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Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools
- post_break 3y agoWhy wouldn't they, they are the sole provider of the parts, manuals, tools, the software is so locked down you have to ask for their blessing to install them. You can't go to rock auto and get parts for your MacBook Pro.
- kmlx 3y ago> It would also make its parts, tools, and repair documentation available to both non-affiliated repair shops and individual customers, "at fair and reasonable prices“. not sure if this is related, but it looks like a step in the right direction.
- RobotToaster 3y agoWho would decide what "fair and reasonable prices" are? The only reasonable price for documentation that already exists is quite frankly zero.
- kmlx 3y agoi guess Apple? it's their device, and their parts. but anyway, re. price, it's the same issue for car parts, dishwasher parts etc etc
- post_break 3y agoIt's nothing like car parts. You can get re manufactured, OE (not OEM), used, 3rd party parts.
- kmlx 3y agooh, i understand what you mean. i never install anything other than original parts in my cars, and those have huge markups. i guess what the people in this thread are looking for are “OE” parts for smartphones?
- some_random 3y agoThe other question here is how granular these parts are going to be, a board level repair technician might need just one proprietary chip that ought to cost $5, but if their only option to get it is to buy an entire replacement motherboard...
- jwells89 3y agoPart availability will likely mirror that of internal repair processes, and I’m almost certain that Apple isn’t performing board level repairs because that doesn’t scale particularly well. It’s way faster for a technician to swap out the whole board and move on to the next device.
- nordsieck 3y agoIt's still a step in the right direction. Right now, some repair shops (e.g. Louis Rossmann) have had to buy broken laptops and scavenge components in order to make repairs.
- Reason077 3y agoEven that often isn’t possible with the most recent Apple devices. Even genuine parts often can’t be used (or work only in a degraded mode) unless authenticated by Apple’s System Configuration tool. That means you can’t swap many parts, even between identical devices, and expect them to work properly. Presumably this news means that Apple is making the configuration tools more widely available to third parties, but I’ll bet they will only authenticate parts supplied directly by Apple, not parts scavenged from other devices! (There is perhaps some logic to all this: it makes phones less desirable to thieves if they can’t be broken down and resold for parts)
- codeTired 3y agoWhen can I buy parts at a reasonable cost?
- kmlx 3y agowhich parts aren’t at a reasonable cost?
- thibaut_barrere 3y agoChanging the glass on the top of the screen of an iPhone SE (currently trading at 170€ on back market) costs between 90 and 110€ here in France, even if the screen itself is not broken. I hope we'll gradually see decent alternate compatible parts, with a better self-fixability.
- ericmay 3y agoWhen was the iPhone SE you are using released? How much does it cost to replace a similar part on an Android phone released the same year?
- thibaut_barrere 3y agoI think it is the 2020 model (but unsure, I don't have the phone with me). For Android: I have actually asked the repair shop a few minutes ago, and the answer ranges between 50€ and 400€ depending on the actual model, because the Android market is much more diverse (EDIT: for Android phones released around the same period).
- ericmay 3y agoSo if you add the iPhone SE you have in there as just another smartphone it's on the lower end to middle of the range?
- thibaut_barrere 3y ago
- spaceisballer 3y agoI think at this point it makes sense. I imagine most consumers aren’t interested in repairing themselves, but aren’t super interested in going to some random local repair shop. At this point they have their consumers hooked on visiting the Apple Store. Not really a net loss for them, plus it gives off the appearance of being consumer friendly.
- dartos 3y agoYep. They probably see the writing on the wall for right to repair and want to get ahead of it while just casually taking the lead in the iphone repair market
- Bluecobra 3y agoIf it were easier to swap a battery I would do it myself, but they made it so difficult with glue and crap that I would only trust the Apple Store to make the repair since they have the right hardware. Plus, it’s on them if they make a mistake and break my phone.
- wredue 3y agoYeah. And on this topic, a Canadian channel just installed spyware on a PC, and loaded it with lewd images, then asked a bunch of shops to fix the computer. And all of them except a couple that either didn’t turn the laptop on yet, or just full wiped, accessed, and even copied the images. I would definitely like for some things to be reasonably accessible to me for fixing so I didn’t have to rely on privacy disrespecting repair shops.
- criley2 3y ago[flagged]
- konschubert 3y agoWhat percentage of the worldwide landfills is apple products? If I’d wager a guess, I’d say it’s less that 1/1000
- alehlopeh 3y agoThis is absurd. Apple operates a massive global product re-use/recycling program for their own products.
- lotsofpulp 3y agoYou should see the amount of non repairable landfilled junk from going to a kids’ birthday party. Not only does the birthday kid get a ton of non repairable cheap toys they will only play with a couple times, but every kid that attends gets their own “party favor” bag filled with non repairable landfilled junk from Dollar Tree or Amazon. My household has tons of Apple devices, but I guarantee the amount that have ended up in a landfill is miniscule compared to cheap toys given as social gestures that have ended up in the garbage.
- criley2 3y ago[flagged]
- lotsofpulp 3y agoSo many toys nowadays come with small batteries, lights, and circuits. I don’t know if lithium ion is worse than the batteries that come in cheap toys, but it is not clear that “billions” (nowhere near billions based on total AirPods sold from quick search) of wireless headphones in landfills is specifically worse than all the other consumption people do. Also, the utility of AirPods (and other Apple devices) is huge. My wife and I have been using ours since mid 2020.
- faet 3y ago
- RobotToaster 3y agoWhere's the catch? I refuse to believe there isn't one with apple.
- ge96 3y agoThe individual components are coded to the device/can't hot swap identical parts and have it just work. Hugh Jeffreys demoed it with a laptop and phone
- nar001 3y agoApple's self repair program lets you link the parts to your device with a phone call, so that's moot
- ge96 3y agoYeah he shows that process and how even doing that. There's lingering effects like face ID not working anymore or two brand new displays not working the same. iphone 15 https://youtu.be/dbRKQ0OjQeE?si=hb5lNXSwUYIxXyyj&t=323 https://youtu.be/dbRKQ0OjQeE?si=hb5lNXSwUYIxXyyj&t=323 mac https://youtu.be/r0Hwb5xvBn8?si=55apGCKsRoowUFL4&t=272 https://youtu.be/r0Hwb5xvBn8?si=55apGCKsRoowUFL4&t=272
- kodapoda 3y agoDoesn't he say in the video that the issues were resolved once he used Apple-certified parts and called them to link the parts to the device? He even confirmed that the Face ID issues are likely a security feature.
- tacocataco 3y agoI wonder how long it takes to reach the representative. So so soooo many companies hide behind excruciating customer service hell holes to get out of being responsible for fixing mistakes. "You can right to repair, you just have to wait 3 hours on the phone on the world's least stable customer service line." I shouldn't have to drag my balls through apple's pile of glass to use the product I purchased. This is nearly every giant corporation these days, so I guess i have to just stop purchasing anything but necessities. I should note I do not blame the customer service representatives for this. Most businesses are obviously running a skeleton crew and most of the people you talk go have zero authority to fix an issue.
- steveBK123 3y agoCynically this could be one of those laws that the big producers like Apple have a competitive advantage over smaller companies that do one-off production runs with contract manufacturers. When you are at the scale of Apple, you could have a whole team designing your right-to-repair compliant processes, and lobbyists to ensure the law as passed is most favorable to your implementation. It also fits in nicely with Apples general SKU-minimization philosophy (though they've been loosening up there). It is a lot easier to stock parts/manuals/tools for 3 phone SKUs per year which you continue to sell for 2 years than for 25 Samsung Galaxy somethings.
- mlinhares 3y agoBut are there smaller companies producing one-off product runs in the smartphone market that are actually noticeable?
- morkalork 3y agoIt would be twist if instead of industries lobbying for loop holes in right to repair bills, they started lobbying for thorough to the point of being Byzantine ones to keep new entrants out of the market. I guess it will be a function of how worried they are about their moat.
- hed 3y agoThis is exactly what turned domestic US sales tax collection. Once there was market share, figuring out jurisdictional taxing became a moat to keep small players out.
- lotsofpulp 3y agoInsane that the US government does not offer an API for it.
- brookst 3y agoIncumbents love regulation as a barrier to entry. Doesn’t have to be Byzantine, just that extra 5% tax that combines with scale economies to make new entrants unviable. I’ve always thought RtR enthusiasts would be surprised when they finally caught the car. And here we are.
- dghughes 3y agoI think I just felt Louis Rossmann faint.
- sumtechguy 3y agoIm sure we will get to hear how it is still wrong somehow as he will read the fine print.
- solarkraft 3y agoYup, probably another round of Apple pretending to do one thing while doing the opposite ...
- bfung 3y agoLooks like he addresses this about 2mo ago: https://youtu.be/0tB3t7xGWjk?si=qkP7R-8pOP-hrm9n https://youtu.be/0tB3t7xGWjk?si=qkP7R-8pOP-hrm9n
- transcriptase 3y agoWasn’t their initial offering for tool rentals basically malicious compliance? I vaguely recall stories of Apple sending out a shipping pallet of industrial tooling to replace a screen. The speculation at the time was that they were trying to be absurd and demonstrate why the average Joe shouldn’t be trying to do what their approved facilities can.
- Someone 3y agoThey offered you the option to rent professional tools, but also the option to only buy parts. They also allow everybody to download the repair manual for repairs using the professional tools.
- jwells89 3y agoThey ship out the same tools that are used by Apple to do repairs, which enables non-specialists to perform repairs like screen and shell replacements with the same quality and consistency as original factory assembly, including water resistance. That’s difficult to achieve without special tooling.
- PedroBatista 3y agoPlease don't attach any morals to this because there aren't any. This is just another step in a long string of similar announcements and "actions" from Apple to gather ammo against lawsuits and new bills, delay or buy any good will they can get regarding this matter. It's appears they are convinced some meaningful part of the "Right to Repair" can't be stopped and of course as competent strategists they are, Apple can't be caught "of the wrong side of history" so they pretend to switch sides, or even paint themselves as on of the original supporters. I wonder how bad it gets until they use Steve Wozniak's name for this... Either way, I'm 99% sure in practical terms this will amount to as much as the "Apple-certified repair" program or those repair kits sold for almost the price of a device. I'm sorry to be so negative, but the company is the same, the people are the same, their track record has been the same. So.. what are the chances this is different?
- jjallen 3y agoTotally agree; I don't trust them for a minute. If they were so about right to repair we would be able to easily change our batteries in our Apple devices but we all know that that is super difficult if possible at all.
- chongli 3y agoPlease don't attach any morals to this because there aren't any. This is the way to think about all businesses. Even if they’ve been making your favourite products for years, never forget that they’re just here to make money. People who attach morals, norms, and emotions to businesses are falling into the marketing trap. This is by design. Unfortunately I don’t know much of a way to get people to snap out of it other than seeing them get burned when their favourite company changes tack.
- kdmccormick 3y ago*large businesses. Plenty of small businesses sometimes act against their own self-interest because they genuinely care about their community and their workers. See: retiring restaurant owners who sell to someone who will keep the tradition alive rather than the highest bidder.
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago[dupe] More discussion over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38003292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38003292
- solarkraft 3y agoI'm not even going to read up on what they say they'll do. Apple has bait-and-switched on repair numerous times. I'll wait for their actions and Louis Rossmann's review of them.
- turquoisevar 3y agoI'll save you the wait. Rossmann will never voice full-throated support, no matter what Apple does. Not only because his clout now heavily depends on dissent but also because his individual needs go far beyond that of the average repair shop, much less the average consumer. There is no world in which Apple can meet those needs short of him getting direct access to all internal classified documentation and the assembly line to pick and grab any piece and part he might desire.
- yieldcrv 3y agoTheir approach is one aspect I like about the United States basically what we have here is a California set of laws that they’re more okay with, and a Minnesota set of laws they dont like, so they’re using the opportunity of interest from the White House to get California’s law passed by Congress to render the Minnesota one redundant and ignorable before that one's idea spreads What I like about the US is that you can do the same on anything, while still operating within a familiar framework in comparison to a different country At the state level, for business if the case law in Delaware isn't your favorite, you can literally just go argue for the opposite in Wyoming. They have a chancery court too. It still is a land of opportunity, as long as you’re willing to warp the universe of opportunities yourself.
- cuddlyogre 3y agoIf they were serious, they'd build a phone with a user replaceable battery. As in, my battery died while standing in line at the store and I can swap it out right there without tools and 6 hours and a lot of anxiety.
- kmeisthax 3y agoThis bill needs to provide at least one of these things in order to not be a damp squib: - Electronic components. Most attempts to water down R2R specifically involve limiting the access provided to "assemblies" rather than individual chips. OEMs don't actually do component level repair[0], the labor costs are too high, so they make the consumer eat the cost of a logic board swap. Furthermore they don't want to have to sell components because that makes product cloning easier. - Parts pairing tools. Parts used to authenticate the user are typically paired to the device specifically to prohibit third-party replacement. This is for a legitimate reason[1], but that reason has been weaponized into a generic prohibition on third-party repair. Repair shops should have access to the tools needed to swap serialized parts between phones. - Calibration tools. Parts that aren't explicitly locked out for security reasons still sometimes require calibration. This is mainly because Apple likes to get the most out of their parts, and is a legitimate engineering reason, but Apple won't provide the calibration tools because it's PrOPrIETaRY. This often generates confusion when people swap logic boards and think that something is paired when it's not, and we can't tell the difference until someone actually goes and builds their own calibration tool for it[2]. - "Intellectual property"[3] exemptions. People who make third-party pairing or calibration tools run the risk of spurious DMCA 1201 claims. While DMCA 1201 is ostensibly there to prevent people from selling copying tools for copyrighted works, that protection also applies to software, and software has a nasty habit of working its way into absolutely everything. While it might ultimately be legal to produce a tool to allow parts to be swapped, that still subjects the producer of that tool to years and years of litigation to prove their legality. Even the existing DMCA 1201 exemption process, which is specifically intended to prevent this, only applies to individual acts of circumvention and not tools. We need either a separate exemption process for tools, or at the very least, an extension of copyright misuse to include "adding DRM to things that are not copyrightable" and statutory damages for such misuse. [0] Unless forced to do so to fix a product defect, and usually it's done like shit by the lowest bidder [1] Fake touch sensors can just lie and provide the same fingerprint data each time [2] Such as the calibration tool for the MacBook angle sensors, which everyone thought was paired to the device - even Apple's PR team - but wasn't. People were hallucinating all sorts of explanations as for why you would need to lock down an angle sensor when it turns out Apple just doesn't communicate any of this. [3] I'm using the phrase "Intellectual property" in the sense of "anything we can use to stop competitors from competing", not in reference to any actual, specific law.
- darklycan51 3y agoAnyone not naive knows that this is a coordinated plan to stop the full bill from passing, they want to control as much of the narrative as possible.
- hendersoon 3y agoApple's "right to repair" is tied to Apple parts and the Apple service mechanism. Each part has a serial and that must be linked to the rest of your hardware on Apple's side, or you'll get error messages and various stuff doesn't work like biometrics, blue light reduction, camera ML, etc. So yes they'll let a shop repair your device, or you can do it yourself, no problem. But you won't be buying even genuine Apple parts from eBay or pulling them from a broken device and reusing. You must, MUST, purchase directly from Apple at their list prices.
- acoil 3y agoThe idea of an Apple cordless screwdriver is seriously triggering my tool fetish.
- mgdev 3y agoApple could afford to put out the best repair tools in the industry, doing two things: 1/ deposition competitors with inferior repairability v performance scores, ultimately leading to increased market share among the most discerning customers, who are also influencers for other non-expert buyers 2/ eventually create a thriving secondary market that reaches consumers who otherwise wouldn't consider buying Apple products, ultimately leading to increased market share among non-expert buyers and children (who grow up to be customers)
- joeman1000 3y ago3 weeks ago my iPad got dropped in water for half a second, then stopped turning on the next day. I booked it in for ‘repair’ at apple, only to be told “sorry, you don’t have applecare, so a replacement will be ~$1300aud. We don’t actually repair any ipad, and offer no genuine parts for any iPad repair”. This was not an old ipad, mind you, but a 2021 M1! Here’s what I think of Apples right to repair support: bullshit