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We use this process, and it has helped us hire some great developers without having to use third party staffing and headhunters: 1. Post well written job post

We use this process, and it has helped us hire some great developers without having to use third party staffing and headhunters: 1. Post well written job post on major job boards. 2. Immediately reply via text to every applicant (yes, we have opt in on the application) 3. Initial screening including several knock-out questions via text. Immediately let candidate know if they are not selected and why. 4. 30 minute can you write a working function from requirements code test. Allow one re-try. Immediately let candidate know if they are not selected and why. 5. Interview and code review session. Bring a side project, show us how it works. 6. Offers out. 7. Background checks start in parallel with on-boarding. First week is spent with business unit teams to learn what the company actually, really does. 8. End of first week, we occasionally have to let someone go on background issues. Otherwise, week 2 is first week coding, expect a working pull request by end of week. All candidates informed position is filled, ask if they would like to be alerted if similar job opens. Works like a champ. Helps we write software that does this. Average developer tenure is two years, company is three years old. We write telecom software that does texting, voice and video interviews.

bobobob420 3y ago
"Bring a side project, show us how it works." Can people in the industry stop this please? You have to be mentally sick to ask people to code review their side projects. It doesn't make any sense. "Average developer tenure is two years, company is three years old." Got it. I don't think this statement says what you think it does.
- lmarcos 3y ago
  Agree. Interviews taken into account side projects are biased towards: - people who have free time to work on side projects (usually young people have more free time than people with families) - people who don't mind sharing their code with others - people who work on interesting side projects. If your side project is boring, that will probably bore your interviewers -> no offer - people who work on side projects on regular basis. If I get to work on one side project every year, well, chances are I may have forgotten the hell I did on that project (depending when the interview takes place). If I work on side projects constantly, I have no trouble picking up a fresh one to talk about
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > people who work on interesting side projects. If your side project is boring, that will probably bore your interviewers -> no offer This hasn't been my experience at all. The interviewer doesn't care how "interesting" the side project is. What they want to see is what your actual working code is like, that you demonstrate a good grasp of programming concepts, etc.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      I wouldn't be worried about boring my interviewer and getting rejected because they consciously recognized that they were bored, I'd be worried about there not being a level playing field between projects when the hiring committee is discussing it later. The guy who built the fun video game will probably be remembered more fondly than the guy who built the CLI tool for tracking the weather.
  - fnimick 3y ago
    > people who have free time to work on side projects (usually young people have more free time than people with families) That's the whole point. Companies would always prefer someone with no responsibility who can be guilted and pressured into doing overtime over someone who can point to actual needs outside of work that they need to attend to. It's a great way of filtering out people who will have boundaries.
- yreg 3y ago
  > You have to be mentally sick to ask people to code review their side projects. Could you expand why? We allow people to substitute a tech interview round with side project showcase. Don't see why it doesn't make sense in your view. > "Average developer tenure is two years, company is three years old." Got it. I don't think this statement says what you think it does. So what does it say?
  - lolinder 3y ago
    > Could you expand why? We allow people to substitute a tech interview round with side project showcase. Don't see why it doesn't make sense in your view. As an option to replace a different interview segment I think that's quite fair. But both choices have to be clearly presented to the interviewee, and they should understand that either option is treated as equally good. OP's interview format seems to assume that everyone does the side project and the tech interview round isn't an option.
  - ikura 3y ago
    > So what does it say? It depends on the definition of tenure... if tenure is defined as a closed interval (i.e. defined only for developers who've joined and then left) then it means that, of the developers who have departed, none had wanted to grow with the company, or the company had let them go. For a startup company this might not be a good sign. If tenure is defined as the length of time the developer had worked, OR, has worked so far, then it means they have a core group of developers and aren't growing the development team particularly quickly. Again, this might not be a good sign for a startup.
    - yreg 3y ago
      > then it means that, of the developers who have departed, none had wanted to grow with the company, or the company had let them go. For a startup company this might not be a good sign. What. Of course that "of the developers who have departed" all have left/been fired, that's a tautology. How is it "not a good sign"? Or is it supposed to be a bad sign that there even is a person who is not working there anymore?
- CharlieDigital 3y ago
  > You have to be mentally sick to ask people to code review their side projects. I would love to do this; it would give me an opportunity to showcase my side projects, my coding style, and all with code that I'm already familiar with. It would be great, IMO.
joeframbach 3y ago
I can bring my kids in but I don't think I could tell you how they work. I've been in this industry for almost 20 years, but I don't have side projects, because, well, see above.
- farhanhubble 3y ago
  Agreed not everyone has side projects. But being asked to build something of your own interest in about half a day seems like a good alternative.
  - wombat-man 3y ago
    I don't know what I could do in half a day that would impress anyone. Especially if other candidates are bringing in their serious side projects.
- xwdv 3y ago
  Freelancers can quickly build out some side projects for you to use on your resume if you wish. It shouldn’t be a big deal.
  - gustavus 3y ago
    That seems super dishonest and the kind of thing that would get you in big trouble if discovered. Hell if you're going to lie like that might as well lie on your whole resume.
    - xwdv 3y ago
      There is zero chance of being discovered. You pay your freelancer, own the project, throw it up on your GitHub, no one will ever know. Meanwhile, you get to spend more time with your kids.
- adastra22 3y ago
  Which is why this is a dog whistle for ageism.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
So you have someone start before you've decided to hire them. This sounds incredibly sleezy.
- hondo77 3y ago
  Sounds incredibly like a non-starter for people who aren't completely desperate. Then again, maybe that's who they're looking for.
  - P_I_Staker 3y ago
    It's bizarre to do with background checking specifically. Like WTF, you're gonna have someone come in and then fire them because of their past. I thought it was bad enough these people trying to get you to start as soon as you clear HR. I'd never even thought about the idea of starting before getting the greenlight... this is insanity.
ziddoap 3y ago
It's great that you quickly notify candidates if they aren't a fit! Wish more people did that. But.... >Bring a side project, show us how it works. What do you do if someone doesn't have a side project (or want their side project to be reviewed by someone they don't know)? Some people code to live, not live to code.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I'm not defending the practice of requiring that a side project be presented. I think that's over the top and wouldn't do it -- however, if a candidate volunteers one, that does give a huge advantage to that candidate. > Some people code to live, not live to code. Totally fair. But there are lots of companies who prefer people who code because they love coding over those that do it just for the paycheck, and that's also totally fair.
  - el_benhameen 3y ago
    I don’t think this was intentional, but you missed the third category: people who love to write code but only have time to do it for the paycheck.
    - fnimick 3y ago
      Oh, I think it is very intentional, and the whole point is to not say it out loud. If you don't have time to code for "love", you won't have time to jump at unreasonable requests and pull tons of crunch time overtime either. Given the choice, companies would love to hire someone with no responsibilities outside of work, this is just a legal way of filtering out parents, people with dependents etc
      - signatoremo 3y ago
        > If you don't have time to code for "love", you won't have time to jump at unreasonable requests and pull tons of crunch time overtime either. As opposed to doing leetcode? when you also have to spend time outside of work to practice and memorize them? If you are looking for a new job, you have to invest time and effort. One way or another. Unless you are a known quality. Can you suggest a fair way to evaluate a candidate?
lotsoweiners 3y ago
> 7. Background checks start in parallel with on-boarding. First week is spent with business unit teams to learn what the company actually, really does. Yikes!!! I’ve never heard of a potential employer giving offers before background check. Do you tell candidates this before they quit their current jobs?
- voiceblue 3y ago
  Exactly. A lot can unexpectedly go wrong during a background check, some companies ask employees for (very old) W2's they may not have, etc. There was a time when I worked at <redacted> and a new co-worker suddenly disappeared without a trace, and I was told in confidence by a VP they "were not who they said they were" which I presume means they failed a background check. This was during growing pains, they were probably doing checks after hiring.
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    > "were not who they said they were" I worked with a guy who it later came out that he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder when he convinced a buddy of his to kill his ex-wife and her new boyfriend. Probably should have had better background checks at that company.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    …why would you need an old W2?
    - reidjs 3y ago
      People lie about job history
      - indymike 3y ago
        There's a school of thought around comp where what someone's made in the past should inform what you offer in the future. Some use comp history as an indicator of quality. Some use it as guidance for making sure they don't offer too much.
francisofascii 3y ago
> we occasionally have to let someone go on background issues What kind of issue would that be?
- klinquist 3y ago
  Undisclosed felonies is a popular one.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    Had they disclosed the felony would they have made it that far?
    - klinquist 3y ago
      I have heard of employers allowing you to explain them, yes. Example: Felony DUI: explain your remediation steps, AA, etc.
    - mywittyname 3y ago
      Maybe. But they definitely should have brought it up before accepting the offer. Embezzlement or something? Probably a no-go, especially if you are anywhere near money. There's a whole host of crimes out there that you could have committed and be hired after. But the opportunity to explain yourself looks much better if you do it before accepting the offer.
- hondo77 3y ago
  Not having a side project going on in the background.
oofta-boofta 3y ago
[dead]
sithlord 3y ago
>5. Interview and code review session. Bring a side project, show us how it works. So you are filtering out candidates that have families or lives outside of work that do not spend their free time coding?
- dmoy 3y ago
  Yes that is precisely what happens here. It's intentional. It also doesn't scale up high enough, because the pool of candidates is smaller. It's a big part of why you won't see large companies hiring this way, typically. The other big part is that big companies have lawyers who see potential for lawsuits due to discrimination.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Same thing leetcode does tbh
droptablemain 3y ago
Are you hiring now? :)
onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
AI could do code review better than coding. 90% of code review is BS - and AI excels at BS.
flashgordon 3y ago
Here is a dark side of side projects (pun unintended). I went to an interview which was a nodejs shop. I was excited as they wanted to see a side project. Most of mine are just things I do for fun. Anyway it was in golang (with lots of control plane like features for a "fun" saas offering). Cto wasnt happy that I had chosen go and wanted to know why I hadn't chosen Node instead. (Never mind my Fe was in typescript). He wasnt happy with any of my explanations and came back with retorts like "well you have async/await so you don't really need goroutines). First of all nobody should be forced to be judged on side projects alone. There are several talented "family folks" out there. And even if not there are enough "recharge on my time " folks which is totally fair. Secondly just like in leetcoding interview all it takes is an inexperienced interviewer with a script to degrade the experience!
- itronitron 3y ago
  Yeah, I provided a side project once during an interview process and the only feedback I got related to my use of the 'static' keyword and how that could introduce an undesirable side effect when deploying into a web server (or something like that.) Not sure where they got the idea that the side project would ever be used in that way, unless they were trying to do that themselves.
- bojo 3y ago
  Yeesh, sounds like you dodged a huge bullet. What an insanely narrow minded individual. I want to see good engineering practices, I might be curious about your language decision, but I'd never tear you apart for your choice.
  - smegsicle 3y ago
    right, and i even explained that node was for single-language simpletons, but he didn't like that either
Tao3300 3y ago
> Bring a side project, show us how it works. "As you can see, it's based on a I-IV-V chord progression..." "Usually I try to take advantage of the negative space, but it's not cheating to add a little white gouache in spots like this..." "...and here you can see that I did more than 12 reps, so next time I'll up the weight." "When she makes that face she might be pooping. If you ask her and she says 'HHHNNNNNO!' she's trying to hold it in, so bring her knees up like so..."
devwastaken 3y ago
In the U.S. you'd get title IX'd eventually. All feedback will be used against the company. This is why leetcode was spawned, to weed out the 99% in a way where nobody can claim discrimination. The last 1% can be picked with discrimination by failing the undesired candidates, the "not a culture fit".
ilc 3y ago
I fail at #5. Most all the coding I do is for the firm I work for, occasionally some of it escapes to the open source world if I can convince some manager to let it. At the end of the day, if I've wrung out all I got, that's all there is. It is best to recharge and get ready for the next day. I've written some pretty cool stuff. But often the code isn't 1/4 of what is interesting about what got written :)
vunderba 3y ago
Man, I forgot how much people on hacker news absolutely hate the idea of side projects, a.k.a. passion for engineering and an interest in creating new things. Somehow the implication is that if you build even one little side project for fun that means that you spend every single hour of your time coding. It's such a reductio ad absurdum argument. If I was hiring an architect, I'd expect to see samples of their work. If I was hiring an artist, I'd expect them to have a portfolio on Behance or Artstation. etc. etc.
- popularonion 3y ago
  It sounds like you have the mentality that everybody must be a front end developer. I work in a domain that's very much not front end development, I've participated in interview rounds for at least 100 different candidates, I don't think I've seen "side projects" ever be a factor in someone getting hired, not even once. The one thing that did put an applicant way ahead of the pack was contributing to open source projects relevant to our domain. It didn't have to be anything super duper impressive, we just liked to see a history of submitting meaningful PRs and getting them through code review.

bobobob420 3y ago

"Bring a side project, show us how it works." Can people in the industry stop this please? You have to be mentally sick to ask people to code review their side projects. It doesn't make any sense. "Average developer tenure is two years, company is three years old." Got it. I don't think this statement says what you think it does.

lmarcos 3y ago
Agree. Interviews taken into account side projects are biased towards: - people who have free time to work on side projects (usually young people have more free time than people with families) - people who don't mind sharing their code with others - people who work on interesting side projects. If your side project is boring, that will probably bore your interviewers -> no offer - people who work on side projects on regular basis. If I get to work on one side project every year, well, chances are I may have forgotten the hell I did on that project (depending when the interview takes place). If I work on side projects constantly, I have no trouble picking up a fresh one to talk about
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > people who work on interesting side projects. If your side project is boring, that will probably bore your interviewers -> no offer This hasn't been my experience at all. The interviewer doesn't care how "interesting" the side project is. What they want to see is what your actual working code is like, that you demonstrate a good grasp of programming concepts, etc.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    I wouldn't be worried about boring my interviewer and getting rejected because they consciously recognized that they were bored, I'd be worried about there not being a level playing field between projects when the hiring committee is discussing it later. The guy who built the fun video game will probably be remembered more fondly than the guy who built the CLI tool for tracking the weather.
- fnimick 3y ago
  > people who have free time to work on side projects (usually young people have more free time than people with families) That's the whole point. Companies would always prefer someone with no responsibility who can be guilted and pressured into doing overtime over someone who can point to actual needs outside of work that they need to attend to. It's a great way of filtering out people who will have boundaries.
yreg 3y ago
> You have to be mentally sick to ask people to code review their side projects. Could you expand why? We allow people to substitute a tech interview round with side project showcase. Don't see why it doesn't make sense in your view. > "Average developer tenure is two years, company is three years old." Got it. I don't think this statement says what you think it does. So what does it say?
- lolinder 3y ago
  > Could you expand why? We allow people to substitute a tech interview round with side project showcase. Don't see why it doesn't make sense in your view. As an option to replace a different interview segment I think that's quite fair. But both choices have to be clearly presented to the interviewee, and they should understand that either option is treated as equally good. OP's interview format seems to assume that everyone does the side project and the tech interview round isn't an option.
- ikura 3y ago
  > So what does it say? It depends on the definition of tenure... if tenure is defined as a closed interval (i.e. defined only for developers who've joined and then left) then it means that, of the developers who have departed, none had wanted to grow with the company, or the company had let them go. For a startup company this might not be a good sign. If tenure is defined as the length of time the developer had worked, OR, has worked so far, then it means they have a core group of developers and aren't growing the development team particularly quickly. Again, this might not be a good sign for a startup.
  - yreg 3y ago
    > then it means that, of the developers who have departed, none had wanted to grow with the company, or the company had let them go. For a startup company this might not be a good sign. What. Of course that "of the developers who have departed" all have left/been fired, that's a tautology. How is it "not a good sign"? Or is it supposed to be a bad sign that there even is a person who is not working there anymore?
CharlieDigital 3y ago
> You have to be mentally sick to ask people to code review their side projects. I would love to do this; it would give me an opportunity to showcase my side projects, my coding style, and all with code that I'm already familiar with. It would be great, IMO.

joeframbach 3y ago

I can bring my kids in but I don't think I could tell you how they work. I've been in this industry for almost 20 years, but I don't have side projects, because, well, see above.

farhanhubble 3y ago
Agreed not everyone has side projects. But being asked to build something of your own interest in about half a day seems like a good alternative.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  I don't know what I could do in half a day that would impress anyone. Especially if other candidates are bringing in their serious side projects.
xwdv 3y ago
Freelancers can quickly build out some side projects for you to use on your resume if you wish. It shouldn’t be a big deal.
- gustavus 3y ago
  That seems super dishonest and the kind of thing that would get you in big trouble if discovered. Hell if you're going to lie like that might as well lie on your whole resume.
  - xwdv 3y ago
    There is zero chance of being discovered. You pay your freelancer, own the project, throw it up on your GitHub, no one will ever know. Meanwhile, you get to spend more time with your kids.
adastra22 3y ago
Which is why this is a dog whistle for ageism.

P_I_Staker 3y ago

So you have someone start before you've decided to hire them. This sounds incredibly sleezy.

hondo77 3y ago
Sounds incredibly like a non-starter for people who aren't completely desperate. Then again, maybe that's who they're looking for.
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  It's bizarre to do with background checking specifically. Like WTF, you're gonna have someone come in and then fire them because of their past. I thought it was bad enough these people trying to get you to start as soon as you clear HR. I'd never even thought about the idea of starting before getting the greenlight... this is insanity.

ziddoap 3y ago

It's great that you quickly notify candidates if they aren't a fit! Wish more people did that. But.... >Bring a side project, show us how it works. What do you do if someone doesn't have a side project (or want their side project to be reviewed by someone they don't know)? Some people code to live, not live to code.

JohnFen 3y ago
I'm not defending the practice of requiring that a side project be presented. I think that's over the top and wouldn't do it -- however, if a candidate volunteers one, that does give a huge advantage to that candidate. > Some people code to live, not live to code. Totally fair. But there are lots of companies who prefer people who code because they love coding over those that do it just for the paycheck, and that's also totally fair.
- el_benhameen 3y ago
  I don’t think this was intentional, but you missed the third category: people who love to write code but only have time to do it for the paycheck.
  - fnimick 3y ago
    Oh, I think it is very intentional, and the whole point is to not say it out loud. If you don't have time to code for "love", you won't have time to jump at unreasonable requests and pull tons of crunch time overtime either. Given the choice, companies would love to hire someone with no responsibilities outside of work, this is just a legal way of filtering out parents, people with dependents etc
    - signatoremo 3y ago
      > If you don't have time to code for "love", you won't have time to jump at unreasonable requests and pull tons of crunch time overtime either. As opposed to doing leetcode? when you also have to spend time outside of work to practice and memorize them? If you are looking for a new job, you have to invest time and effort. One way or another. Unless you are a known quality. Can you suggest a fair way to evaluate a candidate?

lotsoweiners 3y ago

> 7. Background checks start in parallel with on-boarding. First week is spent with business unit teams to learn what the company actually, really does. Yikes!!! I’ve never heard of a potential employer giving offers before background check. Do you tell candidates this before they quit their current jobs?

voiceblue 3y ago
Exactly. A lot can unexpectedly go wrong during a background check, some companies ask employees for (very old) W2's they may not have, etc. There was a time when I worked at <redacted> and a new co-worker suddenly disappeared without a trace, and I was told in confidence by a VP they "were not who they said they were" which I presume means they failed a background check. This was during growing pains, they were probably doing checks after hiring.
- lamontcg 3y ago
  > "were not who they said they were" I worked with a guy who it later came out that he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder when he convinced a buddy of his to kill his ex-wife and her new boyfriend. Probably should have had better background checks at that company.
- adastra22 3y ago
  …why would you need an old W2?
  - reidjs 3y ago
    People lie about job history
    - indymike 3y ago
      There's a school of thought around comp where what someone's made in the past should inform what you offer in the future. Some use comp history as an indicator of quality. Some use it as guidance for making sure they don't offer too much.

francisofascii 3y ago

> we occasionally have to let someone go on background issues What kind of issue would that be?

klinquist 3y ago
Undisclosed felonies is a popular one.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
  Had they disclosed the felony would they have made it that far?
  - klinquist 3y ago
    I have heard of employers allowing you to explain them, yes. Example: Felony DUI: explain your remediation steps, AA, etc.
  - mywittyname 3y ago
    Maybe. But they definitely should have brought it up before accepting the offer. Embezzlement or something? Probably a no-go, especially if you are anywhere near money. There's a whole host of crimes out there that you could have committed and be hired after. But the opportunity to explain yourself looks much better if you do it before accepting the offer.
hondo77 3y ago
Not having a side project going on in the background.

oofta-boofta 3y ago

[dead]

sithlord 3y ago

>5. Interview and code review session. Bring a side project, show us how it works. So you are filtering out candidates that have families or lives outside of work that do not spend their free time coding?

dmoy 3y ago
Yes that is precisely what happens here. It's intentional. It also doesn't scale up high enough, because the pool of candidates is smaller. It's a big part of why you won't see large companies hiring this way, typically. The other big part is that big companies have lawyers who see potential for lawsuits due to discrimination.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Same thing leetcode does tbh

droptablemain 3y ago

Are you hiring now? :)

onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago

AI could do code review better than coding. 90% of code review is BS - and AI excels at BS.

flashgordon 3y ago

Here is a dark side of side projects (pun unintended). I went to an interview which was a nodejs shop. I was excited as they wanted to see a side project. Most of mine are just things I do for fun. Anyway it was in golang (with lots of control plane like features for a "fun" saas offering). Cto wasnt happy that I had chosen go and wanted to know why I hadn't chosen Node instead. (Never mind my Fe was in typescript). He wasnt happy with any of my explanations and came back with retorts like "well you have async/await so you don't really need goroutines). First of all nobody should be forced to be judged on side projects alone. There are several talented "family folks" out there. And even if not there are enough "recharge on my time " folks which is totally fair. Secondly just like in leetcoding interview all it takes is an inexperienced interviewer with a script to degrade the experience!

itronitron 3y ago
Yeah, I provided a side project once during an interview process and the only feedback I got related to my use of the 'static' keyword and how that could introduce an undesirable side effect when deploying into a web server (or something like that.) Not sure where they got the idea that the side project would ever be used in that way, unless they were trying to do that themselves.
bojo 3y ago
Yeesh, sounds like you dodged a huge bullet. What an insanely narrow minded individual. I want to see good engineering practices, I might be curious about your language decision, but I'd never tear you apart for your choice.
- smegsicle 3y ago
  right, and i even explained that node was for single-language simpletons, but he didn't like that either

Tao3300 3y ago

> Bring a side project, show us how it works. "As you can see, it's based on a I-IV-V chord progression..." "Usually I try to take advantage of the negative space, but it's not cheating to add a little white gouache in spots like this..." "...and here you can see that I did more than 12 reps, so next time I'll up the weight." "When she makes that face she might be pooping. If you ask her and she says 'HHHNNNNNO!' she's trying to hold it in, so bring her knees up like so..."

devwastaken 3y ago

In the U.S. you'd get title IX'd eventually. All feedback will be used against the company. This is why leetcode was spawned, to weed out the 99% in a way where nobody can claim discrimination. The last 1% can be picked with discrimination by failing the undesired candidates, the "not a culture fit".

ilc 3y ago

I fail at #5. Most all the coding I do is for the firm I work for, occasionally some of it escapes to the open source world if I can convince some manager to let it. At the end of the day, if I've wrung out all I got, that's all there is. It is best to recharge and get ready for the next day. I've written some pretty cool stuff. But often the code isn't 1/4 of what is interesting about what got written :)

vunderba 3y ago

Man, I forgot how much people on hacker news absolutely hate the idea of side projects, a.k.a. passion for engineering and an interest in creating new things. Somehow the implication is that if you build even one little side project for fun that means that you spend every single hour of your time coding. It's such a reductio ad absurdum argument. If I was hiring an architect, I'd expect to see samples of their work. If I was hiring an artist, I'd expect them to have a portfolio on Behance or Artstation. etc. etc.

popularonion 3y ago
It sounds like you have the mentality that everybody must be a front end developer. I work in a domain that's very much not front end development, I've participated in interview rounds for at least 100 different candidates, I don't think I've seen "side projects" ever be a factor in someone getting hired, not even once. The one thing that did put an applicant way ahead of the pack was contributing to open source projects relevant to our domain. It didn't have to be anything super duper impressive, we just liked to see a history of submitting meaningful PRs and getting them through code review.