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This is such a stereotypical tale: Europe mandated a universal plug for electric vehicles 10 years ago - without having any noteworthy EV manufacturers - in fac

by jcfrei 3y ago

This is such a stereotypical tale: Europe mandated a universal plug for electric vehicles 10 years ago - without having any noteworthy EV manufacturers - in fact most of the big European car companies completely missed the shift to EVs. At the same time in the US the largest EV manufacturer is slowly taking shape without the federal government taking any action at all to standardize chargers. Now it's 2023 - the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, European EV companies still lag behind and the Tesla standard is being adapted by the industry without any government intervention.

irrational 3y ago
If the the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, why does there need to be government intervention? Or, are you saying that the EU was wrong to mandate a standard? They should have waited to see how things shake out?
- jcfrei 3y ago
  No the EU was not wrong to mandate a standard. It was a broad comparison between the European approach (bureaucratic, lots of talk and regulation) versus the American one (just getting things done). For the record, I'm European myself.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    China mandated a standard also...in this case one completely different from Europe or North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard
    - irrational 3y ago
      We need a fourth standard to unite the three! https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Linking xkcd is fun but what would uniting these physical plugs even mean? Very rarely can plugs be combined.
        p1mrx 3y ago
        The connector would look something like https://www.google.com/search?q=pin+art+toy&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=pin+art+toy&tbm=isch
        Smoosh 3y ago
        I was thinking the cable would be https://www.amazon.com.au/Universal-Charging-Compatible-Multiple-Blutooth/dp/B09WTVBRC6 https://www.amazon.com.au/Universal-Charging-Compatible-Mult...
  - matthewdgreen 3y ago
    The US didn’t just get things done, though. We also did a huge government initiative to standardize a connector, including allocating billions to charging networks that adopted it. This connector wasn’t Tesla’s because Tesla’s connector wasn’t open/libre. Tesla opened their (physical) connector after it became obvious that it was either that, or be forced to abandon theirs entirely. Also: as I understand it: NACS is only the physical Tesla connector; the digital elements (protocols etc.) are still CCS. That’s important.
    - irjustin 3y ago
      > We also did a huge government initiative to standardize a connector, including allocating billions to charging networks that adopted it. Butttttt... Tesla was the one to drive all that.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Kbelicius 3y ago
        No they were not. Government allocated billions for building charging networks with connectors that are used by more than one car manufacturer which drove Tesla to open their connector.
dclowd9901 3y ago
I don’t think this says anything about “government v. private industry” as much as “premature optimization is the root of all evil.” Further, Tesla having ignored the European standard completely sort of smacks of manifest destiny. Of course government standards don’t work when people ignore them — doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be standards. Besides is any of this _really_ a problem? Can’t customers buy relatively cheap adapters for NACS chargers if their car isn’t compatible?
- caf 3y ago
  The thing is, Tesla didn't even ignore it: in Type 2 / CCS2 markets, Tesla vehicles from the Model S onwards came with at least native Type 2 AC charging (and from the Model 3 onwards, with CCS2 - there wasn't the physical space in the original S and X). As of the last few years, CCS2 had basically already won in the those markets in the same way that NACS has basically won in North America today. (There is an adjacent issue - in many of these markets three-phase supply in domestic and small business settings is more common than in North America, and the Type 2 AC plug can supply 3 phase).
hedora 3y ago
The US CCS standard that is being abandoned is not the same as the EU standard. Also, the problem with the CCS network isn’t the connectors or charging standard. It’s other stuff, like payment processing and equipment maintenance. There’s no reason to expect non-tesla NACS stations to be any better than the current CCS stations.
- cavisne 3y ago
  The connectors are much bulkier and the cables are stiffer (not sure if the second thing is a design flaw or an implementation flaw). Since all the manufactures want to use superchargers they will be forced to handle payments properly (certificates on the car not a flaky payment terminal on the charger). Should help for third party chargers also.
  - thatfrenchguy 3y ago
    If you’ve ever been at a Tesla charging station in the EU you’d know the cables are, in fact, not stiffer :). Likely what will ship in the US is similar to the EU non-Tesla solution, where you just use their app.
  - pornel 3y ago
    Slimmer cables on superchargers are Tesla being clever and pushing more amps over the cable than the cable is rated for, and monitors when the cable overheats. Everyone else seems to do it by the book and has cables thick enough for their max amperage. BTW, CSS2 supports 3-phase AC charging, which is common in Europe, but not in the US. In this regard NACS would be a downgrade for Europeans.
    - katbyte 3y ago
      Maybe it’s just me but that sounds like a fire/problem waiting to happen if the temperature sensors fail?
      - rootusrootus 3y ago
boplicity 3y ago
You seem to not understand the vast amount of government funding that Tesla has benefited from. It is indeed "government intervention" -- just a different kind.
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  $7500 tax rebate, baby!
  - dopidopHN 3y ago
    Also in the charging station funding.
    - thelastgallon 3y ago
      Tesla built coast-to-coast supercharger network years before any talk of charging station funding. Charging station funding is a subsidy to legacy carmakers, because they don't to spend a penny building charging infrastructure. Let the govt (Us: taxpayers) pay for it. Mary, you electrified the entire auto industry, you led, and it matters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UduPjk9gonw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UduPjk9gonw). At the time of this announcement, GM has zero EVs being sold. President Biden shared a video of himself and General Motors CEO Mary Barra while stating that GM and Ford are building more electric vehicles in America than ever before: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/02/president-biden-hypes-ford-gm-evs-ignores-teslas-clear-leadership/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/02/president-biden-hypes-f... https://electrek.co/2021/11/18/president-biden-gm-ceo-marry-barra-credit-for-electrifying-entire-auto-industry-wrong/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/18/president-biden-gm-ceo-marry-... It is obvious that Govt hates Tesla, it is never mentioned. All the subsidies are for Ford and GM.
  - thelastgallon 3y ago
    Yes, $7500 tax rebate for the 3 and half people that are eligible. The latest version of this rebate has income limits and people within that income are most likely not the people who buy new cars at full price, ICE or EV.
clouddrover 3y ago
> Now it's 2023 - the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, European EV companies still lag behind and the Tesla standard is being adapted by the industry without any government intervention. This is a misunderstanding of the situation. The reality is Europe is a long way ahead of North America on EV infrastructure. The European charging networks are compatible with all EVs because of standardization. More investment has gone into charger manufacturing and charging network deployment because of standardization. You've been able to charge other brands on a Tesla chargers for a long time in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ You can charge your EV on a 400 kW charger from Alpitronic and FastNed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 Or use a 400 kW charger from Kempower and Shell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk Or charge your Volvo truck on a 350 kW Ionity charger. Why not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA Or charge whatever EV on whatever charging network you like. Europe has done EV infrastructure right. And they've got a plan to make it even better: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... In contrast, North America continues to thrash about trying to arrive at a charging standard. It's still going to be years of fiddling around to get anywhere near where Europe already is. The result North America has ended up with is CCS chargers with Tesla's plug on the end. North America could have and should have got to standardization sooner.
- coryrc 3y ago
  The United States is far larger yet completely covered by the Tesla network. Our government handed out so much money to Electrify America and friends, yet their equipment performs poorly and is usually broken. Our government is no longer capable of running projects.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    The EU has 106 chargers per 100,000 people, the USA has 29.
0xcoffee 3y ago
My understanding is that Tesla opened it up, because the US government would fund EV charging stations, as long as they support more than one auto maker? So it's not exactly a government free success story.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rtkwe 3y ago
  The idea of Tesla as a non subsidized company is wild.
  - qualifiedai 3y ago
    They paid their gov loans on time (or early) and with interest. Also getting rid of EV credits would benefit them the most.
    - wmf 3y ago
      Maybe it would benefit them now but they wouldn't exist without those credits. I think the overall system is good and working as intended but let's not pretend subsidies are not subsidies.
      - Jcowell 3y ago
        yeah , loans are just subsidies of time.
    - greesil 3y ago
      Yes, but those tax credits certainly helped get them started. Mad props to Tesla for making a great product, too, but the government subsidies helped.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Loans from taxpayers are still subsidies.
dopidopHN 3y ago
My experience using a non Tesla EV in rural places in Europe is far far better than in the US. Charging station availability is a solved issues, now they are at the payment consolidation and subscription. ( that part is still the Wild West, but it exists ) I live in LA, ( not L.A ) I’ve seen charging station cropping up only this years in non-metro area. Look at a deployment map in rural Spain or France.
- azinman2 3y ago
  Where in Europe did you see so many charging stations? I just drove from Florence to Montalcino and the surrounding areas in Tuscany, and didn’t see a single EV charger. Even gas stations were somewhat rare but at least there.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    Probably not where OP saw them but almost every residential street in my area of London has at least a few.
  - antupis 3y ago
    In Finland there is charging stations in almost every large grocery store and gas station.
  - dopidopHN 3y ago
    France ( rural ) and northern Spain. Switzerland, too. The issue was not finding the station but dealing with bad apps to pay for the electricity. France was the worst for that, there is like 10 competing company. Ok maybe not 10 but I had 5 apps installed for sure.
- killingtime74 3y ago
  LA = Latvia?
  - dopidopHN 3y ago
    Louisiana, USA
irjustin 3y ago
The tone you carry is that this is a bad thing. Why is this a bad thing?
hatsunearu 3y ago
Wow, wonder what other electrical connector standard the EU is making everyone adopt as well?
greggsy 3y ago
It’s actually a really good case study into the way innovation takes shape over time. There’s not much to be told from the ‘sociotechnical’ perspective (users don’t really buy a car because of the way the plug feels or looks), but the regulatory aspect is fascinating. EU we’re well intentioned to regulate a standard as it drives efficiencies across infrastructure and provides some stability for manufacturers who might be nervous about entering an unproven market. However, it’s clear that they introduced it prematurely as the technology and requirements were yet to be ironed out. I would hold that there will be an easy fix to this problem - maybe a drop in replacement to support regional differences, or a power adaptor (similar to the travel adaptor market that supports the current list of 15 odd mains connectors)? At any rate, if the global market does need to be normalised, the transition period will no doubt be slow and somewhat inconvenient, potentially requiring support for multiple standards at both charger and vehicle. Edit: reading through the comments here, it seems that there is an sociotechnical angle in terms of ergonomics, as some cables can be bulky or difficult to handle. (Are they any worse than a bowser handle though, and do people actually have an opportunity to do AB testing in showrooms, which are often catered towards a single brand?)
- stetrain 3y ago
  Europe seems to be doing just fine with their CCS Type 2 connectors and network. Tesla uses the CCS Type 2 connector in that market on all of their cars and chargers. If anything their public charging network is significantly denser and more interoperable than in North America. The US basically failed to achieve a workable public charging network, which has led to Tesla's buildout lead and the current situation where they are opening their connector to become eligible for future federal funding and to bring the other manufacturers on board with their connector and network. I don't think the story of this being a clear cut policy win of US vs EU checks out so cleanly as the commenter above is trying to make it.
jeron 3y ago
EU and over-regulation, name a more iconic duo
adev_ 3y ago
> This is such a stereotypical tale: Europe mandated a universal plug for electric vehicles 10 years ago I would disagree and revert it entirely. Like usual we have a standard CCS2 that is used successfully over multiple country representing over 500 millions people. And like usual, USA goes its own way because a private actor pushes its way through lobbying and force it on everybody. The Tesla connector has nothing Superior. It is thinner, that is its only advantage. - CCS2 supports three phase power AC 22kw which is very useful in Europe. NACS does not. - CCS2 cable are bulky because they respect international norms in term of cable safety. NACS does not, cable are undersized on purpose for cost reasons. - CCS2 is already supporting payment in car. Tesla could simply have adopted that. - We were already having 3 standard. Chademo for Japan, GBT for China and CCS for the rest of the world. Congratulations: now we have 4. Should I quote the appropriate XKCD or should I wait that Liberia and Myanmar uses NACS before doing it ?
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  > CCS2 supports three phase power AC 22kw which is very useful in Europe. NACS does not. CCS1 does not either. > CCS2 cable are bulky because they respect international norms in term of cable safety. NACS does not, cable are undersized on purpose for cost reasons. The cable size is a separate issue from the plug, and the main difference is cooling not safety margins. > CCS2 is already supporting payment in car. Tesla could simply have adopted that. NACS is using CCS1 signalling. > We were already having 3 standard. Chademo for Japan, GBT for China and CCS for the rest of the world. Congratulations: now we have 4. CCS1 is different enough from CCS2 that we already had 4 standards if not 5. Now we have 4.
  - adev_ 3y ago
    > CCS1 does not either. CCS1 is entirely common with CCS2 for DC charging. The rest could have been unified later. > main difference is cooling not safety margins. It is safety margin. The pin are currently undersized for the rated power[1] > NACS is using CCS1 signalling. Which is irrelevant. Because both are still fundamental incompatible. > CCS1 is different enough from CCS2 It is not. The only major difference between both is the presence of the three phase AC. A thing that could have been adapted in future and standardized everywhere world wide. Now we are in the ridiculous situation that an EV will not even be able to charge itself in a neighboring country just because of lobbying bullshit. Tesla already ship car with CCS2 by default in Europe. They could have standardize on that even in USA. They did not for short profits, not for user convenience. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=1441s&pp=ygUEbmFjcw%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=1441s&pp=ygUEbmF...
keyrat 3y ago
Stereotypical? The only other time I can remember that the EU adopted something and it made any noticeable difference was GSM. It was a good five to six years after Europe that text messaging took off because the networks weren’t compatible; it felt like the stone ages.
stetrain 3y ago
The connectors between the North American version of CCS (CCS Type 1) and the European version (CCS Type 2) are different. The NA connector had some clear disadvantages, mainly in its locking mechanism. The NACS standard uses CCS communication protocols. So it's as related to European CCS as CCS Type 1 was. And in Europe Tesla uses CCS Type 2 without any discernible issues. In fact the Tesla/NACS connector would be a significant downgrade for the European market because Europe frequently uses 3-phase AC for charging and Tesla's connector does not have the pins to support that. Tesla opening their connector last year in the US, branding it as the North America charging standard, and working with other manufacturers to get their support was driven by government intervention, namely the Infrastructure Bill which requires use of a charging connector used by multiple brands to be eligible for federal funding to build chargers. I think Tesla's connector is great but you're missing a lot of context in your story.
- 616c 3y ago
  This context you provide is interesting. Where can I read more in this specific perspective?
  - throwawayUS9 3y ago
    I am not the OP. Here's what I found. https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-resources https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-r...
  - stetrain 3y ago
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ccs-vs-nacs-teslas-sneaky-adoption-standard-just-kill-félix-amyot/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ccs-vs-nacs-teslas-sneaky-ado... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nacs-vs-ccs-part-ii-europe-wont-move-f%2525C3%2525A9lix-amyot/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nacs-vs-ccs-part-ii-europe-wo... https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-resources https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-r... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...
- 3y ago
porknubbins 3y ago
Isn’t this a situation like wall outlet jacks that will cause very little real world difficulty? It seems like if all EVs produduced in Europe can be charged in Europe that should be fine. I agree within continent charging should be all the same. Its not like phone charger standards where I might plausibly move abroad and want to bring the device with me.
snotrockets 3y ago
Tell me you aren't familiar with US regulation without telling me etc (Tesla's trying to make their plug the US standard is so they could get US subsidies for their charging infrastructure. If there's something Musk's company excel at, is getting money from the government)
dangus 3y ago
Beyond the issues other commenters have pointed out with your analysis, I would add to that to not conflate the charger network quality with the connector itself. There’s nothing significantly technically superior about Tesla’s connector. Most of what’s superior about owning a Tesla is that the chargers are better maintained and placed in more/better locations. Heck, Electrify America wouldn’t even exist if the VW dieselgate scandal didn’t happen. The problem with CCS isn’t the connector, it’s that most companies who run US charging stations are doing it halfheartedly. I think it’s also in bad taste to have a main point that European-style regulations are inferior to the American laissez-faire system without very much commitment to the facts surrounding why those regulations are supposedly “bad.” I can’t think of many metrics where the US leads Europe in terms of transportation. It seems to me that EU regulations help do things like keep pedestrian deaths and average MPG/emissions lower than the US. Heck, the EU has double the EV adoption rate of the US. I have to think that a universal connector helped EU customers shop with confidence. https://www.statista.com/chart/27431/ev-unit-sales-per-capita-eu-vs-us/ https://www.statista.com/chart/27431/ev-unit-sales-per-capit... What we have right now in the United States are two major incompatible systems which is exactly what the EU avoided in the first place. Even the NACS solution isn’t a full solution because non-Tesla vehicles can’t use older generation superchargers.
the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
> the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard This statement makes little sense. Europe’s standard is CCS2 which Tesla also uses. It’s quite comparable to NACS in features, even does a bit more.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
HWR_14 3y ago
The US government most certainly took action. They told everyone all subsidies for chargers and cars were going to be based on the TBD standard. This caused Tesla to leap into gear to try to get their connector to be the standard, motivating them to make whatever concessions to get everyone to agree to it.

by jcfrei 3y ago

irrational 3y ago

If the the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, why does there need to be government intervention? Or, are you saying that the EU was wrong to mandate a standard? They should have waited to see how things shake out?

jcfrei 3y ago
No the EU was not wrong to mandate a standard. It was a broad comparison between the European approach (bureaucratic, lots of talk and regulation) versus the American one (just getting things done). For the record, I'm European myself.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  China mandated a standard also...in this case one completely different from Europe or North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB/T_charging_standard
  - irrational 3y ago
    We need a fourth standard to unite the three! https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Linking xkcd is fun but what would uniting these physical plugs even mean? Very rarely can plugs be combined.
      - p1mrx 3y ago
        The connector would look something like https://www.google.com/search?q=pin+art+toy&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=pin+art+toy&tbm=isch
        Smoosh 3y ago
        I was thinking the cable would be https://www.amazon.com.au/Universal-Charging-Compatible-Multiple-Blutooth/dp/B09WTVBRC6 https://www.amazon.com.au/Universal-Charging-Compatible-Mult...
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  The US didn’t just get things done, though. We also did a huge government initiative to standardize a connector, including allocating billions to charging networks that adopted it. This connector wasn’t Tesla’s because Tesla’s connector wasn’t open/libre. Tesla opened their (physical) connector after it became obvious that it was either that, or be forced to abandon theirs entirely. Also: as I understand it: NACS is only the physical Tesla connector; the digital elements (protocols etc.) are still CCS. That’s important.
  - irjustin 3y ago
    > We also did a huge government initiative to standardize a connector, including allocating billions to charging networks that adopted it. Butttttt... Tesla was the one to drive all that.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Kbelicius 3y ago
      No they were not. Government allocated billions for building charging networks with connectors that are used by more than one car manufacturer which drove Tesla to open their connector.

dclowd9901 3y ago

I don’t think this says anything about “government v. private industry” as much as “premature optimization is the root of all evil.” Further, Tesla having ignored the European standard completely sort of smacks of manifest destiny. Of course government standards don’t work when people ignore them — doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be standards. Besides is any of this _really_ a problem? Can’t customers buy relatively cheap adapters for NACS chargers if their car isn’t compatible?

caf 3y ago
The thing is, Tesla didn't even ignore it: in Type 2 / CCS2 markets, Tesla vehicles from the Model S onwards came with at least native Type 2 AC charging (and from the Model 3 onwards, with CCS2 - there wasn't the physical space in the original S and X). As of the last few years, CCS2 had basically already won in the those markets in the same way that NACS has basically won in North America today. (There is an adjacent issue - in many of these markets three-phase supply in domestic and small business settings is more common than in North America, and the Type 2 AC plug can supply 3 phase).

hedora 3y ago

The US CCS standard that is being abandoned is not the same as the EU standard. Also, the problem with the CCS network isn’t the connectors or charging standard. It’s other stuff, like payment processing and equipment maintenance. There’s no reason to expect non-tesla NACS stations to be any better than the current CCS stations.

cavisne 3y ago
The connectors are much bulkier and the cables are stiffer (not sure if the second thing is a design flaw or an implementation flaw). Since all the manufactures want to use superchargers they will be forced to handle payments properly (certificates on the car not a flaky payment terminal on the charger). Should help for third party chargers also.
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago
  If you’ve ever been at a Tesla charging station in the EU you’d know the cables are, in fact, not stiffer :). Likely what will ship in the US is similar to the EU non-Tesla solution, where you just use their app.
- pornel 3y ago
  Slimmer cables on superchargers are Tesla being clever and pushing more amps over the cable than the cable is rated for, and monitors when the cable overheats. Everyone else seems to do it by the book and has cables thick enough for their max amperage. BTW, CSS2 supports 3-phase AC charging, which is common in Europe, but not in the US. In this regard NACS would be a downgrade for Europeans.
  - katbyte 3y ago
    Maybe it’s just me but that sounds like a fire/problem waiting to happen if the temperature sensors fail?
    - rootusrootus 3y ago

boplicity 3y ago

You seem to not understand the vast amount of government funding that Tesla has benefited from. It is indeed "government intervention" -- just a different kind.

DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
$7500 tax rebate, baby!
- dopidopHN 3y ago
  Also in the charging station funding.
  - thelastgallon 3y ago
    Tesla built coast-to-coast supercharger network years before any talk of charging station funding. Charging station funding is a subsidy to legacy carmakers, because they don't to spend a penny building charging infrastructure. Let the govt (Us: taxpayers) pay for it. Mary, you electrified the entire auto industry, you led, and it matters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UduPjk9gonw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UduPjk9gonw). At the time of this announcement, GM has zero EVs being sold. President Biden shared a video of himself and General Motors CEO Mary Barra while stating that GM and Ford are building more electric vehicles in America than ever before: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/02/president-biden-hypes-ford-gm-evs-ignores-teslas-clear-leadership/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/02/president-biden-hypes-f... https://electrek.co/2021/11/18/president-biden-gm-ceo-marry-barra-credit-for-electrifying-entire-auto-industry-wrong/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/18/president-biden-gm-ceo-marry-... It is obvious that Govt hates Tesla, it is never mentioned. All the subsidies are for Ford and GM.
- thelastgallon 3y ago
  Yes, $7500 tax rebate for the 3 and half people that are eligible. The latest version of this rebate has income limits and people within that income are most likely not the people who buy new cars at full price, ICE or EV.

clouddrover 3y ago

> Now it's 2023 - the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard, European EV companies still lag behind and the Tesla standard is being adapted by the industry without any government intervention. This is a misunderstanding of the situation. The reality is Europe is a long way ahead of North America on EV infrastructure. The European charging networks are compatible with all EVs because of standardization. More investment has gone into charger manufacturing and charging network deployment because of standardization. You've been able to charge other brands on a Tesla chargers for a long time in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ You can charge your EV on a 400 kW charger from Alpitronic and FastNed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4ZWN_-a2j4 Or use a 400 kW charger from Kempower and Shell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2M5W6saAk Or charge your Volvo truck on a 350 kW Ionity charger. Why not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA Or charge whatever EV on whatever charging network you like. Europe has done EV infrastructure right. And they've got a plan to make it even better: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... In contrast, North America continues to thrash about trying to arrive at a charging standard. It's still going to be years of fiddling around to get anywhere near where Europe already is. The result North America has ended up with is CCS chargers with Tesla's plug on the end. North America could have and should have got to standardization sooner.

coryrc 3y ago
The United States is far larger yet completely covered by the Tesla network. Our government handed out so much money to Electrify America and friends, yet their equipment performs poorly and is usually broken. Our government is no longer capable of running projects.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  The EU has 106 chargers per 100,000 people, the USA has 29.

0xcoffee 3y ago

My understanding is that Tesla opened it up, because the US government would fund EV charging stations, as long as they support more than one auto maker? So it's not exactly a government free success story.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rtkwe 3y ago
The idea of Tesla as a non subsidized company is wild.
- qualifiedai 3y ago
  They paid their gov loans on time (or early) and with interest. Also getting rid of EV credits would benefit them the most.
  - wmf 3y ago
    Maybe it would benefit them now but they wouldn't exist without those credits. I think the overall system is good and working as intended but let's not pretend subsidies are not subsidies.
    - Jcowell 3y ago
      yeah , loans are just subsidies of time.
  - greesil 3y ago
    Yes, but those tax credits certainly helped get them started. Mad props to Tesla for making a great product, too, but the government subsidies helped.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Loans from taxpayers are still subsidies.

dopidopHN 3y ago

My experience using a non Tesla EV in rural places in Europe is far far better than in the US. Charging station availability is a solved issues, now they are at the payment consolidation and subscription. ( that part is still the Wild West, but it exists ) I live in LA, ( not L.A ) I’ve seen charging station cropping up only this years in non-metro area. Look at a deployment map in rural Spain or France.

azinman2 3y ago
Where in Europe did you see so many charging stations? I just drove from Florence to Montalcino and the surrounding areas in Tuscany, and didn’t see a single EV charger. Even gas stations were somewhat rare but at least there.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  Probably not where OP saw them but almost every residential street in my area of London has at least a few.
- antupis 3y ago
  In Finland there is charging stations in almost every large grocery store and gas station.
- dopidopHN 3y ago
  France ( rural ) and northern Spain. Switzerland, too. The issue was not finding the station but dealing with bad apps to pay for the electricity. France was the worst for that, there is like 10 competing company. Ok maybe not 10 but I had 5 apps installed for sure.
killingtime74 3y ago
LA = Latvia?
- dopidopHN 3y ago
  Louisiana, USA

irjustin 3y ago

The tone you carry is that this is a bad thing. Why is this a bad thing?

hatsunearu 3y ago

Wow, wonder what other electrical connector standard the EU is making everyone adopt as well?

greggsy 3y ago

It’s actually a really good case study into the way innovation takes shape over time. There’s not much to be told from the ‘sociotechnical’ perspective (users don’t really buy a car because of the way the plug feels or looks), but the regulatory aspect is fascinating. EU we’re well intentioned to regulate a standard as it drives efficiencies across infrastructure and provides some stability for manufacturers who might be nervous about entering an unproven market. However, it’s clear that they introduced it prematurely as the technology and requirements were yet to be ironed out. I would hold that there will be an easy fix to this problem - maybe a drop in replacement to support regional differences, or a power adaptor (similar to the travel adaptor market that supports the current list of 15 odd mains connectors)? At any rate, if the global market does need to be normalised, the transition period will no doubt be slow and somewhat inconvenient, potentially requiring support for multiple standards at both charger and vehicle. Edit: reading through the comments here, it seems that there is an sociotechnical angle in terms of ergonomics, as some cables can be bulky or difficult to handle. (Are they any worse than a bowser handle though, and do people actually have an opportunity to do AB testing in showrooms, which are often catered towards a single brand?)

stetrain 3y ago
Europe seems to be doing just fine with their CCS Type 2 connectors and network. Tesla uses the CCS Type 2 connector in that market on all of their cars and chargers. If anything their public charging network is significantly denser and more interoperable than in North America. The US basically failed to achieve a workable public charging network, which has led to Tesla's buildout lead and the current situation where they are opening their connector to become eligible for future federal funding and to bring the other manufacturers on board with their connector and network. I don't think the story of this being a clear cut policy win of US vs EU checks out so cleanly as the commenter above is trying to make it.

jeron 3y ago

EU and over-regulation, name a more iconic duo

adev_ 3y ago

> This is such a stereotypical tale: Europe mandated a universal plug for electric vehicles 10 years ago I would disagree and revert it entirely. Like usual we have a standard CCS2 that is used successfully over multiple country representing over 500 millions people. And like usual, USA goes its own way because a private actor pushes its way through lobbying and force it on everybody. The Tesla connector has nothing Superior. It is thinner, that is its only advantage. - CCS2 supports three phase power AC 22kw which is very useful in Europe. NACS does not. - CCS2 cable are bulky because they respect international norms in term of cable safety. NACS does not, cable are undersized on purpose for cost reasons. - CCS2 is already supporting payment in car. Tesla could simply have adopted that. - We were already having 3 standard. Chademo for Japan, GBT for China and CCS for the rest of the world. Congratulations: now we have 4. Should I quote the appropriate XKCD or should I wait that Liberia and Myanmar uses NACS before doing it ?

Dylan16807 3y ago
> CCS2 supports three phase power AC 22kw which is very useful in Europe. NACS does not. CCS1 does not either. > CCS2 cable are bulky because they respect international norms in term of cable safety. NACS does not, cable are undersized on purpose for cost reasons. The cable size is a separate issue from the plug, and the main difference is cooling not safety margins. > CCS2 is already supporting payment in car. Tesla could simply have adopted that. NACS is using CCS1 signalling. > We were already having 3 standard. Chademo for Japan, GBT for China and CCS for the rest of the world. Congratulations: now we have 4. CCS1 is different enough from CCS2 that we already had 4 standards if not 5. Now we have 4.
- adev_ 3y ago
  > CCS1 does not either. CCS1 is entirely common with CCS2 for DC charging. The rest could have been unified later. > main difference is cooling not safety margins. It is safety margin. The pin are currently undersized for the rated power[1] > NACS is using CCS1 signalling. Which is irrelevant. Because both are still fundamental incompatible. > CCS1 is different enough from CCS2 It is not. The only major difference between both is the presence of the three phase AC. A thing that could have been adapted in future and standardized everywhere world wide. Now we are in the ridiculous situation that an EV will not even be able to charge itself in a neighboring country just because of lobbying bullshit. Tesla already ship car with CCS2 by default in Europe. They could have standardize on that even in USA. They did not for short profits, not for user convenience. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=1441s&pp=ygUEbmFjcw%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJOfyMCEzjQ&t=1441s&pp=ygUEbmF...

keyrat 3y ago

Stereotypical? The only other time I can remember that the EU adopted something and it made any noticeable difference was GSM. It was a good five to six years after Europe that text messaging took off because the networks weren’t compatible; it felt like the stone ages.

stetrain 3y ago

The connectors between the North American version of CCS (CCS Type 1) and the European version (CCS Type 2) are different. The NA connector had some clear disadvantages, mainly in its locking mechanism. The NACS standard uses CCS communication protocols. So it's as related to European CCS as CCS Type 1 was. And in Europe Tesla uses CCS Type 2 without any discernible issues. In fact the Tesla/NACS connector would be a significant downgrade for the European market because Europe frequently uses 3-phase AC for charging and Tesla's connector does not have the pins to support that. Tesla opening their connector last year in the US, branding it as the North America charging standard, and working with other manufacturers to get their support was driven by government intervention, namely the Infrastructure Bill which requires use of a charging connector used by multiple brands to be eligible for federal funding to build chargers. I think Tesla's connector is great but you're missing a lot of context in your story.

616c 3y ago
This context you provide is interesting. Where can I read more in this specific perspective?
- throwawayUS9 3y ago
  I am not the OP. Here's what I found. https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-resources https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-r...
- stetrain 3y ago
  https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ccs-vs-nacs-teslas-sneaky-adoption-standard-just-kill-félix-amyot/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ccs-vs-nacs-teslas-sneaky-ado... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nacs-vs-ccs-part-ii-europe-wont-move-f%2525C3%2525A9lix-amyot/ https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nacs-vs-ccs-part-ii-europe-wo... https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-resources https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/product-guides#NACS-r... https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...
3y ago

porknubbins 3y ago

Isn’t this a situation like wall outlet jacks that will cause very little real world difficulty? It seems like if all EVs produduced in Europe can be charged in Europe that should be fine. I agree within continent charging should be all the same. Its not like phone charger standards where I might plausibly move abroad and want to bring the device with me.

snotrockets 3y ago

Tell me you aren't familiar with US regulation without telling me etc (Tesla's trying to make their plug the US standard is so they could get US subsidies for their charging infrastructure. If there's something Musk's company excel at, is getting money from the government)

dangus 3y ago

Beyond the issues other commenters have pointed out with your analysis, I would add to that to not conflate the charger network quality with the connector itself. There’s nothing significantly technically superior about Tesla’s connector. Most of what’s superior about owning a Tesla is that the chargers are better maintained and placed in more/better locations. Heck, Electrify America wouldn’t even exist if the VW dieselgate scandal didn’t happen. The problem with CCS isn’t the connector, it’s that most companies who run US charging stations are doing it halfheartedly. I think it’s also in bad taste to have a main point that European-style regulations are inferior to the American laissez-faire system without very much commitment to the facts surrounding why those regulations are supposedly “bad.” I can’t think of many metrics where the US leads Europe in terms of transportation. It seems to me that EU regulations help do things like keep pedestrian deaths and average MPG/emissions lower than the US. Heck, the EU has double the EV adoption rate of the US. I have to think that a universal connector helped EU customers shop with confidence. https://www.statista.com/chart/27431/ev-unit-sales-per-capita-eu-vs-us/ https://www.statista.com/chart/27431/ev-unit-sales-per-capit... What we have right now in the United States are two major incompatible systems which is exactly what the EU avoided in the first place. Even the NACS solution isn’t a full solution because non-Tesla vehicles can’t use older generation superchargers.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

> the Tesla connector is superior to the European standard This statement makes little sense. Europe’s standard is CCS2 which Tesla also uses. It’s quite comparable to NACS in features, even does a bit more.

deleted 3y ago

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HWR_14 3y ago

The US government most certainly took action. They told everyone all subsidies for chargers and cars were going to be based on the TBD standard. This caused Tesla to leap into gear to try to get their connector to be the standard, motivating them to make whatever concessions to get everyone to agree to it.