5 ms·

"The Year of the Linux Desktop" won't ever happen... and that's partially because the delta between where Linux is now and the implied perfect Linux that powers

by jerf 3y ago

"The Year of the Linux Desktop" won't ever happen... and that's partially because the delta between where Linux is now and the implied perfect Linux that powers TYotLD is now too small to be of marketing interest, just as the original article is complaining about. It can now only be a creeping process because there's no room for a big bang improvement any more. My family is just casually using Linux now. I didn't even have to "train" them when I switched. The only thing we keep windows around for now is the unbelievably awful Cricut software, which is clearly a ramshackle product barely managing to run in Windows as it is. I also use it for work, and the only significant delta I've noticed is that Zoom doesn't want to share individual apps in my setup. (Maybe it does in Wayland, I dunno.) It has otherwise been quite a while since I've had to tell someone "No, I can't do that, I'm on Linux." The marketers for Windows face a problem they will be incapable of perceiving or acknowledging, which is that they are now the primary problem with Windows. Their need to change things just so they can say they changed things, their need to pile another feature on top of the ever-larger tottering stack of backwards compatibility already in place, their need to murder my experience using their product with ads so they can get another $3/year of revenue from me, these things that they did are the primary reason I switched away, am staying away, and am advising people around me to do the same. Eat that seed corn, marketers. Who needs $25 billion/year in revenue anyhow? A pittance, surely.

doubled112 3y ago
Is the Cricut software still a Chrome browser plugin? It can't be. That thing was terrible. It runs on a phone or tablet if your Cricut does Bluetooth. We just make an SVG on a PC in whatever we want, make the quick tweaks in the Cricut software and send it that way. Saves us from needing Windows PCs.
- jerf 3y ago
  Had not occurred to me to check tablets/phones/Android, thank you for the the suggestion.
brucethemoose2 3y ago
> Maybe it does in Wayland, I dunno. And there lies the problem with linux. You basically have to know how it works to use it and maintain it. You, at the very least, have to be a lightweight diy computer technician (or have someone you know like this) to figure out some intractable issues, like "copy paste isn't working" or "my screen is black." You can be actively hostile to learning desktop computing and still kinda muddle through using Windows. I have yet to find a distro I would, say, trust with my mother or some former work colleagues, but immutable distros like Fedora Kionite are getting closer.
- jerf 3y ago
  Along with the fact you took away the exact opposite of the point I was making, which is that real people and real use cases are Just Working more and more often for Linux, Windows is no longer a maintenance free paradise either. Well, I mean, it never really was the paradise that it is often presented as in the Linux vs. Windows debate. I don't know where you're getting the idea that a normal user can fix "my screen is black". I've fixed a lot of relative's Windows machines over the years, in ways that often involved some relatively deep web searching and wizardry. That's just ahistorical garbage. But now even a baseline and otherwise functioning install of Windows does not start out user friendly. It is a nightmare of popup hell that none of my family like to use, and I must deduct major points from considering the user a monetization source and stuffing ads down through your operating system. Thanks to the marketer's decisions, Windows is simply not a 10/10 automatic default choice anymore, and the first derivative is clearly negative. More and more Microsoft wants me to upgrade Windows so they can grab more stuff and more things to stuff ads into, not because they're bringing their users any value.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is. Jerf is presumably not using wayland nor a Zoom developer, so not knowing whether something works on some other random system (as in "not used by me") isn't exactly a problem with Linux. > You, at the very least, have to be a lightweight diy computer technician (or have someone you know like this) to figure out some intractable issues, like "copy paste isn't working" or "my screen is black." This can happen on all systems. My HP-recommends-windows-11 laptop had a "my webcam is not detected" issue for a full year after I bought it. It worked fine out of the box on Linux, so the hardware wasn't defective. My it-just-works MacBook Pro became terribly laggy and had blinking patches on the external screen after some update. Hell, I even knew what the issue was (botched nvidia drivers) but there wasn't much I could do about it. A different it-just-works MacBook Pro had the "my screen is black" issue. I also knew what the issue was – shoddy soldering job of the GPU. Nothing I could do about it except, paradoxically, slap a Linux on it which could be convinced to not turn on the dGPU and would happily run on the iGPU exclusively. Computers just suck sometimes.
mattl 3y ago
The year of Linux desktops already happened in 2020 when people had Chromebooks foisted upon them in light of the pandemic. Most of those Chromebooks are now in landfill too, I’m sure.
- ghaff 3y ago
  >Most of those Chromebooks are now in landfill too, I’m sure. Why would that be? A browser is almost all many people use a laptop for. I had to retire mine from about ten years ago but that's because it was out of support and the only reason I won't replace it probably is because I have an old spare MacBook and no one makes a particularly good Chromebook optimized for traveling.
  - ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
    What would "optimized for traveling" mean for you? The Chromebooks I've seen are all pretty small with a small power brick. What else do you need?
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Although I go back and forth I've really liked my little 11" Asus for travel. Admittedly the delta between that and something like a 13" MacBook Air in terms of weight and size isn't that much these days and I don't even think about getting out a laptop on a plane anyway. I've never been able to make a tablet and keyboard work for me for productivity, especially balancing them on my lap.
  - mattl 3y ago
    A lot of them got given to kids, and they tend to break fairly easily.
phpisthebest 3y ago
10 years ago I was 100% linux desktop only. Today I am 100% windows desktop. Linux still suffers from the same problems it did when I left, terrible multi monitor support. Right now I am running 4 Monitors, an UltraWide, 1080p Landscape, 4K Landscape, and a 1920x1200 portrait mode. This configuration of different sizes of montiors, in different orientations has always been, and continues to be a nightmare on linux. Windows has the absolute best multi-monitor support, and even after going with an UltraWide I still find I want many montiors
- dralley 3y ago
  >Linux still suffers from the same problems it did when I left, terrible multi monitor support. Right now I am running 4 Monitors, an UltraWide, 1080p Landscape, 4K Landscape, and a 1920x1200 portrait mode. This configuration of different sizes of montiors, in different orientations has always been, and continues to be a nightmare on linux. It's horrifically terrible on Xorg. It's not bad on Wayland.
  - Zardoz84 3y ago
    What desktop manager are you using. With KDE I felt that even, with X11, it's far superior that the mishap that it's Windows
  - fsflover 3y ago
    I don't know about four monitors, but three work fine it seems: https://social.librem.one/@francois/111254950660731005 https://social.librem.one/@francois/111254950660731005.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      "Works" has always been hotely constested, the problem I always ran into is the wayland and X treat have only 1 composite or what ever space, it then attempts to carve it up, so when you have odd sized and monitors that are not in a perfect square you end up with problems for example in the image there are 2 monitors above the laptop with the laptop being a 3rd screen, assuming they are all 1080p, x/wayland sees that as 3840 x 2160, then in effect attemts to block out 540 px on either side of the lower monitor, that only works sometimes Then the shit really hits the fan when you go to play a game, windows is always very good about going full screen only on the primary monitor. X Wayland, I have no idea how it chooses were to go, also placing things gets really weird if you monitors are out of order, as 0x0 coordinate may not be where you think it is... There is just 1000 little things that deep in the core of X that were carried over in Wayland that makes multimonitor support poor in Linux, and I dont think it will ever change.
jwells89 3y ago
I think that distros with “perfect mirror” DEs could make a big difference in bringing about TYotLD. Lots of DEs are vaguely Windows-like, but this isn’t enough for non-technical users. It’s still different, and this adds enough friction that anybody who might’ve been interested quickly loses interest. On the other hand, if a distro could be sold as “Windows but better” (using a modern Win10 like DE) or “like Windows in the good old days” (using a Win2K/XP/7 DE), it’s significantly more compelling. Add in something that’s like Proton but more intelligent and automatic (e.g. it sees you’re trying to install X version of MS Office, and so configures everything to work correctly automatically) and it’s even more interesting. I know that Lindows used to be a thing, but it made a few critical errors: selling the product (opening them to litigation), not throughly duplicating the Windows desktop well enough, and the integrated WINE not being mature enough. All of that is avoidable now.
- HayBale 3y ago
  I would say Win clone DE would be horrible for the new users as it would be too similar for the users to fully comprehend that they switch the system and still too different to not incur frustration. Because you can't make 100% copy of Windows without making cheap knockoff of Windows. Linux is in good state right now it does not need another major change.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Depends on the type of user I think. For totally non-technical, they're never going to be interfacing with any of the under the hood differences anyway… the biggest change for them is going to be using an App Store like package manager UI instead of downloading random exe files. The group that I'd expect to be most likely to stumble with a clone DE is the group that is just technical enough to get themselves in trouble. This group tends to overestimate their own technical capabilities and quickly frustrates when discovering unexpected differences. For this group, yes I'd agree they'd be better off with a more standard "Linuxy" DE.
pjmlp 3y ago
Like fellow commenter, I spend most of my time across Windows, Android (where Linux kernel is an implementation detail), macOS, leaving GNU/Linux for some server deployments and an aging netbook from the glory Netbook days (2009). I had a UNIX zealot phase, starting with Xenix in 1993, used most well known commercial UNIXes since then, started my GNU/Linux travel with Slackware 2.0 in 1995's Summer, bought all Linux Journal issues until they went out of business. Yet by the time Windows 7 came out, I had enough of always making up for Year of Desktop Linux continuous reboots of subsystems, fragmentation and what not, and VMWare did it for me. Like many people that went to OS X for their UNIX fix, for me using GNU/Linux was always a cheap way to have UNIX at home, so anything that does POSIX well enough will do, and it is a pity that we lost Solaris. So Windows, macOS and Android it is.
- alsoold 3y ago
  You're an old person now. You should try again. Linux is an order of magnitude better than those. It was then too, but maybe in the past decade youll have become more able to appreciate it.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Missing the part that I know perfectly well how GNU/Linux works in modern laptops. There is always something that doesn't quite work, even on System 76, Tuxedo, Framework or Dell XPS 13 devices. Sure GNU/Linux might work perfectly alright on classical desktop hardware, a dying breed outside gaming. Speaking of which, where GNU/Linux needs to emulate Win32 and DirectX to be relevant at all. Not even Android game developers care about GNU/Linux, despite the NDK being about ISO C, ISO C++, GL ES/Vulkan, OpenSL, Open MAX.
    - alsoold 3y ago
      You've got it backwards. Windows has to engage in collusion and buyouts to be relevant.
      - pjmlp 3y ago

by jerf 3y ago

doubled112 3y ago

Is the Cricut software still a Chrome browser plugin? It can't be. That thing was terrible. It runs on a phone or tablet if your Cricut does Bluetooth. We just make an SVG on a PC in whatever we want, make the quick tweaks in the Cricut software and send it that way. Saves us from needing Windows PCs.

jerf 3y ago
Had not occurred to me to check tablets/phones/Android, thank you for the the suggestion.

brucethemoose2 3y ago

> Maybe it does in Wayland, I dunno. And there lies the problem with linux. You basically have to know how it works to use it and maintain it. You, at the very least, have to be a lightweight diy computer technician (or have someone you know like this) to figure out some intractable issues, like "copy paste isn't working" or "my screen is black." You can be actively hostile to learning desktop computing and still kinda muddle through using Windows. I have yet to find a distro I would, say, trust with my mother or some former work colleagues, but immutable distros like Fedora Kionite are getting closer.

jerf 3y ago
Along with the fact you took away the exact opposite of the point I was making, which is that real people and real use cases are Just Working more and more often for Linux, Windows is no longer a maintenance free paradise either. Well, I mean, it never really was the paradise that it is often presented as in the Linux vs. Windows debate. I don't know where you're getting the idea that a normal user can fix "my screen is black". I've fixed a lot of relative's Windows machines over the years, in ways that often involved some relatively deep web searching and wizardry. That's just ahistorical garbage. But now even a baseline and otherwise functioning install of Windows does not start out user friendly. It is a nightmare of popup hell that none of my family like to use, and I must deduct major points from considering the user a monetization source and stuffing ads down through your operating system. Thanks to the marketer's decisions, Windows is simply not a 10/10 automatic default choice anymore, and the first derivative is clearly negative. More and more Microsoft wants me to upgrade Windows so they can grab more stuff and more things to stuff ads into, not because they're bringing their users any value.
vladvasiliu 3y ago
I'm not sure what your point is. Jerf is presumably not using wayland nor a Zoom developer, so not knowing whether something works on some other random system (as in "not used by me") isn't exactly a problem with Linux. > You, at the very least, have to be a lightweight diy computer technician (or have someone you know like this) to figure out some intractable issues, like "copy paste isn't working" or "my screen is black." This can happen on all systems. My HP-recommends-windows-11 laptop had a "my webcam is not detected" issue for a full year after I bought it. It worked fine out of the box on Linux, so the hardware wasn't defective. My it-just-works MacBook Pro became terribly laggy and had blinking patches on the external screen after some update. Hell, I even knew what the issue was (botched nvidia drivers) but there wasn't much I could do about it. A different it-just-works MacBook Pro had the "my screen is black" issue. I also knew what the issue was – shoddy soldering job of the GPU. Nothing I could do about it except, paradoxically, slap a Linux on it which could be convinced to not turn on the dGPU and would happily run on the iGPU exclusively. Computers just suck sometimes.

mattl 3y ago

The year of Linux desktops already happened in 2020 when people had Chromebooks foisted upon them in light of the pandemic. Most of those Chromebooks are now in landfill too, I’m sure.

ghaff 3y ago
>Most of those Chromebooks are now in landfill too, I’m sure. Why would that be? A browser is almost all many people use a laptop for. I had to retire mine from about ten years ago but that's because it was out of support and the only reason I won't replace it probably is because I have an old spare MacBook and no one makes a particularly good Chromebook optimized for traveling.
- ForkMeOnTinder 3y ago
  What would "optimized for traveling" mean for you? The Chromebooks I've seen are all pretty small with a small power brick. What else do you need?
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Although I go back and forth I've really liked my little 11" Asus for travel. Admittedly the delta between that and something like a 13" MacBook Air in terms of weight and size isn't that much these days and I don't even think about getting out a laptop on a plane anyway. I've never been able to make a tablet and keyboard work for me for productivity, especially balancing them on my lap.
- mattl 3y ago
  A lot of them got given to kids, and they tend to break fairly easily.

phpisthebest 3y ago

10 years ago I was 100% linux desktop only. Today I am 100% windows desktop. Linux still suffers from the same problems it did when I left, terrible multi monitor support. Right now I am running 4 Monitors, an UltraWide, 1080p Landscape, 4K Landscape, and a 1920x1200 portrait mode. This configuration of different sizes of montiors, in different orientations has always been, and continues to be a nightmare on linux. Windows has the absolute best multi-monitor support, and even after going with an UltraWide I still find I want many montiors

dralley 3y ago
>Linux still suffers from the same problems it did when I left, terrible multi monitor support. Right now I am running 4 Monitors, an UltraWide, 1080p Landscape, 4K Landscape, and a 1920x1200 portrait mode. This configuration of different sizes of montiors, in different orientations has always been, and continues to be a nightmare on linux. It's horrifically terrible on Xorg. It's not bad on Wayland.
- Zardoz84 3y ago
  What desktop manager are you using. With KDE I felt that even, with X11, it's far superior that the mishap that it's Windows
- fsflover 3y ago
  I don't know about four monitors, but three work fine it seems: https://social.librem.one/@francois/111254950660731005 https://social.librem.one/@francois/111254950660731005.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    "Works" has always been hotely constested, the problem I always ran into is the wayland and X treat have only 1 composite or what ever space, it then attempts to carve it up, so when you have odd sized and monitors that are not in a perfect square you end up with problems for example in the image there are 2 monitors above the laptop with the laptop being a 3rd screen, assuming they are all 1080p, x/wayland sees that as 3840 x 2160, then in effect attemts to block out 540 px on either side of the lower monitor, that only works sometimes Then the shit really hits the fan when you go to play a game, windows is always very good about going full screen only on the primary monitor. X Wayland, I have no idea how it chooses were to go, also placing things gets really weird if you monitors are out of order, as 0x0 coordinate may not be where you think it is... There is just 1000 little things that deep in the core of X that were carried over in Wayland that makes multimonitor support poor in Linux, and I dont think it will ever change.

jwells89 3y ago

I think that distros with “perfect mirror” DEs could make a big difference in bringing about TYotLD. Lots of DEs are vaguely Windows-like, but this isn’t enough for non-technical users. It’s still different, and this adds enough friction that anybody who might’ve been interested quickly loses interest. On the other hand, if a distro could be sold as “Windows but better” (using a modern Win10 like DE) or “like Windows in the good old days” (using a Win2K/XP/7 DE), it’s significantly more compelling. Add in something that’s like Proton but more intelligent and automatic (e.g. it sees you’re trying to install X version of MS Office, and so configures everything to work correctly automatically) and it’s even more interesting. I know that Lindows used to be a thing, but it made a few critical errors: selling the product (opening them to litigation), not throughly duplicating the Windows desktop well enough, and the integrated WINE not being mature enough. All of that is avoidable now.

HayBale 3y ago
I would say Win clone DE would be horrible for the new users as it would be too similar for the users to fully comprehend that they switch the system and still too different to not incur frustration. Because you can't make 100% copy of Windows without making cheap knockoff of Windows. Linux is in good state right now it does not need another major change.
- jwells89 3y ago
  Depends on the type of user I think. For totally non-technical, they're never going to be interfacing with any of the under the hood differences anyway… the biggest change for them is going to be using an App Store like package manager UI instead of downloading random exe files. The group that I'd expect to be most likely to stumble with a clone DE is the group that is just technical enough to get themselves in trouble. This group tends to overestimate their own technical capabilities and quickly frustrates when discovering unexpected differences. For this group, yes I'd agree they'd be better off with a more standard "Linuxy" DE.

pjmlp 3y ago

Like fellow commenter, I spend most of my time across Windows, Android (where Linux kernel is an implementation detail), macOS, leaving GNU/Linux for some server deployments and an aging netbook from the glory Netbook days (2009). I had a UNIX zealot phase, starting with Xenix in 1993, used most well known commercial UNIXes since then, started my GNU/Linux travel with Slackware 2.0 in 1995's Summer, bought all Linux Journal issues until they went out of business. Yet by the time Windows 7 came out, I had enough of always making up for Year of Desktop Linux continuous reboots of subsystems, fragmentation and what not, and VMWare did it for me. Like many people that went to OS X for their UNIX fix, for me using GNU/Linux was always a cheap way to have UNIX at home, so anything that does POSIX well enough will do, and it is a pity that we lost Solaris. So Windows, macOS and Android it is.

alsoold 3y ago
You're an old person now. You should try again. Linux is an order of magnitude better than those. It was then too, but maybe in the past decade youll have become more able to appreciate it.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Missing the part that I know perfectly well how GNU/Linux works in modern laptops. There is always something that doesn't quite work, even on System 76, Tuxedo, Framework or Dell XPS 13 devices. Sure GNU/Linux might work perfectly alright on classical desktop hardware, a dying breed outside gaming. Speaking of which, where GNU/Linux needs to emulate Win32 and DirectX to be relevant at all. Not even Android game developers care about GNU/Linux, despite the NDK being about ISO C, ISO C++, GL ES/Vulkan, OpenSL, Open MAX.
  - alsoold 3y ago
    You've got it backwards. Windows has to engage in collusion and buyouts to be relevant.
    - pjmlp 3y ago