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We desperately need to stop thinking of housing in terms of investment at all. Housing is for people to live in. That's it. Any other purpose is a long-distant

We desperately need to stop thinking of housing in terms of investment at all. Housing is for people to live in. That's it. Any other purpose is a long-distant second to that. The fact that it has become primarily an investment product is what's causing all the pain.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Japan got burned by real estate investments in the 80s and now real estate isn't considered an investment, so housing in even Tokyo is affordable. It also helps that housing structures are considered as a deprecating asset, to be rebuilt every 30-40 years.
- solumunus 3y ago
  We must live in a different world. I’ve been reading articles for years about Tokyo house prices being a huge problem, and that young people are depressed and checking out because they see no way to climb the ladder in Tokyo. A quick Google search confirms I’m remembering correctly. Tokyo has the same real estate issues as any major western city.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Ah, the problem with that is that you can’t earn enough money, the housing prices are sane but the salaries for workers is not. But there aren’t really the same codes as the west, so you can rent something for $2-300/month. Kids can get by on low salaries they way, but buying is out of reach even. If the prices are affordable by our standards. You can pull up either narrative in Google by searching specifically for it. Tokyo is cheap, Tokyo is expensive, etc… eg Tokyo housing is cheap: https://medium.com/land-buildings-identity-and-values/what-is-the-secret-to-tokyos-affordable-housing-266283531012 https://medium.com/land-buildings-identity-and-values/what-i... And Tokyo housing is expensive: https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-prices-squeeze-out-young-professionals-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-... They are both true with nuance.
    - charlie0 3y ago
      By definition, if housing prices are unaffordable, then they aren't sane prices.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Japan federalized zoning rules meaning cities can't arbitrarily deny housing. This allows supply and demand to meet, leaving housing approximately at the cost of construction.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    That is true, but you can't discount a lack of speculation, a shrinking population, a culture of structure depreciation, and low wages.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      I agree but speculation is usually on the basis of prices going up. If prices don't go up there's nothing to speculate on. The shrinking population only affects demand - but price is at the nexus of supply and demand. So you can achieve that by dropping demand or raising supply. The argument that demand affects price is an implicit argument that supply does too.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Japan got burned by real estate investments in the 80s and now real estate isn't considered an investment, so housing in even Tokyo is affordable. It also helps that housing structures are considered as a deprecating asset, to be rebuilt every 30-40 years.

solumunus 3y ago
We must live in a different world. I’ve been reading articles for years about Tokyo house prices being a huge problem, and that young people are depressed and checking out because they see no way to climb the ladder in Tokyo. A quick Google search confirms I’m remembering correctly. Tokyo has the same real estate issues as any major western city.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Ah, the problem with that is that you can’t earn enough money, the housing prices are sane but the salaries for workers is not. But there aren’t really the same codes as the west, so you can rent something for $2-300/month. Kids can get by on low salaries they way, but buying is out of reach even. If the prices are affordable by our standards. You can pull up either narrative in Google by searching specifically for it. Tokyo is cheap, Tokyo is expensive, etc… eg Tokyo housing is cheap: https://medium.com/land-buildings-identity-and-values/what-is-the-secret-to-tokyos-affordable-housing-266283531012 https://medium.com/land-buildings-identity-and-values/what-i... And Tokyo housing is expensive: https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-prices-squeeze-out-young-professionals-2023-10-04/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/surging-tokyo-property-... They are both true with nuance.
  - charlie0 3y ago
    By definition, if housing prices are unaffordable, then they aren't sane prices.
arcticbull 3y ago
Japan federalized zoning rules meaning cities can't arbitrarily deny housing. This allows supply and demand to meet, leaving housing approximately at the cost of construction.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  That is true, but you can't discount a lack of speculation, a shrinking population, a culture of structure depreciation, and low wages.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    I agree but speculation is usually on the basis of prices going up. If prices don't go up there's nothing to speculate on. The shrinking population only affects demand - but price is at the nexus of supply and demand. So you can achieve that by dropping demand or raising supply. The argument that demand affects price is an implicit argument that supply does too.