13 ms·

Just from the interwebs looks like you've had problems at two employers now including Google: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783114 http://news.ycombinat

by temphn 15y ago

Just from the interwebs looks like you've had problems at two employers now including Google: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783114 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3783114 Maybe the problem is you, not the employer?

ryguytilidie 15y ago
Yeah because if you have beef with more than one company doing sketchy shit its probably your fault...?
csallen 15y ago
Unless you're going to present some solid evidence, it's out of place to make that suggestion based on only two data points.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  In August, I suggested that the only way we'd see lasting success/popularity for G+ was to build a really great game brand, and that we couldn't do this if we were publishing a mix of (a) Zynga games and (b) decent but not brand-defining games like Angry Birds (non-defining because it was already popular by then). I got a few people together and we came up with a plan for saving the Games brand by courting indie developers. A plan that would have worked, and that likely would have made G+ into something. I had massive support (including about 2/3 of the G+ Games team, because who wants to support Farmville instead of doing something cool?) among the engineers and a lot of people said they'd contribute on a 20% basis (even though 20%T was clearly dying). This drew a lot of attention to me. Positive attention from everyone who cared about games or the actual success of G+. Negative attention from the higher-ups because they were afraid of another RNCH. Googlers don't talk about it for fear of losing their jobs, but the engineers hate the Real Names policy. It's probably 80 to 90 percent opposition. Here was another mini-RN (even titled "Real Games") that I inadvertently started in my first 3 months by pointing out that the direction we were taking with games was going to set a historical record for missed opportunities. A weird and harrowing experience. I really did not anticipate that positing a good idea and getting a lot of popular support would lead to adversity. I underestimated the degree (and I still do) to which people would entrench themselves with bad ideas. I still stand by the fact that I was completely and utterly right. The only way I can see a general-purpose social network beating Facebook is by having great games, and by having a very high average quality (a "we won't waste your time" ideology). This requires being extremely editorial about what you accept. This is hard for Google because it made its name by being non-editorial, which is admirable and stately for web search but inappropriate for games, especially because those shitty Zynga games were (in 2011) the #1 cited cause of social network fatigue. I didn't get fired, because I don't think Google knows how to fire people. (If it did, there'd be boxes at the desks of most of their executives.) I left in good standing when I realized that (a) I had years of C++ legacy maintenance ahead of me, because that's what most of the work at Google is, and (b) it would take several years before I'd actually be able to really contribute. Not being able to save the Games product was pretty discouraging. This is what people keep talking about here on HN with regard to me and Google. That, and the fact that I got mixed up with one of the most ineffective means of communication (an internal mailing list that rhymes with henge-risk) I've ever encountered.
  - EwanG 15y ago
    If you ever decide to put together a social network dedicated to games by gamers (or people who want to play them), please let me know. I have a half dozen half-developed HTML5 games because I can't figure out how I would make enough money to pay the hosting bills. Would love to team up with someone who can build a platform that I could put these on. I could do these as Flash of course (did do so with one game a couple years ago), but I can't say I'm interested in putting in library after library of ads and optimizing Actionscript to support a shrinking audience.
    - OneWhoFrogs 15y ago
      http://www.kongregate.com/html5-games http://www.kongregate.com/html5-games It seems Kongregate supports HTML5 games. Perhaps you could try hosting them there?
      - EwanG 15y ago
        Amusingly enough, while they do have a small list of HTML5 games, there is nothing in their documentation that talks about how to get one to them. The single reference is to using an iFrame to put their API onto your game that is hosted at another URL. I am hopeful they, or Mochi, or someone like them will come along and provide a true HTML5 solution like the Flash folks already have. But I suspect we are getting rather off-topic here :-)
    - Empedocles99 15y ago
      Maybe not exactly what you meant, but Raptr employs video game players (including a few pro/ex-pro players), and is a social network for video game players.
      - EwanG 15y ago
        Well, I was looking more for a site dedicated to developers that might also host games. But Raptr seems interesting enough. Thanks for the suggestion!
  - 15y ago
michaelochurch 15y ago
I left Google voluntarily but, since you asked, I did blow the whistle on unethical management practices, and I was chagrined when absolutely nothing changed. That wasn't why I left. I left because I wanted to do functional programming and that wasn't going to happen where I was. I don't mind using C++ but I'd rather it not be my full-time job. For my part, I don't like the creeping laxity of ethics that I've seen in technology startups (including Google) for the past few years. I really think that some of the slimiest actors are coming into our industry because they think engineers are easier to take advantage of (since we just want to code and a lot of us put our heads in the sand about office nastiness). I'm glad that programmer salaries are finally starting to converge to what we're worth, but a lot of the worst elements are coming into VC-istan because of the money that's in it.
- jberryman 15y ago
  Can you share if/where you do FP, or was that at the recent ex-employer?
  - michaelochurch 15y ago
    I did a year of Ocaml at Jane Street and Clojure for over 2 years at a startup that failed for non-technical reasons.
    - whalliburton 15y ago
      You know, I sit around here and occasionally run into classic Michael Church writing, which I feel like I dig pretty well. But the clearly provable missteps into blatant lies, such as this failed startup comment, just need to stop. Your honesty and your truth, Michael, are more important than your thoughts. Please stick with that.
      - michaelochurch 15y ago
        When I left, an excellent programmer and a personal friend of mine had to crack his 401(k) because the company didn't have the money to cover what taxes he owed on the small amount it had paid him in 2010. Perhaps it's still on life support and E is still funding H's lifestyle, but I'll stand by "failed for nontechnical reasons".
mattdeboard 15y ago
It's called moral courage because it requires hard decisions and sacrifice, and leaves you open to suffer barbs from fools who seek to make themselves look and feel better. It's not called "moral no-shit-sherlock-easy-choice." It's called moral courage because of people like you. (full disclosure: I don't know the grandparent poster, I don't know his situation. But I do know how bad you can be made to look when making the right choice, usually by callow jackanapes.)
- jaylevitt 15y ago
  Reminds me of Jon Stewart's great quote: "If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies."
  - bloggergirl 15y ago
    That is excellent. Like everything Jon Stewart says.
- temphn 15y ago
  Heh. You don't know the grandparent poster, but I'm the callow jacknape. He's slagging off everyone in the world, I'm only pointing out that it might not be the world that's the problem. And he's the upvoted one, on this thread at least. What's moral courage again? It's saying what's unpopular, because it's right. And it's right to note that the holier-than-thou who seek to lecture the world on all their sins (real and imagined) are generally self-important jackasses rather than people to be respected, let alone imitated.
fudged 15y ago
Do you think the idea of searching for this information perhaps a bit ironic in this context?
- einhverfr 15y ago
  Not only ironic, but Orin Kerr has argued (http://www.c-span.org/Events/Washington-Journal-for-Monday-April-2/10737429561-0/ http://www.c-span.org/Events/Washington-Journal-for-Monday-A...) that in the case of police departments using this practice (they appear to be big users of the practice) it might actually be barred by the 4th Amendment. And private employers might or might not be violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act as far as civil damages.
  - fudged 15y ago
    I was referencing the fact that the user was actively looking up the details of the other user.

by temphn 15y ago

ryguytilidie 15y ago

Yeah because if you have beef with more than one company doing sketchy shit its probably your fault...?

csallen 15y ago

Unless you're going to present some solid evidence, it's out of place to make that suggestion based on only two data points.

michaelochurch 15y ago
In August, I suggested that the only way we'd see lasting success/popularity for G+ was to build a really great game brand, and that we couldn't do this if we were publishing a mix of (a) Zynga games and (b) decent but not brand-defining games like Angry Birds (non-defining because it was already popular by then). I got a few people together and we came up with a plan for saving the Games brand by courting indie developers. A plan that would have worked, and that likely would have made G+ into something. I had massive support (including about 2/3 of the G+ Games team, because who wants to support Farmville instead of doing something cool?) among the engineers and a lot of people said they'd contribute on a 20% basis (even though 20%T was clearly dying). This drew a lot of attention to me. Positive attention from everyone who cared about games or the actual success of G+. Negative attention from the higher-ups because they were afraid of another RNCH. Googlers don't talk about it for fear of losing their jobs, but the engineers hate the Real Names policy. It's probably 80 to 90 percent opposition. Here was another mini-RN (even titled "Real Games") that I inadvertently started in my first 3 months by pointing out that the direction we were taking with games was going to set a historical record for missed opportunities. A weird and harrowing experience. I really did not anticipate that positing a good idea and getting a lot of popular support would lead to adversity. I underestimated the degree (and I still do) to which people would entrench themselves with bad ideas. I still stand by the fact that I was completely and utterly right. The only way I can see a general-purpose social network beating Facebook is by having great games, and by having a very high average quality (a "we won't waste your time" ideology). This requires being extremely editorial about what you accept. This is hard for Google because it made its name by being non-editorial, which is admirable and stately for web search but inappropriate for games, especially because those shitty Zynga games were (in 2011) the #1 cited cause of social network fatigue. I didn't get fired, because I don't think Google knows how to fire people. (If it did, there'd be boxes at the desks of most of their executives.) I left in good standing when I realized that (a) I had years of C++ legacy maintenance ahead of me, because that's what most of the work at Google is, and (b) it would take several years before I'd actually be able to really contribute. Not being able to save the Games product was pretty discouraging. This is what people keep talking about here on HN with regard to me and Google. That, and the fact that I got mixed up with one of the most ineffective means of communication (an internal mailing list that rhymes with henge-risk) I've ever encountered.
- EwanG 15y ago
  If you ever decide to put together a social network dedicated to games by gamers (or people who want to play them), please let me know. I have a half dozen half-developed HTML5 games because I can't figure out how I would make enough money to pay the hosting bills. Would love to team up with someone who can build a platform that I could put these on. I could do these as Flash of course (did do so with one game a couple years ago), but I can't say I'm interested in putting in library after library of ads and optimizing Actionscript to support a shrinking audience.
  - OneWhoFrogs 15y ago
    http://www.kongregate.com/html5-games http://www.kongregate.com/html5-games It seems Kongregate supports HTML5 games. Perhaps you could try hosting them there?
    - EwanG 15y ago
      Amusingly enough, while they do have a small list of HTML5 games, there is nothing in their documentation that talks about how to get one to them. The single reference is to using an iFrame to put their API onto your game that is hosted at another URL. I am hopeful they, or Mochi, or someone like them will come along and provide a true HTML5 solution like the Flash folks already have. But I suspect we are getting rather off-topic here :-)
  - Empedocles99 15y ago
    Maybe not exactly what you meant, but Raptr employs video game players (including a few pro/ex-pro players), and is a social network for video game players.
    - EwanG 15y ago
      Well, I was looking more for a site dedicated to developers that might also host games. But Raptr seems interesting enough. Thanks for the suggestion!
- 15y ago

michaelochurch 15y ago

I left Google voluntarily but, since you asked, I did blow the whistle on unethical management practices, and I was chagrined when absolutely nothing changed. That wasn't why I left. I left because I wanted to do functional programming and that wasn't going to happen where I was. I don't mind using C++ but I'd rather it not be my full-time job. For my part, I don't like the creeping laxity of ethics that I've seen in technology startups (including Google) for the past few years. I really think that some of the slimiest actors are coming into our industry because they think engineers are easier to take advantage of (since we just want to code and a lot of us put our heads in the sand about office nastiness). I'm glad that programmer salaries are finally starting to converge to what we're worth, but a lot of the worst elements are coming into VC-istan because of the money that's in it.

jberryman 15y ago
Can you share if/where you do FP, or was that at the recent ex-employer?
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  I did a year of Ocaml at Jane Street and Clojure for over 2 years at a startup that failed for non-technical reasons.
  - whalliburton 15y ago
    You know, I sit around here and occasionally run into classic Michael Church writing, which I feel like I dig pretty well. But the clearly provable missteps into blatant lies, such as this failed startup comment, just need to stop. Your honesty and your truth, Michael, are more important than your thoughts. Please stick with that.
    - michaelochurch 15y ago
      When I left, an excellent programmer and a personal friend of mine had to crack his 401(k) because the company didn't have the money to cover what taxes he owed on the small amount it had paid him in 2010. Perhaps it's still on life support and E is still funding H's lifestyle, but I'll stand by "failed for nontechnical reasons".

mattdeboard 15y ago

It's called moral courage because it requires hard decisions and sacrifice, and leaves you open to suffer barbs from fools who seek to make themselves look and feel better. It's not called "moral no-shit-sherlock-easy-choice." It's called moral courage because of people like you. (full disclosure: I don't know the grandparent poster, I don't know his situation. But I do know how bad you can be made to look when making the right choice, usually by callow jackanapes.)

jaylevitt 15y ago
Reminds me of Jon Stewart's great quote: "If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values. They're... hobbies."
- bloggergirl 15y ago
  That is excellent. Like everything Jon Stewart says.
temphn 15y ago
Heh. You don't know the grandparent poster, but I'm the callow jacknape. He's slagging off everyone in the world, I'm only pointing out that it might not be the world that's the problem. And he's the upvoted one, on this thread at least. What's moral courage again? It's saying what's unpopular, because it's right. And it's right to note that the holier-than-thou who seek to lecture the world on all their sins (real and imagined) are generally self-important jackasses rather than people to be respected, let alone imitated.

fudged 15y ago

Do you think the idea of searching for this information perhaps a bit ironic in this context?

einhverfr 15y ago
Not only ironic, but Orin Kerr has argued (http://www.c-span.org/Events/Washington-Journal-for-Monday-April-2/10737429561-0/ http://www.c-span.org/Events/Washington-Journal-for-Monday-A...) that in the case of police departments using this practice (they appear to be big users of the practice) it might actually be barred by the 4th Amendment. And private employers might or might not be violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act as far as civil damages.
- fudged 15y ago
  I was referencing the fact that the user was actively looking up the details of the other user.