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Why the Culture Wins: An Appreciation of Iain M. Banks (2017)
- tivert 3y agoThat website has the worst design imaginable. It's a totally unreadable black text on a blackish space image. So, I'll react the the title. The real reason "the Culture Wins" is basically the storm trooper effect: they're the protagonists in fiction, so they're written to win regardless if it makes sense or not. I believe one of the books does hint that the eventually disappear. The culture novel about that is the one I really want to read.
- ytoawwhra92 3y ago> That website has the worst design imaginable. It's a totally unreadable black text on a blackish space image. It's a bug in their CSS. They've tried to set the background of the text container to white, but they included an alpha value which made the white completely transparent. So not an intentionally bad design.
- Others 3y agoI appreciate the fact that IMB is trying to present a optimistic view of the future. Not all sci-fi needs to be negative or dystopian, and his remains plausible despite its optimism. I think if you’d rather read about the downfall of the Culture, then you’ve somewhat profoundly missed the point of Ian’s writing.
- keiferski 3y agoI don't know how the world described in the article is utopian. If anything, it's dystopian, in the vein of Brave New World.
- boxed 3y agoI have an ongoing argument with my wife where I proclaim Brave New World to be a utopia, not a dystopia. It's a society where the VAST majority of people are happy. Really truly happy. A society that is in ecological balance with nature. If Brave New World is a dystopia, what does that make the world we live in now? It has to be some kind of super-dystopia, because it's worse in every way you can possibly imagine.
- keiferski 3y agoI don't think it's that complicated: because not everyone thinks "being happy" is the utmost peak of meaning or purpose. Many people desire challenges, difficulty, a grand narrative that comes with ups and downs.
- KingMob 3y agoIn the Culture, those are the people who join Contact/Special Circumstances, so they get what they want too.
- boxed 3y agoAnd those people exist and are handled specifically in Brave New World. It's just that the system fucked up a bit and took a long time to find the protagonist of the book. But consider the world you and I live in where a vast majority of people who want challenges like this can never have them as they are stuck being dirt poor, or in criminality or something. It's gotten a lot better in the last 100 years, but it's no where close to BNW.
- pharmakom 3y agoThe book tackles this directly.
- arethuza 3y agoI'm pretty sure that if the Culture discovered a world like that of Brave New World they'd work to shut that society down pretty quickly as they'd be appalled at the idea of creating underclasses by intentionally exposing embryos to poisons (alcohol?). The the society of Brave New World would fail as a utopia because of the "What would the Culture think?" test ;-)
- varjag 3y agoIt really isn't though, if you read the actual novels.
- arethuza 3y agoNot much of a dystopia if you can leave at any point - and in fact be actively supported in leaving if that's your thing. The fact that the Culture seems to be inherently comfortable with people, ships and even chunks of society leaving or joining gives an indicator of how it really is "self consciously rational" as Banks put it.
- keiferski 3y agoMaybe I'm lost here because I haven't read the books, but how does this not lead to a fundamental contradiction? The article says that the Culture intervenes in places that don't quite live up to their values or are otherwise problematic in some way. So if people leave the Culture and develop in ways that become unacceptable to the Culture and thus get interfered with again, how free are they to actually leave?
- arethuza 3y agoThe galaxy in the Culture novels is a big place full of many societies - a few at the same level of technological development as the Culture. So it wouldn't be that difficult to wander off somewhere and get lost and do your own thing. However, if you do go off and set up your own fascist dictatorship outside of the Culture there is also no protection should the Grey Area come hunting for you.
- rsynnott 3y ago> The article says that the Culture intervenes in places that don't quite live up to their values or are otherwise problematic in some way. In practice, they mostly intervene against people with, like, slavery and death camps, not minor philosophical differences (or even pretty major ones; many civilisations run artificial afterlives of eternal torment for their people, and the Culture doesn't openly intervene against _that_). A number of breakaway ex-Culture cultures show up in the books, along with various Culture dissidents.
- tivert 3y ago> many civilisations run artificial afterlives of eternal torment for their people, and the Culture doesn't openly intervene against _that_ Key word: openly.
- Animats 3y ago> That website has the worst design imaginable. Firefox reader mode fixes that, and that site really needs it. Reviewers of the Culture novels tend to project their own political biases onto it. This writer quotes Marx a bit too much. There's some other review where someone was trying to read race and gender issues onto the Culture. They're missing the point. The Culture novels describe a stable society where the machines are in charge. That's been addressed many times in science fiction, but not, usually, well. Asimov's later robot novels, where it become clear that the robots are manipulating humanity, do address it. That's about as good as it gets. Frank Herbert's Dune has the "Butlerian Jihad", but Herbert's idea of robot social organization is just humans in robot costume. Jack Williamson's "Humanoids" stories, about benign but overprotective robots, reflect someone getting the goal system slightly wrong. In more popular culture, The Forbin Project (1970), a movie which seems to be enjoying a renaissance, does address the issue. The machines which control the nuclear weapons of both sides get into contact, and agree to take over to keep humanity from destroying itself. They come up with a reasonably sensible plan for running things, which is fleshed out more in the books. The Star [Trek|Wars|Gate] universe never really addresses this directly, since it would undermine the show's stars. Nor does the Marvel universe; AIs appear, but are not in charge. There's Marshall Brain's "Manna", of course, the dystopian version of this. The Culture novels show a stable society that's run by intelligent machines yet is flexible, adaptable, can deal with crises, and is pleasant for humans to live in. They don't show how to get there. Which is a problem.
- globular-toast 3y agoDid they fix the design? It looks fine to me. I'd even say it looks good. (Firefox GNU/Linux). I wonder how you're able to enjoy science fiction at all given that the answer to every story is "because it's fiction and it was written that way".
- bb101 3y agoWorks perfectly on Mullvad Browser, Firefox and Safari. Remember: friends don't let friends use Chrome.
- codeflo 3y ago> Marx’s claim is that there are functional relations between technology and social structure, so that you can’t just combine them any old way. Marx was, in this regard, certainly right, hence the sociological naiveté that lies at the heart of Dune. Feudalism with energy weapons makes no sense – a feudal society could not produce energy weapons, and energy weapons would undermine feudal social relations. This doesn’t do justice to the world building of Dune. Technology is very limited. Computers are banned (for good reasons), and using those energy weapons is also forbidden in most situations. Thus, combat is once again dominated by the kind of melee encounters that were also historically the domain of a trained warrior caste. All of this is explored in detail in the later books, which maybe the author hasn’t read? If anything, Dune deeply affirms that society mirrors technology rather than creating a simple “naive feudal sci-fi” world as claimed here. I haven’t read much past that yet since the article is very wordy, and it’s hard to be motivated to push forward once you stop being convinced that the author has a point.
- wanderingbit 3y ago> combat is once again dominated by the kind of melee encounters that were also historically the domain of a trained warrior caste Correct me if I'm wrong here, but does Herbert ever give a reason for why the characters in Dune do not use gunpowder/projectile weapons (a.k.a. guns), similar to modern armies? I never understood why the characters in Dune bothered with this melee warfare, except maybe for ceremonial reasons. It's worth reading the whole article. If you've ever read any of Iain Bank's books you'll definitely appreciate it.
- taneq 3y agoDon't they have some kind of small scale force field technology that stops anything (eg. bullets) moving above a certain speed? iirc there was a duel where Paul Atreides was consistently a tiny bit slow on his attacks, due to his training in aristocratic duelling where everyone has personal shields, which was interpreted as him deliberately toying with his opponent. For bonus points, energy weapons weren't really used because if one hit a shield, it would cause an explosion (centered on the energy weapon maybe?) that would take out half a city.
- xarope 3y agoOK this was too long and painful to read (esp with the background issues). My 2 cents on why you should like Iain M. Banks (for SciFi, aka Iain Banks for fiction, RIP): - AI ships with cool names
- rsynnott 3y agoThat, in itself, says something about the society, though (or, at least, it was clearly intended that way).
- arethuza 3y agoI think the cool ship names was almost certainly influenced by Banks' father being in the Royal Navy/Admiralty and the RN having its own line in cool ship names... at least historically. I think I heard him say this at a talk, but it was a while ago so can't be sure...
- angry_octet 3y agoA favourite of mine: GCU Poke It With A Stick I also like the name Mistakes Were Made but I don't think it's an official name in the cannon. https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_spacecraft https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_spacecraft
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- wanderingbit 3y agoThis was a great in-depth exploration of some of the ideas from Banks' books that I thought deserved a deeper drive. Even though he was writing in the 80's Banks has a lot of foresight into how modern tech such as AI could result in a society like The Culture. It's definitely utopian, but to the author of this blog post's credit it comes with a subtle lack of meaning that some would find unbearable. Reading this blog post gave me insight into our my own (Western) culture, and modernity. What happens as we move away from ascribed identities, like be born and dying a feudal serf, to achieved identities garnered from the actions we choose in our lives? I laughed at the jibe about the 2 ways a modern person finds meaning; either embracing their Celtic heritage or going full memeplex! The website design is unreadable, except if you highlight sections of the text which make it straightforward to read. No idea how you'd read this on mobile, though.
- crabmusket 3y agoFirefox mobile has a pretty good reader mode. I wish Chrome would do the same.
- high_5 3y ago[flagged]
- ljosifov 3y agoTo the rescue: Firefox reader mode, or NoScript block (default) JS for domain www.sciphijournal.org - makes it readable for me again. What were the site creators thinking??
- throwuwu 3y agoI always had the impression that the lack of meaning in The Culture was fairly overtly portrayed with many side stories and the fact that the main story line always had to follow some special operation outside The Culture in order to be interesting.
- MichaelZuo 3y agoIn fact several of the main characters literally call out that 'lack of meaning'.
- Cryptoclidus 3y agoFor those struggling to read the text: https://txtify.it/https://www.sciphijournal.org/index.php/2017/11/12/why-the-culture-wins-an-appreciation-of-iain-m-banks/ https://txtify.it/https://www.sciphijournal.org/index.php/20...
- keiferski 3y agoI find that a lot of science fiction tends to project the author's worldview into the future and then comes up with a bunch of magic to explain how it'll inevitably happen. I haven't read any of Banks but based on the article, it pretty much sounds like the same thing on steroids. As (I think) William Gibson said, sci-fi is about the present, not the future. Can anyone recommend sci-fi that doesn't do this, but instead tries to predict the future/near future and present a realistic vision of things, even if it's not precisely what the author hopes would happen? The closest thing I can think of is Children of Men, which is unfortunately a bit too dystopian for me.
- KirillPanov 3y agoChristopher Rowe's The Voluntary State https://nebulas.sfwa.org/nominated-work/the-voluntary-state/ https://nebulas.sfwa.org/nominated-work/the-voluntary-state/ https://www.lexal.net/scifi/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/rowe/rowe1.html https://www.lexal.net/scifi/scifiction/originals/originals_a... Five years ago I would not have called it "realistic", but a lot has changed. Come home, all you commodores, come home...
- pharmakom 3y agoStand in Zanzibar is good - also dystopian, mind The trouble with near future prediction sci fi is that the predictions date quickly!
- matthewdgreen 3y agoStand on Zanzibar is interesting. The Shockwave Rider, as a novel about a future society dominated by an information network, is actually great. And surprisingly predictive if you give it a little bit of credit for when it was written.
- Scarblac 3y agoThis is Banks' own essay on the Culture, in case you really don't want to read the books: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm (another page that can use Firefox's Reader Mode). What the books add to all this theorizing is that they're wildly entertaining. To me, they're the best that modern sci-fi has to offer, and Banks is sorely missed.
- soufron 3y agoLol the culture wins because only an AI could read that page written in black over a black background
- vermilingua 3y agoWritten against a dark background, perhaps?
- hoseja 3y agoI'm not sure if Banks intended them to be (considering how the book ends he might have) but The Affront are way cooler.
- arethuza 3y agoWell he did also write The Wasp Factory.
- gilleain 3y agoHe was good with aliens that have blue/orange morality. My favourite is the exchange in 'The Algebraist' between the big bad villain, who is firing people at the planet in order to 'force' the Dwellers to do what he wants and the alien ambassador, who says (politely) "I do hope you have enough people ... ".
- rsynnott 3y agoOne viewpoint character clearly thinks this as well. I think most of Banks' 'villains' were quite appealing in their way (possibly not the pro-Hell side in Surface Detail; I think that's the closest he came to pure incomprehensible evil.)
- GeoAtreides 3y ago> Affront society is described as being "a never-ending, self-perpetuating holocaust of pain and misery", where the strong prey upon weaker species and individuals. > Among the Affront's technological accomplishments is an aptitude for genetic engineering, which they developed long before spaceflight. They use this skill almost exclusively on 'prey species', which tend to be changed so as to provide greater sport (and opportunity for sadism) during the communal hunts forming a major part of the Affront culture. > One of the few changes to their own species was the redesign of their females to make sex painful for them > "a never-ending, self-perpetuating holocaust of pain and misery" I'm curious: do you honestly believe the Affront are cool?
- hoseja 3y agoSuffering isn't actually wrong by some law of physics, it's just immoral when your morality is slave morality and your highest aspiration is safety and your most important motivator, fear. Affronters are just more alive, more vital, actually trying, actually risking things; than the Culture HR department drones (heh), as comprehended by the ambassador, but it's still weird because the ambassador's actions are viewed from the confused uncomprehending PC perspective throughout the book.
- peterclary 3y agoI met Mr Banks once (empty bookshop signing) and he told me that he wrote the Culture books because he was sick of so much popular SF being “capitalism in space”.
- arethuza 3y agoI discovered the "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism" meme the other week and it still makes me smile - seems like a pretty good description of the Culture and I'm sure Mr Banks would approve.
- rsynnott 3y agoHuh, I always assumed that that one was already in circulation when we was around, but apparently "Fully Automated Luxury Communism" only showed up the year after he died.
- angry_octet 3y agoI missed meeting him at the Edinburgh fringe by 20 minutes and I'm still dejected by that. In the era before selfies and tweeting was a thing, and serendipitous bumping into authors at book fairs was possible.
- jacknews 3y agoI guess the unreadable site is a bug. I'm sure few people here need advice on how to fix/hack this, but here goes; In firefox for example, either use 'reader view' to get a plain page of text, or, select some text, right-click and choose 'inspect', then find the body color attribute, in the styles section of the developer tools panel that pops up, as follows: body { color: #000000; } And edit it from '#000000' to '#fff'.
- Klaster_1 3y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20231016054340/https://www.sciphijournal.org/index.php/2017/11/12/why-the-culture-wins-an-appreciation-of-iain-m-banks/ https://web.archive.org/web/20231016054340/https://www.sciph...
- forgotmypw17 3y agohttps://archive.ph/fL2M9 https://archive.ph/fL2M9
- andrewstuart 3y agoMy favorite Banks sci fi is The Algebraist which isn’t a Culture novel. To give you a micro taste of the story, the villain, the Archimandrite Luceferous, keeps the head of his enemy preserved alive for years after having it taken off surgically after defeating him, hangs it from the ceiling in his office and uses it as a punching bag.
- rsynnott 3y agoIt's almost the opposite of a Culture novel; the mainstream small-c culture is an extremely hierarchical, religious, rather technophobic, pseudo-capitalist society (the Dwellers are arguably a bit more Culture-y). I'm not sure it's clear that Luceferous is even the villain. He's pretty unpleasant, obviously, but almost a side-issue. The other major non-Culture sci-fi novel, Against a Dark Background, is also notably un-Culture-y.
- andrewstuart 3y agoIt’s weird how Banks can casually create a villain character with such depth and richness almost as a side character and discard the character, whereas other sci fi books/movies would build everything around such a character, if they could manage to make one, which they can’t.
- arethuza 3y agoThat makes me think of the Ethnarch Kerian scene from Use of Weapons - which would make a brilliant cold open for a Culture movie.... <sigh>
- andrewstuart 3y agoThere's no need for Culture movies. I don't get why people think great books should be made into movies. Some books just shouldn't. The Culture should never be made into movies, and why would you want to, except for some sort of Hollywood reason.
- globular-toast 3y agoI don't want to read this now because I'm currently in the middle of Use of Weapons. I am enjoying the series so far, even if I find Banks to be quite ruthless and some of the descriptions of pain and suffering hard to read. I usually read hard science fiction and do sometimes wonder if I've accidentally slipped into The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But it's masterful writing and an incredible imagination.
- rsynnott 3y agoUse of Weapons is probably the most extreme example of that in the Culture series, for what it's worth (Surface Detail _may_ be worse, at least in implication).
- globular-toast 3y agoWere you referring to the Hitchhiker's Guide bit, or the rest?
- rsynnott 3y agoThe pain and suffering bit. Most of the rest are less graphic.
- globular-toast 3y agoHmm.. Not sure if I'm already becoming hardened to the violence and stuff, but upon finishing the book I actually found it less difficult than both Consider Phlebas and The Player of Games in that respect. I found the Eaters chapter in Consider one of the most disturbing things I've ever read...
- 0xbadc0de5 3y agoSurface Detail is a fantastic read - by far my favorite of the series. Trouble is that to fully appreciate it means having read all the previous books in the series. Still worth it though.
- automatic6131 3y ago>In the end, I didn’t love Use of Weapons, Absolutely no surprises there. I've read the entire culture series several times. I've read every entry in it at least twice, some more than that. Except Use of Weapons. I only need to read about the "chair" once.
- arethuza 3y ago"But such consummate skill, such ability, such adaptability, such numbing ruthlessness, such a use of weapons when anything could become a weapon..."
- automatic6131 3y agoI didn't say it wasn't great :)
- arethuza 3y agoSorry - was just taking the opportunity to quote UoW. :-)
- hoseja 3y agoIt's the best or at least top three of the series. Maybe I'm desensitized but there hardly is anything gratuitous in the book.
- HelloMcFly 3y agoThis debate is endless and varies by personal taste and what about the novels interests you. Use of Weapons is in the bottom half for me right alongside the one the author liked, Consider Phlebas (though I liked the latter more after reading the rest of the series). It's still my favorite series books though, so don't get me wrong.
- badcppdev 3y agoThings might be horrific even if they aren't gratuitous or even described explicitly in a book.
- goatlover 3y agoIt's interesting to compare the Culture to the Polity in Neil Asher's books, since the Polity is also run by AIs with advanced technology, and comes into conflict with other (alien) civilizations. But it's usually super advanced biotech kind of threats, where human civilization is less advanced.
- noir_lord 3y agoThe way I think about that is simply - the Culture is what I'd want to happen, the Polity is what I'd expect to happen. Banks had grander ideas, Asher has better world building (I'd argue his world building is as good or better than any other sci-fi author - the world of Spatterjay particularly). Having read both series completely multiple times I'd struggle to choose which I prefer (and happily I don't have to).
- goatlover 3y agoGood way to put it. But I'm a little put off by the Culture's hegemonizing swarm tendencies, however enlightened they are as "the Borg". But the Polity has some real nightmare stuff in it.
- noir_lord 3y agoI think both the author and through him The Culture are aware of that risk, it's why he created `Special Circumstances` to provide an outlet (and useful outcomes) for the people (including the AI's and drones here) who really don't want to be a space communist hippy in a post-scarcity economy. Asher has a similar thing with the rogue AI's but his Polity is more centrally directed and unified because of Earth Central been the dominant AI (though some of the rogues do approach EC in terms of raw computing power). Both are my favourite series in sci-fi and it's fascinating that two plausible (within the rules of their own universes) can emerge from fairly similar starting points. That and the Prador are truly horrific protagonists well written, one of the best realisations of what genuinely alien thought processes might be like. From the Contact Wiki > Banks has noted that the perfect society of the Culture creates well-adjusted, content people — who are (for story purposes) rather boring.[2] Therefore, many of the Culture novels deal with outside agents or mercenaries in the employ of Special Circumstances.
- bawolff 3y ago> From a certain perspective, the Culture is not all that different from Star Trek’s Borg. The difference is that Banks tricks the reader into, in effect, sympathizing with the Borg. Its interesting - star trek ds9 actually kind of makes that point in the marquis plot line https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv3Ex5kG2go https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv3Ex5kG2go
- arethuza 3y agoBut the Culture doesn't stop individuals or groups leaving - if anything it seems to support it?
- WJW 3y agoNor does the Culture force individuals or groups into joining, though it is not above meddling in the culture (heh) of other populations to make them (say) stop genociding each other. FWIW, Banks himself stated that exploring how a "perfect" utopia would deal with less enlightened neighbors is a core theme of the series. It's all good and well to provide perfect harmony for all your citizens, but can you truly be said to be "good" if you allow your neighboring civilizations to live in squalor? On the other hand, meddling in the affairs of others has many ethical quandaries as well. Exploring these is what the culture series is all about.
- edgyquant 3y agoThe first book (consider Phlebus) does the opposite. It follows an enemy of the culture and has you believe the culture is just the borg (an empire of machines.). It’s only through the philosophical debates do you come to see the culture as the utopia it is.
- datameta 3y agoThe culture does not forcefully assimilate however, and they add the cultural proclivities of any new member as opposed to breaking it down into its elements to be absorbed and reconstructed.
- ianburrell 3y ago
- andrewstuart 3y agoI strongly recommend the audiobooks of Iain Banks work as read by Peter Kenny or Anton Lesser. Absolute genius, the best audiobooks I’ve heard behind Nicol Williamsons The Hobbit. In particular, listen to Excession and The Algebraist. I never tire of the audiobook of the Algebraist, amazing. Anton Lesser reading The Algebraist is the strongest case for why AI should never be used for narrating audiobooks.
- baq 3y agoIf you like scifi audiobooks, try The Expanse.
- andrewstuart 3y agoI have the first one, it’s good I enjoy it. Great recommendation.
- mcculley 3y agoWhat makes you think computers will never be better than humans at reading books aloud?
- andrewstuart 3y agoPeter Kenny reading Excession and Anton Lesser reading The Algebraist and Nicol Williamson reading The Hobbit.
- mcculley 3y agoMany spoke similarly of Garry Kasparov and Lee Sedol.
- robertlagrant 3y agoI'd love to hear Gary Kasparov's reading of The Hobbit.
- 3y ago
- Lastodon 3y agoHeinlein's law: Arguing that a given scifi author's view of future society makes sense will always essentially reduce to arguing that the author's politics are correct.
- HelloMcFly 3y agoI disagree. I think one can see plausibility in multiple interpretations of the future. The Culture "makes sense" to me in the same way that The Expanse's view of intra-system colonization efforts. I find the capitalist nature of the world in Pandora's Star "makes sense" same as the Culture. To me it's about seeing the possibility of a future built on a recognizable seed of plausibility for "what could be."
- rsynnott 3y agoI don't think that's _really_ what the article's doing, but in any case such arguments are generally about whether the author's view is _internally consistent_, rather than a historical inevitability.
- pseudolus 3y agoOn a tangent there are two Iain Banks related books that might be of interest. The first is an academic study and overview of Banks "Iain M. Banks (Modern Masters of Science Fiction)" and, more particularly, his culture books: https://www.amazon.com/Banks-Modern-Masters-Science-Fiction/dp/0252041011/ref=sr_1_1?crid=32CDW1D3Y34EP&keywords=paul+kincaid+banks&qid=1697457410&sprefix=paul+kincaid+banks%2Caps%2C81&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.f5122f16-c3e8-4386-bf32-63e904010ad0 https://www.amazon.com/Banks-Modern-Masters-Science-Fiction/... The second book "The Culture: The Drawings" is slated to be released in early November (2023) and is a collection of drawings by Iain Banks that, per Amazon, details "the universe of his bestselling Culture novels": https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Drawings-Iain-M-Banks/dp/031657287X/ref=sr_1_6?crid=MW4XGBT3WR5P&keywords=Iain+banks&qid=1697457694&sprefix=iain+banks+%2Caps%2C59&sr=8-6 https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Drawings-Iain-M-Banks/dp/0316...
- tempaway23141 3y agoReminds me, someone on Reddit did a whole series of Player of Games images using Midjourney Part 1 https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/1109hmz/the_player_of_games_by_iain_m_banks_part_1/ https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/1109hmz/the_pla... Part 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/111j7hc/the_player_of_games_by_iain_m_banks_part_2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/111j7hc/the_pla... Part 3 https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/11428xm/the_player_of_games_by_iain_m_banks_part_3/ https://www.reddit.com/r/midjourney/comments/11428xm/the_pla...
- rsynnott 3y agoI'm just glad they didn't do Phlebas; I could live without seeing an image generator's attempts at that island scene...
- inhumantsar 3y agoI'd like to see the body modder from Hydrogen Sonata and his "53 is the ideal number of cocks".
- 3y ago
- chrisweekly 3y agoFor anyone thinking of giving these excellent novels a try, they can be read in any order but IMHO Player of Games is a great place to start.
- another2another 3y agoI would say Consider Phlebas, start at the beginning - and you get to meet Idirans! Shame they didn't really appear in any other books as the Idiran war is so often mentioned as an important event in the Culture's history.
- lamontcg 3y agoI started with Consider Phlebas and never finished it, never read any more.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoThis is the biggest practical problem imo with the series. The idiran war and its consequences is the single most important event in the series overall, and is directly related to a lot of the other books. But consider phlebas is the only book directly about it, and is also the worst culture book by far. "Worst" is a value judgement obviously, but I know this view isn't rare. At the very least its pacing is uneven and the tone is very different from the other culture books. (the eaters??) Even if you like it, in some ways it is out of place with the rest. I only recommend people start with it if they've already decided to read the whole series and won't be dissuaded by a rough start. For an introduction book almost anything is better.
- another2another 3y agoYeh, I guess that's a fair take. But re-reading it and _Against a Dark Background_ (not even tangentially a Culture book I know) tweaked my nostalgia a bit and I found I quite enjoyed them in ways I didn't first time around.
- rsynnott 3y agoConsider Phlebas is a perfectly fine sci-fi novel, but IMO it is the least compelling of the series, and not a good intro to the Culture.
- codeulike 3y agoA Few Notes On The Culture, which Iain M Banks posted to rec.arts.sf.written on 10 Aug 1994 should be much higher up in this thread http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm
- rsynnott 3y ago> The Culture is a group-civilisation formed from seven or eight humanoid species, space-living elements of which established a loose federation approximately nine thousand years ago. The ships and habitats which formed the original alliance required each others' support to pursue and maintain their independence from the political power structures - principally those of mature nation-states and autonomous commercial concerns - they had evolved from. This was... kind of retconned out in Hydrogen Sonata, right? The formation of the Culture there was depicted as between nation-states, at least in the case of Gzilt.
- datameta 3y agoHmm... Are the Gzilt not simply one of the humanoid species? Or perhaps the Culture at the time of prospective Gzilt merger already contained the rest of the constituent groups?
- rsynnott 3y agoAs far as I remember, it's the Gzilt _government_ negotiating in the formation of the Culture, though, not a breakaway group as implied in the above.
- inhumantsar 3y agoI just finished rereading this and it's always framed as the civilization. For the gzilt it would have been the government but it's not necessarily the case for all others that joined.
- Abekkus 3y agoLet's be clear, we'd need some miraculous corrective action to put our world on a path to the Culture. That is not where we are currently headed.
- msabalau 3y agoYou can find out the story of our world in the Culture series in the novella: "The State of the Art"
- scotty79 3y ago> That is not where we are currently headed. He smiled. “My dear girl, in Culture history alone it has been about nine thousand years since a human, marvellous though they are in so many other ways, could do anything useful in a serious, big-guns space battle other than admire the pretty explosions … or in some cases contribute to them.” “Contribute?” “Chemicals; colours. You know.” -- I'm not sure why this quote came to my mind, maybe it's ongoing wars and things like Iron Beam and Rheimetal shaped charge antidrone gun and shaped charge anti-tank flying mines and munitions actively choosing targets.