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Every company I've talked to with "transparent" comp has offered absolutely terrible comp, even for their highest possible offer. In reality "transparent comp"

Every company I've talked to with "transparent" comp has offered absolutely terrible comp, even for their highest possible offer. In reality "transparent comp" becomes an excuse for companies to not negotiate.

velcrovan 3y ago
If it is legislated that everyone has to do it, then people looking to sell their labor can do so with perfect knowledge of where the market is at, reducing the negotiating strength of these shitty companies. This is how it already works in Norway. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239
- tristor 3y ago
  And how is tech compensation in Norway compared to the US? That's what I thought...
  - occz 3y ago
    Go ahead and prove causation on that, please. You're not going to be able to, because it's impossible.
    - tristor 3y ago
      Sure, impossible to prove, but a terrible example to bring up for the other position as well.
      - oblio 3y ago
        Your counterargument is worse, though.
  - velcrovan 3y ago
    The raw numbers are different, I’m guessing (I haven’t looked). A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing, is healthier, spends less time in traffic and lives in a society where everyone lives safer and more equally, and has more power to walk away from a shit job than someone in the US. It’s a system that values autonomy for the most people over the power of a tiny sector of the economy to rake in maximum dollars, and wage transparency is just a small feature of that system. But yeah if it doesn’t bring you personally more money I guess it’s not even worth thinking about
    - sofixa 3y ago
      > A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing Also doesn't start their work life with tens of thousands of debt at exorbitant rates that can't be discarded, childcare costs less, they get paid time off for leisure and for being sick, don't have to keep a rainy day fund of 6 months in case they get in a crash, get scammed with an ambulance ride and hospital bills, and lose their job over it, etc. etc. There is so much more than just raw numbers for a salary it's kind of sad how many people use that as the only metric.
    - WrongAssumption 3y ago
      you are the one that brought up negotiating power in the context of pay transparency. In fact it is the one thing only consequence you listed in the original post. It’s unfair of you to throw back in their face that they addressed the one and only factor you listed.
      - velcrovan 3y ago
        It is undeniable that a tech worker in Norway negotiates for a wage with better information than the same worker in a country without income transparency. To claim that the effects of this transparency should be measured by a simple comparison of raw average salaries between the two countries is to use a metric that includes all of the confounding variables I mentioned and more. I am simply explaining why it is a poor metric, and explaining that the value of state-mandated transparency is in personal autonomy, not in “will it magically elevate my individual salary potential in one country above what it would be in all other countries”.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      > A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing, A tech worker in SV has healthcare covered and makes so much more than a Norwegian that they can afford SV rents. > is healthier, Life expectancy in Norway: 83. Life expectancy of northern Europeans in the US: 83 for men, 85 for women [1]. Wrong to look at life expectancy at a state level since it is based on cultural/ethnic traits and not based on your passport. Same numbers for East Asia - men (85), women (88) which is similar to East Asian countries (eg. Japan @85). > lives in a society where everyone lives safer and more equally More equally - not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Depends on the details. Though looking at the number of talented individuals flocking to the US from the supposedly egalitarian countries, it seems US is doing something good. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5026916/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5026916/
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
matwood 3y ago
People in general don't like to have the hard conversations where they tell Bob that Sue is better than him and she makes more money. It's easier to just normalize transparent salaries lower. If everyone is transparent it will change over time though.
- sofixa 3y ago
  If it's real stuff, it can easily be explained: > Look, Bob. Sue has made X super valuable contributions in the last quarter, and she has done A and B, and she's the expert on that special topic. That's why she's paid 3% more than you, I hope you understand. If you want to get closer to her pay salary, look into improving yourself on XY, doing more AB work, etc. Giving concrete reasons and targets to achieve is actually beneficial, and it can help motivate people. If there are no concrete reasons, well, then it's just pay discrimination for nothing more than gut feeling which is shitty, and Bob is right to feel bad about it.
  - matwood 3y ago
    Even with real stuff, people don't like having hard conversations. It's how toxic people stay in organizations, and poor performers are never let go.
kasey_junk 3y ago
I worked for several hedge funds with transparent comp that have been some of the most lucrative of my career. If we are just throwing around anecdotes.

velcrovan 3y ago

If it is legislated that everyone has to do it, then people looking to sell their labor can do so with perfect knowledge of where the market is at, reducing the negotiating strength of these shitty companies. This is how it already works in Norway. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239

tristor 3y ago
And how is tech compensation in Norway compared to the US? That's what I thought...
- occz 3y ago
  Go ahead and prove causation on that, please. You're not going to be able to, because it's impossible.
  - tristor 3y ago
    Sure, impossible to prove, but a terrible example to bring up for the other position as well.
    - oblio 3y ago
      Your counterargument is worse, though.
- velcrovan 3y ago
  The raw numbers are different, I’m guessing (I haven’t looked). A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing, is healthier, spends less time in traffic and lives in a society where everyone lives safer and more equally, and has more power to walk away from a shit job than someone in the US. It’s a system that values autonomy for the most people over the power of a tiny sector of the economy to rake in maximum dollars, and wage transparency is just a small feature of that system. But yeah if it doesn’t bring you personally more money I guess it’s not even worth thinking about
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing Also doesn't start their work life with tens of thousands of debt at exorbitant rates that can't be discarded, childcare costs less, they get paid time off for leisure and for being sick, don't have to keep a rainy day fund of 6 months in case they get in a crash, get scammed with an ambulance ride and hospital bills, and lose their job over it, etc. etc. There is so much more than just raw numbers for a salary it's kind of sad how many people use that as the only metric.
  - WrongAssumption 3y ago
    you are the one that brought up negotiating power in the context of pay transparency. In fact it is the one thing only consequence you listed in the original post. It’s unfair of you to throw back in their face that they addressed the one and only factor you listed.
    - velcrovan 3y ago
      It is undeniable that a tech worker in Norway negotiates for a wage with better information than the same worker in a country without income transparency. To claim that the effects of this transparency should be measured by a simple comparison of raw average salaries between the two countries is to use a metric that includes all of the confounding variables I mentioned and more. I am simply explaining why it is a poor metric, and explaining that the value of state-mandated transparency is in personal autonomy, not in “will it magically elevate my individual salary potential in one country above what it would be in all other countries”.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    > A tech worker in Norway also pays less for healthcare and housing, A tech worker in SV has healthcare covered and makes so much more than a Norwegian that they can afford SV rents. > is healthier, Life expectancy in Norway: 83. Life expectancy of northern Europeans in the US: 83 for men, 85 for women [1]. Wrong to look at life expectancy at a state level since it is based on cultural/ethnic traits and not based on your passport. Same numbers for East Asia - men (85), women (88) which is similar to East Asian countries (eg. Japan @85). > lives in a society where everyone lives safer and more equally More equally - not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Depends on the details. Though looking at the number of talented individuals flocking to the US from the supposedly egalitarian countries, it seems US is doing something good. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5026916/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5026916/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

matwood 3y ago

People in general don't like to have the hard conversations where they tell Bob that Sue is better than him and she makes more money. It's easier to just normalize transparent salaries lower. If everyone is transparent it will change over time though.

sofixa 3y ago
If it's real stuff, it can easily be explained: > Look, Bob. Sue has made X super valuable contributions in the last quarter, and she has done A and B, and she's the expert on that special topic. That's why she's paid 3% more than you, I hope you understand. If you want to get closer to her pay salary, look into improving yourself on XY, doing more AB work, etc. Giving concrete reasons and targets to achieve is actually beneficial, and it can help motivate people. If there are no concrete reasons, well, then it's just pay discrimination for nothing more than gut feeling which is shitty, and Bob is right to feel bad about it.
- matwood 3y ago
  Even with real stuff, people don't like having hard conversations. It's how toxic people stay in organizations, and poor performers are never let go.

kasey_junk 3y ago

I worked for several hedge funds with transparent comp that have been some of the most lucrative of my career. If we are just throwing around anecdotes.