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> Many of natural born citizens I grew up with either aren't aware of this reality or are misinformed about it. The natural born citizens dissatisfied with the

by danans 3y ago

> Many of natural born citizens I grew up with either aren't aware of this reality or are misinformed about it. The natural born citizens dissatisfied with the US are generally not comparing the US to a developing country or a country with an ongoing war on their soil, which is where most immigrants come from. Instead, they are comparing it to other developed countries and focused on specific conditions that matter to them, like housing, transportation, environment, violence, etc. > Yes there are problems in America, but how many of those problems are the result of an apathetic, nihilistic American population and not the foundational systems America is built on? The criticism of these problems is far from apathetic, and it's an important part of how we begin to remedy them. For example, we aren't going to wish away gun violence by ignoring it. The biggest current threat to the US isn't this criticism, but rather the attack on its democratic foundations happening now. However even that is not coming from apathy, though its goals are very nihilistic in the short term and oligarchic and theocratic in the long term.

tonmoy 3y ago
On top of that, when we immigrants also compare against other developed countries, we see how immigrant friendly the US is. The natural born citizens wouldn’t necessarily care about that
- danans 3y ago
  > we see how immigrant friendly the US is. The natural born citizens wouldn’t necessarily care about that To the contrary, plenty do care about it in the sense of being opposed to further immigration from developing countries. "Demographic anxiety" is a term often used to describe this. Also, both natural born citizens of recent immigrant ancestry and those natural born for many generations care because anti-immigrant sentiment is a canary for a broader xenophobic trends. When pressed, almost everyone has an opinion on immigration policy.
andrewmutz 3y ago
> Instead, they are comparing it to other developed countries and focused on specific conditions that matter to them, like housing, transportation, environment, violence, etc. When I hear people complain online about the US, it is very common for them to have a deep understanding of problems in the US, but very superficial understanding of problems in other developed nations. European countries also have lots of problems with housing, healthcare, the environment, racism, the rise of the far right, etc. There are some problems that are uniquely american, like mass shootings. Being an informed citizen isn't just understanding the problems in your country. If you wan't to be a part of positive change, you need to understand what's working and what's not working in other comparable countries as well.
- nradov 3y ago
  Indeed. It's hilarious to see some Americans claiming things are so much better in "Europe" when their entire experience consists of a few weeks as a tourist or business traveler in first-tier EU cities. Try living for a while in the places where outsiders rarely go and then tell me how great it is.
  - throwawaydizjsj 3y ago
    I have done this, its really great for me and my family. Kid goes to public school and most of our friends are locals. Would highly recommend everyone try this for a bit and make their own judgement.
  - danans 3y ago
    > Indeed. It's hilarious to see some Americans claiming things are so much better in "Europe" when their entire experience consists of a few weeks as a tourist or business traveler in first-tier EU cities. Being specific in your comparison matters. It is indeed facile to make the statement that "things are so much better in Europe". Blanket statements are usually stupid. It's reasonable, however, to compare the efficacy of public transit of San Francisco to that of Copenhagen, or to compare the a population-wide health indicators of the US to Germany.
    - andrewmutz 3y ago
      > It's not unreasonable, however, to compare the efficiency of public transit of San Francisco to that of Copenhagen. Comparing accessibility of population-wide health indicators of the US to Germany also makes sense. I definitely agree that the US healthcare system sucks and should not be emulated. But I think many of its critics think healthcare is a solved problem in countries like Germany and it really isn't. Germans are not completely happy with their healthcare system and there is an effort underway to reform it currently. I think it's a better system than the US system, but it's got plenty of problems: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-ti... > In Germany, which spends more on healthcare than almost any other country in the world, hospitals are a greater concern, with this winter’s wave of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) in young children triggering alarm across the country. > Amid reports of overcrowded casualty departments and parents forced to sleep in hospital corridors or travel hundreds of kilometres for a child’s treatment, the Süddeutsche Zeitung said the country was witnessing “what it means when a system implodes … in scenes which for a long time might have seemed unimaginable”. > In a petition to parliament titled: “Alert level red – hospitals in danger”, the German Hospital Society (DKG) again highlighted a chronic lack of staff as the main problem, noting that many hospitals had had to temporarily close casualty departments due to a lack of doctors and nurses. > More than 23,000 posts remain unfilled in Germany’s hospitals after several years of low recruitment and recent mass resignations, particularly in intensive care and operating theatres, by staff citing a workload so extreme that some were unable to take even a short break or go to the toilet. Additionally, the poor health outcomes in the United States are not necessarily the result of the US health care system. Many of the most important drivers of health care outcomes (exercise, nutrition, obesity, drug abuse, etc) are worse in the US. My point isn't that the US health system is great, because it isn't great. My point is that people in the US are well informed about their own problems but generally ignorant about the problems outside the country.
pcthrowaway 3y ago
> The natural born citizens dissatisfied with the US are generally not comparing the US to a developing country or a country with an ongoing war on their soil, which is where most immigrants come from. Even as a Canadian who immigrated to the U.S. (who unfortunately lives in Canada again now), I didn't realize how good I had it until I had given up my U.S. residence
achates 3y ago
In practice they're comparing America to an idealized, fantasy version of other developed countries from 2007. They largely aren't aware of how much the US has pulled ahead since then. The UK now has a lower GDP per capital than Mississippi for example.
- luis8 3y ago
  You should use PPP instead of GDP because GDP does not represent local purchase power

by danans 3y ago

tonmoy 3y ago

On top of that, when we immigrants also compare against other developed countries, we see how immigrant friendly the US is. The natural born citizens wouldn’t necessarily care about that

danans 3y ago
> we see how immigrant friendly the US is. The natural born citizens wouldn’t necessarily care about that To the contrary, plenty do care about it in the sense of being opposed to further immigration from developing countries. "Demographic anxiety" is a term often used to describe this. Also, both natural born citizens of recent immigrant ancestry and those natural born for many generations care because anti-immigrant sentiment is a canary for a broader xenophobic trends. When pressed, almost everyone has an opinion on immigration policy.

andrewmutz 3y ago

> Instead, they are comparing it to other developed countries and focused on specific conditions that matter to them, like housing, transportation, environment, violence, etc. When I hear people complain online about the US, it is very common for them to have a deep understanding of problems in the US, but very superficial understanding of problems in other developed nations. European countries also have lots of problems with housing, healthcare, the environment, racism, the rise of the far right, etc. There are some problems that are uniquely american, like mass shootings. Being an informed citizen isn't just understanding the problems in your country. If you wan't to be a part of positive change, you need to understand what's working and what's not working in other comparable countries as well.

nradov 3y ago
Indeed. It's hilarious to see some Americans claiming things are so much better in "Europe" when their entire experience consists of a few weeks as a tourist or business traveler in first-tier EU cities. Try living for a while in the places where outsiders rarely go and then tell me how great it is.
- throwawaydizjsj 3y ago
  I have done this, its really great for me and my family. Kid goes to public school and most of our friends are locals. Would highly recommend everyone try this for a bit and make their own judgement.
- danans 3y ago
  > Indeed. It's hilarious to see some Americans claiming things are so much better in "Europe" when their entire experience consists of a few weeks as a tourist or business traveler in first-tier EU cities. Being specific in your comparison matters. It is indeed facile to make the statement that "things are so much better in Europe". Blanket statements are usually stupid. It's reasonable, however, to compare the efficacy of public transit of San Francisco to that of Copenhagen, or to compare the a population-wide health indicators of the US to Germany.
  - andrewmutz 3y ago
    > It's not unreasonable, however, to compare the efficiency of public transit of San Francisco to that of Copenhagen. Comparing accessibility of population-wide health indicators of the US to Germany also makes sense. I definitely agree that the US healthcare system sucks and should not be emulated. But I think many of its critics think healthcare is a solved problem in countries like Germany and it really isn't. Germans are not completely happy with their healthcare system and there is an effort underway to reform it currently. I think it's a better system than the US system, but it's got plenty of problems: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-ti... > In Germany, which spends more on healthcare than almost any other country in the world, hospitals are a greater concern, with this winter’s wave of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) in young children triggering alarm across the country. > Amid reports of overcrowded casualty departments and parents forced to sleep in hospital corridors or travel hundreds of kilometres for a child’s treatment, the Süddeutsche Zeitung said the country was witnessing “what it means when a system implodes … in scenes which for a long time might have seemed unimaginable”. > In a petition to parliament titled: “Alert level red – hospitals in danger”, the German Hospital Society (DKG) again highlighted a chronic lack of staff as the main problem, noting that many hospitals had had to temporarily close casualty departments due to a lack of doctors and nurses. > More than 23,000 posts remain unfilled in Germany’s hospitals after several years of low recruitment and recent mass resignations, particularly in intensive care and operating theatres, by staff citing a workload so extreme that some were unable to take even a short break or go to the toilet. Additionally, the poor health outcomes in the United States are not necessarily the result of the US health care system. Many of the most important drivers of health care outcomes (exercise, nutrition, obesity, drug abuse, etc) are worse in the US. My point isn't that the US health system is great, because it isn't great. My point is that people in the US are well informed about their own problems but generally ignorant about the problems outside the country.

pcthrowaway 3y ago

> The natural born citizens dissatisfied with the US are generally not comparing the US to a developing country or a country with an ongoing war on their soil, which is where most immigrants come from. Even as a Canadian who immigrated to the U.S. (who unfortunately lives in Canada again now), I didn't realize how good I had it until I had given up my U.S. residence

achates 3y ago

In practice they're comparing America to an idealized, fantasy version of other developed countries from 2007. They largely aren't aware of how much the US has pulled ahead since then. The UK now has a lower GDP per capital than Mississippi for example.

luis8 3y ago
You should use PPP instead of GDP because GDP does not represent local purchase power