6 ms·

H-1B Visa Program Changes Aimed at Stopping Applicants from Gaming Lottery

27 points by impish9208 3y ago

Racing0461 3y ago
> foreign entrepreneurs to sponsor themselves for visas can this be done via executive action or rule making process? sounds like something that needs a new law.
- solomatov 3y ago
  I am not a lawyer, but in US the federal law consists of 2 parts: US Code (USC), and Code of Federal Regulation (CFR). The USC is created and maintained by the Congress. USC delegates to federal agencies implementation of USC through CFR, i.e. by writing it. Any changes to CFR, should be published and given a comment period, my understanding that it's 6 months. During this time, the Congress has option to review, and disapprove changes to CFR if they see that it makes sense. (Others could also write comments and send them to the federal agency). My non-lawyerish understanding is that this describes proposed changes to CFR within the authority delegated by the congress.
  - Racing0461 3y ago
    >> Apart from the lottery changes, the Biden administration is also proposing, for the first time, to allow entrepreneurs to sponsor themselves for an H-1B visa. Until now, with narrow exceptions, professionals on these visas were required to be employees rather than owners of a company. That change, if successful, would have a seismic impact on Silicon valley, where many of the people launching new tech startups are foreign-born and have few or no long-term options to remain in the country, typically after coming here for college. Yeah this seems like a pretty big change i think will be taken to court for. This effectively makes the h1b visa an eb5 visa.
sokoloff 3y ago
https://archive.ph/ynBfc https://archive.ph/ynBfc
black_13 3y ago
[dead]
ecshafer 3y ago
The change i would like to see is an auction system for work visas. If this is for extraordinary talent, the auctioning it by salary should make it more fair. If someone is offered a $500k/year job and another $50k/year the $500k year job is the more in demand.
- huevosabio 3y ago
  Yes, and increase the number of visas by 10x
- vkdelta 3y ago
  This won’t work. 1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc). 2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance. What we need is a way to avoid abuse by body shops.
  - light_hue_1 3y ago
    Of course this will work. We want the people who do the jobs that have the most impact on the economy. > 1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc). Why!? If those people are important they can be paid well too. There are plenty of chemical engineers that make good money. > 2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance. Startups can pay too. In any case, most startups don't sponsor H1Bs because of the uncertainty associated with the process.
    - tomohelix 3y ago
      Do those chemical engineers make the same amount of money as a software dev with the same amount of experience? A fresh ChemE grad would be lucky to land a 120K job as a process engineer. Very lucky. An entry software job is 150K. Does this mean the a CS grad is on average more impactful to the economy than a chemical engineer? Not all industries can pay as much as software. A PhD with an extra 5-10 years of industrial experience may get a 200K salary in biotech, often less. A CS bachelor with 1-2 years of experience would get that 200K. Pay doesn't always equal the value of your contribution, especially if you compare them across different fields.
29athrowaway 3y ago
I think if you submit more than one application you should be processed last. The spirit of the H-1B visa is being a last resort when filling vacant positions. "Prior deference" doesn't make much sense to me.
mrtksn 3y ago
Can someone explain why work visas are an acceptable thing? How come the government can know better than the companies who should they employ? Is there a risk of Apple employing an Afghan shepherd as a product manager if there wasn’t a visa requirement? If it is about creating artificial scarcity to rig the job market, I’m not sure it works for the employees since the work visas are tied to a job so as a result you end up with employees who can’t stand against their employers of fear getting deported. IMHO, the visa reform should be abolishing the visa regime. Just security checks. Why not have a meritocratic job? And no, nationality is a skill. Very unpopular opinion - I know but just can’t get an explanation on why everyone loves visas so much. Why do you love being limited with your options and controlled by the bureaucracy.
- huytersd 3y ago
  What you’re proposing is unlimited immigration. The government checks are to make sure the limited immigrants we get are of high quality.
  - bmmayer1 3y ago
    I think OP is just doubting the government's ability to know which immigrants are higher quality vs. the companies who seek to employ them.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      Exactly. I don’t believe that a company can be worse than the government in picking their employees. If the government has the ability to pick skilled employees, maybe all the employees(not just the immigrants)should be picked by the bureaucrats.
      - ricktdotorg 3y ago
        but the companies are picking their chosen employees-to-be. the companies are literally the ones submitting the H1-B forms asking the government to approve their choice so they can employ them. the government does not say "this person is not the right choice for this job." the government does however do the necessary criminal/education/security/background checks etc to make sure the candidate (or company) isn't lying. some of these checks may be difficult for a company without government-level resources (maybe?) to perform. so if the checks are passed, and the company has performed the labor cert properly and there are visas left (quotas), then a visa is issued to the candidate that the company picked.
berserk1010 3y ago
it's crazy that US puts the best and brightest immigrants through lots of hell, when other immigrants can just walk through the southern border of America, or fly into US and just stay and setup a decent and quiet life and, don't have to deal with the hoops of proper immigration And for that matter, that applies to immigrants to Italy, Canada, England, etc etc
- yellow_postit 3y ago
  We really need a points based and much simpler system in the US
- etchalon 3y ago
  It turns out doing things the "correct" way is harder than just not doing that.
- howlingfantods 3y ago
  I think you’re underestimating the agony of a overland trek through Central America…
- sunshowers 3y ago
  I was on an H-1B for 10 years. Please don't minimize the ordeals unauthorized immigrants have to go through. https://www.cfr.org/article/crossing-darien-gap-migrants-risk-death-journey-us https://www.cfr.org/article/crossing-darien-gap-migrants-ris...
- bdcravens 3y ago
  The H1B system isn't about getting bright minds into the US, it's about filling gaps in US worker skills. It's not meant to benefit immigrants, but US companies.
  - colechristensen 3y ago
    What it is actually about is cheaper labor. Without H1-B companies would have to compete more for talent and invest in more education and promote their in demand careers to young Americans. I would much rather see FAANG invest in opportunities for inner city and poor rural high schools… programs to support bringing up people already in this country. Rather than siphoning off the best and most ambitious people from poor countries who need those people’s talents. I can’t blame anyone for chasing the best opportunities for themselves and their families though. I do not like how H1-B alters the game and who loses as a result.
fallingknife 3y ago
Why on earth is there a lottery? Shouldn't we just rank them by the salary offered by their sponsor company and take the highest?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  There are presumably shortages of domestic labor in fields other than high-frequency trading and AI (or whatever the top-paying job categories are).
  - fallingknife 3y ago
    Labor shortages in highly paid and sought after jobs are a myth. We have a massive labor force in the US, and any "shortage" could be addressed by training paid for by the employers. Of course they would rather import cheap foreign labor, but we are under no obligation to allow them to do so.
  - bhickey 3y ago
    They can remedy a labor shortage by paying more.
gumby 3y ago
All this gyration is too late for my son’s partner: they have decided to move away. I guess that was the intention, eh?
nova22033 3y ago
In recent years, though, the government found evidence that individual applicants were submitting as many as 10 entries into the lottery to increase their chances of winning. Many of those applicants, moreover, were being sponsored by the same handful of small, little-known tech companies. Everyone knows Indian "consulting" companies abuse the process. Where are the prosecutions?

27 points by impish9208 3y ago

> foreign entrepreneurs to sponsor themselves for visas can this be done via executive action or rule making process? sounds like something that needs a new law.

solomatov 3y ago
I am not a lawyer, but in US the federal law consists of 2 parts: US Code (USC), and Code of Federal Regulation (CFR). The USC is created and maintained by the Congress. USC delegates to federal agencies implementation of USC through CFR, i.e. by writing it. Any changes to CFR, should be published and given a comment period, my understanding that it's 6 months. During this time, the Congress has option to review, and disapprove changes to CFR if they see that it makes sense. (Others could also write comments and send them to the federal agency). My non-lawyerish understanding is that this describes proposed changes to CFR within the authority delegated by the congress.
- Racing0461 3y ago
  >> Apart from the lottery changes, the Biden administration is also proposing, for the first time, to allow entrepreneurs to sponsor themselves for an H-1B visa. Until now, with narrow exceptions, professionals on these visas were required to be employees rather than owners of a company. That change, if successful, would have a seismic impact on Silicon valley, where many of the people launching new tech startups are foreign-born and have few or no long-term options to remain in the country, typically after coming here for college. Yeah this seems like a pretty big change i think will be taken to court for. This effectively makes the h1b visa an eb5 visa.

sokoloff 3y ago

https://archive.ph/ynBfc https://archive.ph/ynBfc

black_13 3y ago

[dead]

ecshafer 3y ago

The change i would like to see is an auction system for work visas. If this is for extraordinary talent, the auctioning it by salary should make it more fair. If someone is offered a $500k/year job and another $50k/year the $500k year job is the more in demand.

huevosabio 3y ago
Yes, and increase the number of visas by 10x
vkdelta 3y ago
This won’t work. 1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc). 2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance. What we need is a way to avoid abuse by body shops.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  Of course this will work. We want the people who do the jobs that have the most impact on the economy. > 1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc). Why!? If those people are important they can be paid well too. There are plenty of chemical engineers that make good money. > 2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance. Startups can pay too. In any case, most startups don't sponsor H1Bs because of the uncertainty associated with the process.
  - tomohelix 3y ago
    Do those chemical engineers make the same amount of money as a software dev with the same amount of experience? A fresh ChemE grad would be lucky to land a 120K job as a process engineer. Very lucky. An entry software job is 150K. Does this mean the a CS grad is on average more impactful to the economy than a chemical engineer? Not all industries can pay as much as software. A PhD with an extra 5-10 years of industrial experience may get a 200K salary in biotech, often less. A CS bachelor with 1-2 years of experience would get that 200K. Pay doesn't always equal the value of your contribution, especially if you compare them across different fields.

29athrowaway 3y ago

I think if you submit more than one application you should be processed last. The spirit of the H-1B visa is being a last resort when filling vacant positions. "Prior deference" doesn't make much sense to me.

mrtksn 3y ago

Can someone explain why work visas are an acceptable thing? How come the government can know better than the companies who should they employ? Is there a risk of Apple employing an Afghan shepherd as a product manager if there wasn’t a visa requirement? If it is about creating artificial scarcity to rig the job market, I’m not sure it works for the employees since the work visas are tied to a job so as a result you end up with employees who can’t stand against their employers of fear getting deported. IMHO, the visa reform should be abolishing the visa regime. Just security checks. Why not have a meritocratic job? And no, nationality is a skill. Very unpopular opinion - I know but just can’t get an explanation on why everyone loves visas so much. Why do you love being limited with your options and controlled by the bureaucracy.

huytersd 3y ago
What you’re proposing is unlimited immigration. The government checks are to make sure the limited immigrants we get are of high quality.
- bmmayer1 3y ago
  I think OP is just doubting the government's ability to know which immigrants are higher quality vs. the companies who seek to employ them.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Exactly. I don’t believe that a company can be worse than the government in picking their employees. If the government has the ability to pick skilled employees, maybe all the employees(not just the immigrants)should be picked by the bureaucrats.
    - ricktdotorg 3y ago
      but the companies are picking their chosen employees-to-be. the companies are literally the ones submitting the H1-B forms asking the government to approve their choice so they can employ them. the government does not say "this person is not the right choice for this job." the government does however do the necessary criminal/education/security/background checks etc to make sure the candidate (or company) isn't lying. some of these checks may be difficult for a company without government-level resources (maybe?) to perform. so if the checks are passed, and the company has performed the labor cert properly and there are visas left (quotas), then a visa is issued to the candidate that the company picked.

berserk1010 3y ago

it's crazy that US puts the best and brightest immigrants through lots of hell, when other immigrants can just walk through the southern border of America, or fly into US and just stay and setup a decent and quiet life and, don't have to deal with the hoops of proper immigration And for that matter, that applies to immigrants to Italy, Canada, England, etc etc

yellow_postit 3y ago
We really need a points based and much simpler system in the US
etchalon 3y ago
It turns out doing things the "correct" way is harder than just not doing that.
howlingfantods 3y ago
I think you’re underestimating the agony of a overland trek through Central America…
sunshowers 3y ago
I was on an H-1B for 10 years. Please don't minimize the ordeals unauthorized immigrants have to go through. https://www.cfr.org/article/crossing-darien-gap-migrants-risk-death-journey-us https://www.cfr.org/article/crossing-darien-gap-migrants-ris...
bdcravens 3y ago
The H1B system isn't about getting bright minds into the US, it's about filling gaps in US worker skills. It's not meant to benefit immigrants, but US companies.
- colechristensen 3y ago
  What it is actually about is cheaper labor. Without H1-B companies would have to compete more for talent and invest in more education and promote their in demand careers to young Americans. I would much rather see FAANG invest in opportunities for inner city and poor rural high schools… programs to support bringing up people already in this country. Rather than siphoning off the best and most ambitious people from poor countries who need those people’s talents. I can’t blame anyone for chasing the best opportunities for themselves and their families though. I do not like how H1-B alters the game and who loses as a result.

fallingknife 3y ago

Why on earth is there a lottery? Shouldn't we just rank them by the salary offered by their sponsor company and take the highest?

sokoloff 3y ago
There are presumably shortages of domestic labor in fields other than high-frequency trading and AI (or whatever the top-paying job categories are).
- fallingknife 3y ago
  Labor shortages in highly paid and sought after jobs are a myth. We have a massive labor force in the US, and any "shortage" could be addressed by training paid for by the employers. Of course they would rather import cheap foreign labor, but we are under no obligation to allow them to do so.
- bhickey 3y ago
  They can remedy a labor shortage by paying more.

gumby 3y ago

All this gyration is too late for my son’s partner: they have decided to move away. I guess that was the intention, eh?

nova22033 3y ago

In recent years, though, the government found evidence that individual applicants were submitting as many as 10 entries into the lottery to increase their chances of winning. Many of those applicants, moreover, were being sponsored by the same handful of small, little-known tech companies. Everyone knows Indian "consulting" companies abuse the process. Where are the prosecutions?