeine powder in water, and divided it into various measured portions, and labeled them with unique numbers. Then made identical measured portions of pure water, also labeled. She sealed the number assignments in an envelope. (2) On experiment days, I chose a water portion, recording the day and number in secret - she could not see which portion I chose or what number it was. I then poured the water into whatever (zero caffeine!) drink (or whatever else I could mix it in with) I was having. I used drinks and food with strong enough flavors that I definitely could not taste the possible caffeine addition. So now neither of us knows whether I took one of the caffeine ones. (3) I recorded the day's results.
  • LeafItAlone 3y ago
• yangikan 3y ago
  Is there a place where I can get a whole genome sequencing and where they don't sell my data?
  • conradev 3y ago
    I used Dante Labs and asked them to delete my data under the GDPR after downloading it They give you all the data – raw reads and a whole aligned genome for a fairly reasonable price
  • aantix 3y ago
    Nebula Genomics has a pretty good privacy policy. https://nebula.org/ownership-of-your-genetic-data/ https://nebula.org/ownership-of-your-genetic-data/
  • astrange 3y ago
    Selling data is the credit card and ad tech industry, not genetics. Your 23AndMe data has approximately no value unless you take the research surveys, since there's nothing to associate it with.
    • m463 3y ago
      why do people say stuff like this? for example, they sell it to GlaxoSmithKline not to mention the recent data breach
      • astrange 3y ago
        They don't because it isn't worth anything. You are misunderstanding what happens.
• conradev 3y ago
  I also hate that I have to choose. I purchased 10mg caffeine gummies and was optimistic, but, like you, even if I have two at 7am I feel the effects at 11pm when trying to sleep. I wish I could alter the amount or intake mechanism and be fine, but it’s fundamentally what happens once it’s in my bloodstream.
• pastor_bob 3y ago
  >My bladder nearly feels like it's going to burst, because I've slept so long. I don't think having to pee has anything to do with the type of sleep you get. I've heard, if anything, it's a symptom of sleep apnea.
• Afforess 3y ago
  I'm an A/C, neither AA nor CC. Not a lot out there on that, some say "slow" is dominant, but that leaves me confused because I have none of the problems you've described and I drink 200-400mg of caffeine a day (monster energy + 3x 12oz soda).
  • _yb2s 3y ago
    A/C is still considered a slow metabolizer. This is just one allele that affects caffeine metabolism... there is still probably a ton of variability from person to person within the same allele here. I am A/C and have all of the problems described here.
• kieranmaine 3y ago
  Apologies for the lazy comment (I know I could do the research, but I'm busy atm). I 100% agree this is an affect of caffeine, but I'm also interested in what research on the following shows: 1. How does caffeine compare to other factors (stress, exercise, diet) in affecting sleep? 2. Does caffeine have a placebo affect on sleep quality? I ask these questions, as I've found that caffeine does affect my sleep quality, but at the same time stress levels are probably a better predictor of how well I sleep.
• amelius 3y ago
  Any way to boost CYP1A2 or any other gene involved in coffee metabolism?
  • aantix 3y ago
    Nothing that I have found. Eating cruciferous vegetables, sleep, nothing has seemed to help much. I tried taking BroccoMax for its Sulforaphane content. As suggested in the article below. Even when taking BroccoMax, ingesting a cup of coffee, my sleep still suffered. Fast Caffeine Metabolism for Better Sleep with Sulforaphane https://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/fast-caffeine-metabolism-for-better-sleep-with-sulforaphane-15-2/ https://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/fast-caffeine-me...
  • TedDoesntTalk 3y ago
    The linked article mentions cruciferous vegetables
• hombre_fatal 3y ago
  I don't know how people put up with waking up to pee. Is it really worth it to eat/drink within a few hours of bedtime if it's going to wake you up at 3am?
  • radlad 3y ago
    On the flip side, I typically drink 16-32 oz of water before sleeping and never wake up needing to pee.
  • ryandetzel 3y ago
    If I drink past 2pm I'm up...weird but only started after I was 40 really. I'm starting to think my sleep just sucks so my mind is more aware that I have to go and not that something has changed with my bladder
    • LeafItAlone 3y ago
      I believe that may be an indicator of an enlarged prostate, if you have one.
  • RoyalHenOil 3y ago
    It's a circadian rhythm thing. You get into a habit of peeing at specific times, and that can include in the middle of the night. You can fix the habit by waiting a half hour longer to pee each night until you can make it to the morning, but this does involve lying awake in bed for a while, which is much worse for your sleep than just getting up quickly to pee.
    • Noumenon72 3y ago
      I've fixed this a few times in my life by just going to bed thirsty until I break the nightly habit.
• rcconf 3y ago
  I have the same issue, it's truly unfortunate. What's odd is I forget about what caffeine does to my sleep and after a few weeks/months of drinking it, I'm wondering why I'm so stressed, tired and can't get ANY sleep. I stop drinking coffee and BAM, I sleep like a baby. It doesn't MATTER when I drink it, I can drink it at 6AM and I will not have a good deep sleep. I am unsure if this is coincidence, but I also notice I remember way less dreams when I am on caffeine than not. I also find it's a compounding effect which is why it's slightly annoying. If I drink 1 cup, in 2 weeks, my sleep will be fine so I will think, okay, it's not the caffeine. Then I will continue drinking it for weeks and suddenly I haven't had a good nights rest in weeks and I'm wondering what is going on. Not having deep sleep for weeks really has a big impact on your stress levels, memory, emotional well being and general energy levels. The annoying part is coffee is so good for productivity so I go through cycles (also you start to think it's the stress not the caffeine that's causing the sleep issue!) Weeks of stressful work - drink more caffeine to get all the work done - bad sleep, bad mood, bad energy levels, aka all the negative affects from not having enough deep sleep. Weeks of less stressful work, no caffeine, great sleep, great mood/energy levels, etc. I've always convinced myself that not drinking caffeine for deep sleep is just placebo, but I've tested it so many times that it just can't be. Is there a way to test if you're a slower metabolizer? I know my partner can drink 3 cups and she is totally fine, lucky her! I'm 100% convinced I am, but it would be cool to test by some sort of blood/urine test?
  • aantix 3y ago
    You'll have to do a genetic test. Nebula, 23andme, etc. Then look at CYP1A2, see if you have the C/C genotype. Definitely read the Genetic Life Hacks article that I linked to above.
    • grvdrm 3y ago
      So if C/C then slow metabolizer?
      • aantix 3y ago
        Correct. C/C is the genotype. Marker rs762551, as another poster noted above. For 23andme customers: https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551 https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551
• LeafItAlone 3y ago
  Yours and all of the child comments are fascinating to me. I can drink a cup of coffee right before bed and it doesn’t seem to affect my sleep noticeably (e.g. I feel just as refreshed the next day as when I don’t). I have even tried to give it up multiple times and have lasted well over a month before deciding that I was still more tired (and irritable) than when summoning it.
• skottenborg 3y ago
  It's very interesting how different reactions to caffeine are. I can take a 200 mg caffeine pill 5 hours before sleep and have no trouble sleeping. My Samsung smartwatch doesn't indicate any loss of deep sleep either (1-2 hours usually). I do have a high tolerance though, but I don't weight much either.
• baby 3y ago
  It's interesting because this was me. I couldn't drink coffee, even in the morning, without getting pretty strong jitters AND not being able to sleep at night. I didn't know it could be because of slow metabolizing. But I've been forcing myself to drink coffee for some of its benefits (heart and focus) and now I can drink coffee at 3pm, no jitters, no effect to sleep. I'm actually wondering if I sleep better by drinking coffee because I'm more active during the day and much more tired when I hit the bed now.
• illegalsmile 3y ago
  Interesting, I've been working on my sleep and read this from the article you posted: Curcumin is an inhibitor of CYP1A2. I sleep really well with a 200-400mg of Ibuprofen but it's not something I want to take often or at all for sleep. Curcumin/turmeric is also anti-inflammatory. I'm starting to think that cutting out all caffeine (cup of black tea in the morning) and taking some curcumin might be the way to better sleep.
  • Reason077 3y ago
    Definitely be careful with Ibuprofen. Real risk of messing up your stomach if you take it too regularly.
• aantix 3y ago
  For those with impacted sleep due to caffeine - Have you found any supplements or alternatives that increase focus but did not impact your sleep quality? Sadly, I have no alternative recommendations. Everything that claims to increase "focus", also appears to impact my sleep.
  • manifoldgeo 3y ago
    If you have ADD or ADHD, Ritalin might help. I have severe ADHD that I refused to treat for decades, but I recently gave in. I am _hugely_ sensitive to caffeine and feel a buzz even from decaf. It ruins my sleep in a similar way to what a couple people in this thread describe. I take 10mg of instant-release Ritalin at 7AM each day, and it allows me to focus and deliver. It wears off by around 2-3PM, and I sleep like a rock most nights. There are downsides as well: once it wears off, it leaves you mentally drained until you've slept. Also, there's a potential for building a tolerance, as well as potential for addiction. I've been lucky in both cases so far, but ymmv.
  • crucialfelix 3y ago
    Creatine, phenylpiracetam, tyrosine, 7 minute workout.
  • krrrh 3y ago
    Low dose nicotine gum does help, but it’s pretty habit forming. I’m not convinced it’s worse than taking daily ADHD medication or caffeine though. Aerobic exercise (preferably outdoors) is the one thing that works with mostly positive side effects.
    • Rewrap3643 3y ago
      The metabolite of nicotine has a long half-life and probably degrades sleep quality. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9443078/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9443078/
  • asicsarecool 3y ago
    L-theanine Seriously. I panic if I run out
• bilsbie 3y ago
  How long have you been off of caffiene? I’d think in the first few months of quitting you’d be overtired from withdraw and might sleep better.
• grvdrm 3y ago
  Did you ever experiment with tea? Your message is clear on caffeine overall but I am curious if you tried tea in the process of figuring this out.
• _yb2s 3y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out! I'm a slow caffeine metabolizer also, and it took a long time to notice what is happening in my body, and not listen to other people that say things like "just stop drinking coffee before 5pm" or "limit to 4 cups a day" that totally don't work for me.
• aantix 3y ago
  This was also a good lesson that if I continued to listen to the pop science, the general consensus was that coffee was a net positive. And that was my stance for a long time. I didn't realize that there could be such a distinction in one's reaction to caffeine intake. "The genetics of caffeine sensitivity also have implications for cardiovascular health. In a 2006 study of more than 4,000 people, researchers found that for slow metabolizers, consuming more cups of coffee per day was associated with an increased risk of a heart attack. Fast metabolizers had no such increased risks."
  • eslaught 3y ago
    How do you know what kind you are? I have zero response to caffeine up to a certain point, and then past that I get shaky and anxious. One cup of tea, no response. Two is too much. Coffee is often on the edge. But no effect on alertness no matter how much or little I take.
    • aantix 3y ago
      You'll have to do a genetic test like Nebula, 23andme, etc. Then look at CYP1A2, marker rs762551, to see if you have the C/C genotype. If you have a 23andme account: https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551 https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs762551
      • protomolecule 3y ago
        Or not. https://www.reuters.com/technology/hackers-advertise-sale-23andme-data-leaked-data-forum-2023-10-06/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/hackers-advertise-sale-23...
  • cco 3y ago
    Similarly, it was wild for me to learn recently that the standard deviation for how many calories our body utilizes for a given calorie intake was WAY bigger than I thought. Everyone intuitively knows that if 100 people each consume 100 calories, there will be some variation in how much of those 100 calories is "used" by each individual. But I had no idea the distribution is on the scale of 330%! Meaning in this example, some people would only get 30 usable calories, and some would get the full 100! That was way larger of a spread than I thought.
• endorphine 3y ago
  Have you tried limiting it to 1 coffee per week? Wondering how that would play out
• krrrh 3y ago
  For anyone reading this and wanting to get off caffeine, but finding it difficult because of withdrawal symptoms like headaches, here’s a trick that makes it easier. If you’re drinking a morning coffee you’ll be getting 100-200mg of caffeine. But even a small amount of caffeine will take almost all the edge off withdrawal and prevent headaches. A 75g dark chocolate bar at 70% will give you 20-25mg of caffeine. Costco sells boxes of Lindt chocolate bars that meet this criteria. Eat one in the morning instead of coffee (the sugar and theobromine seems to help as well). Once you’ve done this for a week it’s easy to just stop because most people won’t get withdrawal symptoms from 20mg.
  • w4ffl35 3y ago
    Cold turkey. I do it all the time. Not hard but yes I get a headache. I don't understand people who have to ease their way off a substance.
    • cseleborg 3y ago
      There was a joke like that, it went something like: "Quitting smoking is so easy, I've done it so many times already!"
      • w4ffl35 3y ago
        Joke works if the plan is to quit permanently. I like my substances, but its still good to take breaks.
  • taude 3y ago
    I typically weigh my coffee, either for making espresso (20g) or for pourovers (25g). Last time I quit, went like this: a) move from two espressos -> one espresso for a few days. Once steady on a single 20g espresso... b) move from 20g espresso to 20g pouroer. c) each day take a few grams off the pour over. The last time I made one I used 5 mg beans, and then quit pretty easily the next day. This taper method made it totally doable for me, no headaches. The hardest part was going from 2 espressos to 1, mostly because of the habit. I substituted in herbal tea for my second cup....
• elzbardico 3y ago
  Actually I envy you. I can drink one expresso or two one hour before sleep and will sleep the same. It is kind of annoying because sometimes I wanted to pull an all-nighter and coffee doesn't have the effect in me that I wanted and I end up sleeping anyway.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• Octabrain 3y ago
  You know, I've been saying something similar to what you wrote for a long time: if I have a coffee at 7am I struggle to sleep and everyone around me has been always looking at me like I'm crazy. It's a relief to know that there are more people having the same issue. It's a shame, because I do love the taste of coffee but I cannot cope with this specific side effect.
• ekms 3y ago
  I find being in caffeine withdrawal definitely makes falling sleep easier. But in steady state being on or off caffeine seems to be about the same? It's hard to say though! Sleep onset is one of those things that's very strongly affected by placebo/nocebo effects (i.e. the person in this thread who says drinking caffeine /permanently/ worsened his sleep even after discontinuation .. ) For those of you in this thread who know you're slow metabolizers... is the effect on sleep obvious in a way that's distinguishable from nocebo? Or is it pretty subtle?
• lttlrck 3y ago
  I had no idea it could be metabolized so slowly... thanks!
• tiffanyg 3y ago
  You make it sound dark-side / light-side. Might I interest you in a pleasing shade of gray? Hemodialysis. Join the 'penumbra-side'. More seriously, sorry you have that issue. Unfortunately, I can't think of anything useful I'm familiar with. You could look into 'inducers'. Wikipedia has a small list. At least, though, it's good to know about the trade-offs - knowing that caffeine specifically comes at that kind of cost. Some suffer for years before determining what the actual root cause of some difficulty has been. With awareness, at least there is the possibility of volition / decision.
  • aantix 3y ago
    I find this interesting.. So the idea would be do consume caffeine in the morning, then perform hemodialysis in the evening to rid your blood stream of the circulating effects?
• aantix 3y ago
  https://www.mygenefood.com/blog/why-coffee-is-bad-for-me-but-might-be-good-for-you/#:~:text=plan%20product.-,Coffee%20half%20life%20and%20sleep%20duration,-Think%20of%20this https://www.mygenefood.com/blog/why-coffee-is-bad-for-me-but... "Because it’s not just the half life, caffeine has a quarter life, meaning it’s still has its hooks in my patient long after that morning sip. According to sleep scientist Matthew Walker, author of Why We Sleep, caffeine’s quarter life is about double its half life. This means that slow metabolizers like my patient may still be feeling the effects of their morning coffee well into the night. No wonder caffeine has been shown to be so disruptive of sleep. 4 After all, it binds to and blocks our adenosine receptors, the signaling pathways the body uses to fall asleep each night."
  • thisismyswamp 3y ago
    > caffeine’s quarter life is about double its half life 1/2 = 2 * 1/4 Isn't that by definition?
    • Handprint4469 3y ago
      The error in your reasoning is that you're replacing "quarter life" and "half life" with "1/4" and "1/2" (scalars), when the definition is actually about the number of hours the caffeine stays in your system. You are also putting the (2 *) on the wrong side. It should instead be: half_life_hrs * 2 = quarter_life_hrs Think of it this way: if caffeine's half life is 6 hours, and you drink 100mg, it means that after 6 hours you still have 50mg in your system. Given that, you could try to extrapolate and say that after another 6 hours, you would have 0mg left in your system. However, since "caffeine's quarter life is about double its half life", that means that: 6hrs * 2 = quarter_life_hrs Therefore, after 12 hours (6hrs * 2), you would still have 25mg (a quarter of 100mg) of caffeine in your system.
• erichocean 3y ago
  > I hate that I have to choose. FWIW There are sleep aids a doctor can prescribe that will put you into a deep sleep. Would be worth trying to see if you can get the best of both worlds.
• blueagle7 3y ago
  Hey man, I’m in the same boat and i’ve had to eliminate caffeine. As a replacement, I do Yoga(Sun Salutations) for either 4 or 12 minutes depending on how my body feels in the morning (or if i need energy in the afternoon). It provides much cleaner energy than caffeine: no crash. Just thought i’d share :D
• smsm42 3y ago
  Interesting! I am the exact opposite - I can drink coffee any time, and it doesn't affect my sleep at all. The reverse side of it it that it doesn't wake me up at all either. If I'm sleepy, giving me a cup of coffee is useless. I like the taste of it, but if I want to boost my alertness, I will need something else. I used to drink a lot of caffeinated drinks in my youth, so maybe I developed a tolerance - or maybe it's just my genes.