9 ms·

Return To Office is all about power

55 points by benwerd 3y ago

willio58 3y ago
In my experience, it's been a combination of the ineptitude of some and a desire of the higher-ups to justify the money spent in procuring and creating the "office". There are some that function better at work in person. I thought I was that person for a while but now I'm two years into a fully remote job and I don't know if I'd ever want to go back. The freedom to balance life and work as I so choose throughout a day is just, well it's honestly crazy and I feel super lucky to live in a time where this is possible. I've left this note on HN before but I think the reason my team and company finds success being remote is related to these: 1. We are a mostly-remote company. The sales team is in-person at HQ for some reason. Everyone else is remote and spread around the US. 2. My team has daily standup zoom meetings that, once finished, turn into a completely optional "party" room where you can ask questions, answer questions, jump into break-out rooms to code together on something, etc. Or you can just peace out and work solo and nobody will judge you.
petsormeat 3y ago
Of course it's the CxOs who tout their companies' onsite "culture"--they're not the ones crammed into open-plan, surveilled work stations, discouraged from leaving for non-work appointments, and subjected to mandatory social events. Given even the relatively modest perks of the last onsite C-suite I worked with, hell, I'd be in the office too.
- aetherson 3y ago
  I am not and have never been an exec, never had my own private office, have worked either in open-plan offices or from home for the last 15 years. I much prefer working in-office to from home.
  - hypeit 3y ago
    You prefer open-plan offices to wfh? Would you elaborate because I can't imagine that being the case for most people.
    - justin_oaks 3y ago
      I can imagine people who like open-plan offices instead of WFH. It may be commentary on how poor their home environment is for work. It may be that they're extroverts. And it could be that their work involves collaboration more than focus time. Or maybe they enjoy slacking off at the office and chatting with their coworkers, but it FEELS like they're working because they're at the office. There are lots of possibilities.
    - MatthiasPortzel 3y ago
      As someone in my early twenties, I don’t live with my family and don’t own a house. The assumption made by a lot of work from home proponents is that all workers have a great home office space, which just isn’t the reality. I do have a desk in my bedroom, and I can take my laptop to a library, so I can work remotely. But I when job hunting I definitely prefer companies that have created quality in-office space. You made a comment elsewhere that working remotely gives you access to a bigger talent pool. While this is a big advantage, people who prefer in-person work do exist.
      - aetherson 3y ago
        I have a very reasonable home office space in a pretty nice house. But it's still being in one house like literally all the time, and being in one room of that house almost all the time, and being alone all the time, and that's not actually fun.
    - aetherson 3y ago
      Working from home is isolating and boring. Open-plan offices are completely fine for me, I don't have a hard time focusing in them, and enjoy the long sight-lines/windows, and opportunities to talk to coworkers more organically.
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Its not all about power. This might come as a shock, but not all bosses are evil and not all companies try to extract every single drop from employees. I for example have put in a lot of hard work in building an office space in a location where it is easy for folks to commute, invested in experts who came in and designed a space which is great for creativity, inspiration and focus. There are lots of snacks and coffee to keep people boosted. And I did all this to make the office a genuinely nice place for people to do good work and trust me, there are people who like doing good work. It makes them feel useful and a productive member of society. This same environment is really hard to replicate at home where there might be less space, kids, dogs etc. So this sort of antagonistic attitude towards any return to office is really bad because it makes the world feel threatening and desolate. Not everything is so bad and evil.
- spamizbad 3y ago
  Is yours by chance an open plan office? Because the peer-reviewed research overwhelmingly indicates it does not inculcate creativity, inspiration or focus.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
    It is not an open plan. There are a lot more strategic choices you can make with plants, walls and sunlight to make it more interesting. You would have to hire experts though. And yes a pure open plan is terrible. I knew it when I first set foot in one.
    - harimau777 3y ago
      Are you saying that developers have individual offices?
      - floren 3y ago
        Whoa now, whoa now, that would be bad for collaboration. They've done interesting things with plants, walls, and sunlight. He has his own office, of course.
qudat 3y ago
I don’t buy the research cited in this article at all. Defining productivity based on employee Q&A seems very error prone, especially when asking them to recollect what they did a week ago. Further, at least anecdotally, there are a ton of synchronizing benefits to being in the same physical space with your colleagues. If anything I don’t think return to office is about power, rather it is about control. The ability to have impromptu meetings where everyone is placed inside a room controls employee focus. Further, there is etiquette to being in a meeting. No computers, no phones, no distractions. It is so easy for people to get distracted in video meetings because their work is right next to them.
andrewmutz 3y ago
The working environment will be determined by market forces. If you don't want to RTO, go work for the many, many companies that allow remote work. Yes, it might mean a pay cut or working on problems that aren't your favorite. Until people actually change jobs over RTO policies in large numbers, companies will continue to transition to working back in the office. And why wouldn't they? After all, if employees are unwilling to take a job with lower pay or less exciting problems over this, how much do they really care about it?
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > Until people actually change jobs over RTO policies in large numbers There have been plenty of people measuring this. Some on even business-frienly publications. Those make the frontpage here every once in a while. People change jobs in mass over RTO, and it has had a large impact on the companies that did it. (And yet, there has been too little time for real problems to appear because of RTO. Give it another year. People don't even switch jobs that fast. Up to now we only have some non-critical problems.)
superfrank 3y ago
I actually agree with so much of what this article says, but I come to a slightly different conclusion. I don't think it's about power, I think it's about effort and risk. In a remote culture that works employees need different things than they do at an in person culture. Most executives know what works in an in person culture because they've been doing it for years or decades (clarification: "what works" doesn't mean everyone loves their job, just that work is getting done and the business is making money). Switching to a remote culture requires them to learn new things, take risks, make mistakes, and possibly fail. Doing all those things takes time, effort, and money. On top of that, there really hasn't been anything that definitively says how much more productive (if any) employees are in a remote culture. I'm know there are a few small case studies, but there doesn't seem to be any industry wide consensus yet and it's easy to look at those and say "this doesn't translate to how we work". Everyone has someone they answer to and it's hard to make the case that a company should step in to the unknown which may cost a company millions of dollars when they have a tried and true alternative (in office work). I'm absolutely certain remote work can work at scale, but I think there's a catch 22 at these large companies. For remote work to work, it requires buy in and commitment from leadership, but no one wants to champion that at large companies because they don't have proof that it can work. I think you've got to look at remote work similar to the way the electric car has caught on. No big incumbent is going to lead the charge on this. Even the ones that are willing to try remote work long term will do it half-heartedly. It will only be once a smaller company adopts it fully and manages to grow into a large player will the tides really start to change. Once executives can point to another company of similar size and see tangible benefits that they're missing out on will they really lean in to the idea of remote work.
TheIronMark 3y ago
It's sad that this is framed as a zero-sum game. At my current role, the expectation is three days a week in the office, but no one freaks out if you end up working remotely for a week.
lulznews 3y ago
I’d say 1) power 2) stealth layoffs 3) herd following. For the megas it’s 1 and 2. Most small companies are just clueless and following others though.
hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
One of the key quotes: > Americans overwhelmingly responded with, “Yes! And also retrofit offices to have better ventilation.” Europeans, meanwhile, overwhelmingly responded with, “This would actually be an erosion of my rights; aim higher.” — a good reminder that the working conditions Americans are used to are not the norm virtually anywhere else in the world.
nunez 3y ago
It's really not. There isn't a replacement for person to person interaction, WFH doesn't work for everyone (see also: anyone with a family in a vhcol city in a tiny apartment), and there is a very real worry that WFH makes it that much easier for investors who already barely understand what we do to push for more aggressive outsourcing. (On that last point. I am honestly surprised by how hostile many people on here are about RTO. It is so obvious to me that the more we push for this outcome, the more aggressive employers will become about hiring in cheaper labor pools and driving down average comp. This isn't an issue if you've got 15 yoe and $500k in the bank thanks to years of excellent comp, but this completely locks out juniors and career changers.) Do you need it every day? No. But is it reasonable to ask folks to congregate and collaborate in the flesh so often? I think so.
JBlue42 3y ago
My office is far nicer and more comfortable to work in than my studio apartment which may have a) loud neighbors b) leaf blowers going as well as other things out of my control. We are asked to do 3 in office, 2 at home, which seems to be the new standard in industries where 5 days/week in office was the norm. The only issues I have those three days that make it annoying are people that are taking calls at their desk or otherwise distracting and that the company will bug my manager, who will bug me about the data on my being in office being correct. There are multiple ways to track my whereabouts so it's a little annoying to have to explain their faulty systems or data.

55 points by benwerd 3y ago

In my experience, it's been a combination of the ineptitude of some and a desire of the higher-ups to justify the money spent in procuring and creating the "office". There are some that function better at work in person. I thought I was that person for a while but now I'm two years into a fully remote job and I don't know if I'd ever want to go back. The freedom to balance life and work as I so choose throughout a day is just, well it's honestly crazy and I feel super lucky to live in a time where this is possible. I've left this note on HN before but I think the reason my team and company finds success being remote is related to these: 1. We are a mostly-remote company. The sales team is in-person at HQ for some reason. Everyone else is remote and spread around the US. 2. My team has daily standup zoom meetings that, once finished, turn into a completely optional "party" room where you can ask questions, answer questions, jump into break-out rooms to code together on something, etc. Or you can just peace out and work solo and nobody will judge you.

petsormeat 3y ago

Of course it's the CxOs who tout their companies' onsite "culture"--they're not the ones crammed into open-plan, surveilled work stations, discouraged from leaving for non-work appointments, and subjected to mandatory social events. Given even the relatively modest perks of the last onsite C-suite I worked with, hell, I'd be in the office too.

aetherson 3y ago
I am not and have never been an exec, never had my own private office, have worked either in open-plan offices or from home for the last 15 years. I much prefer working in-office to from home.
- hypeit 3y ago
  You prefer open-plan offices to wfh? Would you elaborate because I can't imagine that being the case for most people.
  - justin_oaks 3y ago
    I can imagine people who like open-plan offices instead of WFH. It may be commentary on how poor their home environment is for work. It may be that they're extroverts. And it could be that their work involves collaboration more than focus time. Or maybe they enjoy slacking off at the office and chatting with their coworkers, but it FEELS like they're working because they're at the office. There are lots of possibilities.
  - MatthiasPortzel 3y ago
    As someone in my early twenties, I don’t live with my family and don’t own a house. The assumption made by a lot of work from home proponents is that all workers have a great home office space, which just isn’t the reality. I do have a desk in my bedroom, and I can take my laptop to a library, so I can work remotely. But I when job hunting I definitely prefer companies that have created quality in-office space. You made a comment elsewhere that working remotely gives you access to a bigger talent pool. While this is a big advantage, people who prefer in-person work do exist.
    - aetherson 3y ago
      I have a very reasonable home office space in a pretty nice house. But it's still being in one house like literally all the time, and being in one room of that house almost all the time, and being alone all the time, and that's not actually fun.
  - aetherson 3y ago
    Working from home is isolating and boring. Open-plan offices are completely fine for me, I don't have a hard time focusing in them, and enjoy the long sight-lines/windows, and opportunities to talk to coworkers more organically.

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Its not all about power. This might come as a shock, but not all bosses are evil and not all companies try to extract every single drop from employees. I for example have put in a lot of hard work in building an office space in a location where it is easy for folks to commute, invested in experts who came in and designed a space which is great for creativity, inspiration and focus. There are lots of snacks and coffee to keep people boosted. And I did all this to make the office a genuinely nice place for people to do good work and trust me, there are people who like doing good work. It makes them feel useful and a productive member of society. This same environment is really hard to replicate at home where there might be less space, kids, dogs etc. So this sort of antagonistic attitude towards any return to office is really bad because it makes the world feel threatening and desolate. Not everything is so bad and evil.

spamizbad 3y ago
Is yours by chance an open plan office? Because the peer-reviewed research overwhelmingly indicates it does not inculcate creativity, inspiration or focus.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
  It is not an open plan. There are a lot more strategic choices you can make with plants, walls and sunlight to make it more interesting. You would have to hire experts though. And yes a pure open plan is terrible. I knew it when I first set foot in one.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    Are you saying that developers have individual offices?
    - floren 3y ago
      Whoa now, whoa now, that would be bad for collaboration. They've done interesting things with plants, walls, and sunlight. He has his own office, of course.

qudat 3y ago

I don’t buy the research cited in this article at all. Defining productivity based on employee Q&A seems very error prone, especially when asking them to recollect what they did a week ago. Further, at least anecdotally, there are a ton of synchronizing benefits to being in the same physical space with your colleagues. If anything I don’t think return to office is about power, rather it is about control. The ability to have impromptu meetings where everyone is placed inside a room controls employee focus. Further, there is etiquette to being in a meeting. No computers, no phones, no distractions. It is so easy for people to get distracted in video meetings because their work is right next to them.

andrewmutz 3y ago

The working environment will be determined by market forces. If you don't want to RTO, go work for the many, many companies that allow remote work. Yes, it might mean a pay cut or working on problems that aren't your favorite. Until people actually change jobs over RTO policies in large numbers, companies will continue to transition to working back in the office. And why wouldn't they? After all, if employees are unwilling to take a job with lower pay or less exciting problems over this, how much do they really care about it?

marcosdumay 3y ago
> Until people actually change jobs over RTO policies in large numbers There have been plenty of people measuring this. Some on even business-frienly publications. Those make the frontpage here every once in a while. People change jobs in mass over RTO, and it has had a large impact on the companies that did it. (And yet, there has been too little time for real problems to appear because of RTO. Give it another year. People don't even switch jobs that fast. Up to now we only have some non-critical problems.)

superfrank 3y ago

I actually agree with so much of what this article says, but I come to a slightly different conclusion. I don't think it's about power, I think it's about effort and risk. In a remote culture that works employees need different things than they do at an in person culture. Most executives know what works in an in person culture because they've been doing it for years or decades (clarification: "what works" doesn't mean everyone loves their job, just that work is getting done and the business is making money). Switching to a remote culture requires them to learn new things, take risks, make mistakes, and possibly fail. Doing all those things takes time, effort, and money. On top of that, there really hasn't been anything that definitively says how much more productive (if any) employees are in a remote culture. I'm know there are a few small case studies, but there doesn't seem to be any industry wide consensus yet and it's easy to look at those and say "this doesn't translate to how we work". Everyone has someone they answer to and it's hard to make the case that a company should step in to the unknown which may cost a company millions of dollars when they have a tried and true alternative (in office work). I'm absolutely certain remote work can work at scale, but I think there's a catch 22 at these large companies. For remote work to work, it requires buy in and commitment from leadership, but no one wants to champion that at large companies because they don't have proof that it can work. I think you've got to look at remote work similar to the way the electric car has caught on. No big incumbent is going to lead the charge on this. Even the ones that are willing to try remote work long term will do it half-heartedly. It will only be once a smaller company adopts it fully and manages to grow into a large player will the tides really start to change. Once executives can point to another company of similar size and see tangible benefits that they're missing out on will they really lean in to the idea of remote work.

TheIronMark 3y ago

It's sad that this is framed as a zero-sum game. At my current role, the expectation is three days a week in the office, but no one freaks out if you end up working remotely for a week.

lulznews 3y ago

I’d say 1) power 2) stealth layoffs 3) herd following. For the megas it’s 1 and 2. Most small companies are just clueless and following others though.

hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago

One of the key quotes: > Americans overwhelmingly responded with, “Yes! And also retrofit offices to have better ventilation.” Europeans, meanwhile, overwhelmingly responded with, “This would actually be an erosion of my rights; aim higher.” — a good reminder that the working conditions Americans are used to are not the norm virtually anywhere else in the world.

nunez 3y ago

It's really not. There isn't a replacement for person to person interaction, WFH doesn't work for everyone (see also: anyone with a family in a vhcol city in a tiny apartment), and there is a very real worry that WFH makes it that much easier for investors who already barely understand what we do to push for more aggressive outsourcing. (On that last point. I am honestly surprised by how hostile many people on here are about RTO. It is so obvious to me that the more we push for this outcome, the more aggressive employers will become about hiring in cheaper labor pools and driving down average comp. This isn't an issue if you've got 15 yoe and $500k in the bank thanks to years of excellent comp, but this completely locks out juniors and career changers.) Do you need it every day? No. But is it reasonable to ask folks to congregate and collaborate in the flesh so often? I think so.

JBlue42 3y ago

My office is far nicer and more comfortable to work in than my studio apartment which may have a) loud neighbors b) leaf blowers going as well as other things out of my control. We are asked to do 3 in office, 2 at home, which seems to be the new standard in industries where 5 days/week in office was the norm. The only issues I have those three days that make it annoying are people that are taking calls at their desk or otherwise distracting and that the company will bug my manager, who will bug me about the data on my being in office being correct. There are multiple ways to track my whereabouts so it's a little annoying to have to explain their faulty systems or data.