3 ms·

I left Google voluntarily but, since you asked, I did blow the whistle on unethical management practices, and I was chagrined when absolutely nothing changed. T

I left Google voluntarily but, since you asked, I did blow the whistle on unethical management practices, and I was chagrined when absolutely nothing changed. That wasn't why I left. I left because I wanted to do functional programming and that wasn't going to happen where I was. I don't mind using C++ but I'd rather it not be my full-time job. For my part, I don't like the creeping laxity of ethics that I've seen in technology startups (including Google) for the past few years. I really think that some of the slimiest actors are coming into our industry because they think engineers are easier to take advantage of (since we just want to code and a lot of us put our heads in the sand about office nastiness). I'm glad that programmer salaries are finally starting to converge to what we're worth, but a lot of the worst elements are coming into VC-istan because of the money that's in it.

jberryman 15y ago
Can you share if/where you do FP, or was that at the recent ex-employer?
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  I did a year of Ocaml at Jane Street and Clojure for over 2 years at a startup that failed for non-technical reasons.
  - whalliburton 15y ago
    You know, I sit around here and occasionally run into classic Michael Church writing, which I feel like I dig pretty well. But the clearly provable missteps into blatant lies, such as this failed startup comment, just need to stop. Your honesty and your truth, Michael, are more important than your thoughts. Please stick with that.
    - michaelochurch 15y ago
      When I left, an excellent programmer and a personal friend of mine had to crack his 401(k) because the company didn't have the money to cover what taxes he owed on the small amount it had paid him in 2010. Perhaps it's still on life support and E is still funding H's lifestyle, but I'll stand by "failed for nontechnical reasons".
      - palish 15y ago
        I can't believe that HN is blatantly calling you liar. I can't believe you're calmly responding to it. Guys, whether or not someone might or might not be lying about their own personal life is strictly their business, and not yours -- and certainly not a public matter!
        jrockway 15y ago
        Nobody is calling him a liar, they are just pointing out that his story may not be as factual as he portrays it to be. If he's choosing to air his dirty laundry in public, it's expected that people are going to comment on it. Those without inside information may not know what is true and what is not true. Those with inside information may feel that it's inappropriate to disclose the exact details which may discredit the argument. This makes the process very difficult. There's really no way anyone can say "everything michaelochurch says is wrong".
        palish 15y ago
        Nobody is calling him a liar. Whalliburton directly called him a liar. Those without inside information may not know what is true and what is not true. Then email him. There's really no way anyone can say "everything michaelochurch says is wrong". It's incredibly creepy that HN is fact-checking a personal anecdote about a nameless company; an anecdote which he clearly wanted to share with us in order to simply chill with us and be happy with us. He wasn't even hurting anyone or saying anything about anyone. You all chose to dig for no reason at all. Let me put it another way. His original story did not whistleblow anything. It was just a story without a particular purpose. It doesn't matter why he wrote it, nor does it matter whether it was true. He wrote it in order to feel happy. HN went out of its way to check whether it could ruin that happiness, for no reason whatsoever.
    - beedogs 15y ago
      Your comment is extremely inappropriate.
    - sequoia 15y ago
      I downvoted most of the top comments on this subthread. This has nothing to do with the topic of this article or this discussion, nor is this even relevant to most people here. Please hash out your pissing contest / interpersonal grudges elsewhere.
yukyukyuk 15y ago
I have also worked at Google. Please go into more detail re: unethical management practices. In my experience, Google goes to great lengths to be fair to its employees, so I'm a bit surprised.
buckwild 15y ago
Have you ever worked in the finance industry? Those guys will kill their own family if it will get them a $5K raise. I worked in the california mortgage industry before going to college. These guys would convince families living paycheck to paycheck to buy/refinance REALLY expensive homes. If they were on a 30 year fixed, we get them on an option-arm. If they are on an option-arm, we get them on a 30-year fixed. This is all typical finance stuff. But here comes the kicker--they would actually outright LIE about interest rates and had a few shady notaries to back them. They would say you have a 1% interest rate (for 30 years) when it was really a 5 year option-arm and screw people. The worst part is, CA has some sort of law that protects mortgage lenders from unhappy customers after 5 years time (exactly when the 1% interest rate would fly to the market rate). Needless to say, several people left the company when we found out. Some folks reported them to the BBB--I don't know what happened to those scumbags though. I really hope people like that stay out of science.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  I was in a group doing arbitrage. I can't say anything first-hand about mortgages. Real-estate people (not including architects) are scummy. All of them. It's the filthiest business around. Real-estate finance people are bound to be scummy. I agree. I wasn't saying, "There are no slimeballs in finance". I just think that, from a boots on the ground perspective, there isn't much difference between Wall Street and the hottest startups of VC-istan.
- iamdave 15y ago
  Not that your point of people taking an "at all costs" approach to career advancement is missed, but I'm not sure about your analogy re: the finance industry. He's an engineer, not someone trying to close deals on mortgages or equity loans, none of that is his domain. I work in finance software (specifically regulatory compliance) and it's arguably one of the most supportive and communicative industries to be on the engineering side of. Until you start having to deal with compliance regulations, then it becomes a chore.
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  > I don't know what happened to those scumbags though. Unlike the S&L crisis, exactly none of them got indicted and all of them got bailed out, except Bernie Madoff whose schemes were totally orthogonal to the financial crisis.
madhadron 15y ago
Ah, you left before it became apparent that Google is a company going into decline. Personally, I stopped even considering working there when I heard about Search-Plus-Your-World, and when I saw a Google+ video advertisement, I knew the company had ceased to be anything of intellectual interest. It had a good run, though.

jberryman 15y ago

Can you share if/where you do FP, or was that at the recent ex-employer?

michaelochurch 15y ago
I did a year of Ocaml at Jane Street and Clojure for over 2 years at a startup that failed for non-technical reasons.
- whalliburton 15y ago
  You know, I sit around here and occasionally run into classic Michael Church writing, which I feel like I dig pretty well. But the clearly provable missteps into blatant lies, such as this failed startup comment, just need to stop. Your honesty and your truth, Michael, are more important than your thoughts. Please stick with that.
  - michaelochurch 15y ago
    When I left, an excellent programmer and a personal friend of mine had to crack his 401(k) because the company didn't have the money to cover what taxes he owed on the small amount it had paid him in 2010. Perhaps it's still on life support and E is still funding H's lifestyle, but I'll stand by "failed for nontechnical reasons".
    - palish 15y ago
      I can't believe that HN is blatantly calling you liar. I can't believe you're calmly responding to it. Guys, whether or not someone might or might not be lying about their own personal life is strictly their business, and not yours -- and certainly not a public matter!
      - jrockway 15y ago
        Nobody is calling him a liar, they are just pointing out that his story may not be as factual as he portrays it to be. If he's choosing to air his dirty laundry in public, it's expected that people are going to comment on it. Those without inside information may not know what is true and what is not true. Those with inside information may feel that it's inappropriate to disclose the exact details which may discredit the argument. This makes the process very difficult. There's really no way anyone can say "everything michaelochurch says is wrong".
        palish 15y ago
        Nobody is calling him a liar. Whalliburton directly called him a liar. Those without inside information may not know what is true and what is not true. Then email him. There's really no way anyone can say "everything michaelochurch says is wrong". It's incredibly creepy that HN is fact-checking a personal anecdote about a nameless company; an anecdote which he clearly wanted to share with us in order to simply chill with us and be happy with us. He wasn't even hurting anyone or saying anything about anyone. You all chose to dig for no reason at all. Let me put it another way. His original story did not whistleblow anything. It was just a story without a particular purpose. It doesn't matter why he wrote it, nor does it matter whether it was true. He wrote it in order to feel happy. HN went out of its way to check whether it could ruin that happiness, for no reason whatsoever.
  - beedogs 15y ago
    Your comment is extremely inappropriate.
  - sequoia 15y ago
    I downvoted most of the top comments on this subthread. This has nothing to do with the topic of this article or this discussion, nor is this even relevant to most people here. Please hash out your pissing contest / interpersonal grudges elsewhere.

yukyukyuk 15y ago

I have also worked at Google. Please go into more detail re: unethical management practices. In my experience, Google goes to great lengths to be fair to its employees, so I'm a bit surprised.

buckwild 15y ago

Have you ever worked in the finance industry? Those guys will kill their own family if it will get them a $5K raise. I worked in the california mortgage industry before going to college. These guys would convince families living paycheck to paycheck to buy/refinance REALLY expensive homes. If they were on a 30 year fixed, we get them on an option-arm. If they are on an option-arm, we get them on a 30-year fixed. This is all typical finance stuff. But here comes the kicker--they would actually outright LIE about interest rates and had a few shady notaries to back them. They would say you have a 1% interest rate (for 30 years) when it was really a 5 year option-arm and screw people. The worst part is, CA has some sort of law that protects mortgage lenders from unhappy customers after 5 years time (exactly when the 1% interest rate would fly to the market rate). Needless to say, several people left the company when we found out. Some folks reported them to the BBB--I don't know what happened to those scumbags though. I really hope people like that stay out of science.

michaelochurch 15y ago
I was in a group doing arbitrage. I can't say anything first-hand about mortgages. Real-estate people (not including architects) are scummy. All of them. It's the filthiest business around. Real-estate finance people are bound to be scummy. I agree. I wasn't saying, "There are no slimeballs in finance". I just think that, from a boots on the ground perspective, there isn't much difference between Wall Street and the hottest startups of VC-istan.
iamdave 15y ago
Not that your point of people taking an "at all costs" approach to career advancement is missed, but I'm not sure about your analogy re: the finance industry. He's an engineer, not someone trying to close deals on mortgages or equity loans, none of that is his domain. I work in finance software (specifically regulatory compliance) and it's arguably one of the most supportive and communicative industries to be on the engineering side of. Until you start having to deal with compliance regulations, then it becomes a chore.
SkyMarshal 15y ago
> I don't know what happened to those scumbags though. Unlike the S&L crisis, exactly none of them got indicted and all of them got bailed out, except Bernie Madoff whose schemes were totally orthogonal to the financial crisis.

madhadron 15y ago

Ah, you left before it became apparent that Google is a company going into decline. Personally, I stopped even considering working there when I heard about Search-Plus-Your-World, and when I saw a Google+ video advertisement, I knew the company had ceased to be anything of intellectual interest. It had a good run, though.