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You start an EU competing service with the top EU banks and money lenders. You build a bunch of credit card infrastructure. You tie your infrastructure to the m

You start an EU competing service with the top EU banks and money lenders. You build a bunch of credit card infrastructure. You tie your infrastructure to the merchant systems and get gateways to implement your protocol. Not exactly easy but it’s not impossible. An app based system could probably do it and force ApplePay and GooglePay to use it in those areas. They will if it’s in place.

wkat4242 3y ago
Well the whole credit/lending part isn't even needed. In Europe this is only a marginal thing and most people just have debit cards.
- reactordev 3y ago
  You need capital to lend though or you need lender groups you can securitize. That’s the “credit” part of Visa/Mastercard. The concept can easily be done all digital. IANAE on payments but pretty sure if you build it (and connect it), it would work.
  - c0pium 3y ago
    What you wrote is not responsive to the comment you are replying to. Whether it would work is irrelevant if it’s bad product market fit.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  There are advantages to credit. For example, the money remains in your hands until you pay your credit card bill, so if there is a dispute, fraud, or overcharge, you don't have to fight and wait to get your money back. Also, some businesses, such as car rental companies, won't provide services to debit card holders. Also, it's a free [edit: zero-interest, not free] loan (if you pay credit card bills in full); you get some small marginal revenue from the money you keep for up to a month.
  - quicklime 3y ago
    There are some benefits, but it does complicate the transaction significantly. It's no longer between two parties (a consumer and a merchant), there are now at least two more: a lender and a credit bureau. And that's why we're in this mess to begin with. Credit card transactions are reported to credit bureaus (from a quick web search, it looks like debit card transactions aren't) and this normalizes the idea that your financial data should be shared freely amongst finance companies. There's really no such thing as a free lunch, or a free loan. When someone offers you one, it's good to understand how you're going to be paying for it.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Good points, especially the last one.
    - louloulou 3y ago
      > It's no longer between two parties (a consumer and a merchant) A cash transaction is between 2 parties. A debit card transaction is between 5: consumer, consumer's bank, merchant, merchant's bank, payment network/card provider.
    - wayfinder 3y ago
      Credit reporting makes getting loans easier because lenders are more willing to give loans when they can look up your credit rating instead playing it safe and declining you because they have nothing to judge the risk with. You also get fraud protection. It’s not free, but you’re not necessarily paying for it. The main concern is that some people are definitely paying for it disproportionally more than others.
      - etiennebausson 3y ago
        I would disagree, as things stand, getting a loan is easier if you have a good credit rating, but it is a deformation of the space. If there was no credit reporting, the lender would still need to loan just as much. They would base their decisions on other factors (down payment, wages, employ stability, assets, ...) rather than the extremely invasive credit rating.
- tzs 3y ago
  It depends on the country [1]. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/968220/credit-card-ownership-rate-european-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/968220/credit-card-owner...
anotherhue 3y ago
It has been tried * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) * https://www.reuters.com/technology/europes-planned-rival-visa-mastercard-appeals-public-funding-2021-11-16/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/europes-planned-rival-vis... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(credit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(credit_card)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- zeristor 3y ago
  You forgot the Access Credit card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_(credit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_(credit_card) They spent all that money on advertising, I still remember it, but for what? This and Harding and Hobbs
  - pasc1878 3y ago
    Eurocard and Access got merged into MasterCard So European cards worked but the owners ie banks wanted global ones.
    - fsckboy 3y ago
      Visa and Mastercard are umbrella organizations that at bottom work through banks; the card doesn't just say Visa or MC, it also has a bank on it, and the front part of the card number is a bank identifier. So, there's no reason that European banks can't also be part of the same network, and presumably they are.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        European banks definitely issue Visa and Mastercard cards (and in many countries, there isn't even any local alternative for card payments). But given the network effect, Visa and Mastercard have a lot of power over both issuing and acquiring banks. Issuers have at least a choice out of these two; acquirers just have to accept whatever their customer puts on the counter at payment time (or lose ~50% of their card-paying customers). In other words, participation is (relatively) easy; getting some amount of control, let alone autonomy, is almost impossible – again due to the network effect.
tflinton 3y ago
That takes an enormous amount of frozen capital. For regulation reasons MasterCard (and other networks) need to keep huge cash on hand to cover stand-ins and other network blips.
nly 3y ago
Could you not just use the same protocol?
herbst 3y ago
We have alternative real time payment systems that make it very clear that we do not need a fill in replacement for credit cards. The system we use in Switzerland (Twint) has everything you'd need for barely any fee and real privacy laws, for everything else and over border transactions there is SEPA. There is simply no need for anything else than that. Nobody is looking to use Google pay or apple pay when we already have a perfectly fine system with way lower fees.
kalleboo 3y ago
Here in Japan, the run-around the system has been QR code payments. Those apps are easy to make and don't have to get any special system access to NFC hardware. Small merchants can just use their existing phones or get iPads, although the payments are now also integrated into merchant systems and the standard card readers in shops now also have a camera to scan QR codes.

wkat4242 3y ago

Well the whole credit/lending part isn't even needed. In Europe this is only a marginal thing and most people just have debit cards.

reactordev 3y ago
You need capital to lend though or you need lender groups you can securitize. That’s the “credit” part of Visa/Mastercard. The concept can easily be done all digital. IANAE on payments but pretty sure if you build it (and connect it), it would work.
- c0pium 3y ago
  What you wrote is not responsive to the comment you are replying to. Whether it would work is irrelevant if it’s bad product market fit.
wolverine876 3y ago
There are advantages to credit. For example, the money remains in your hands until you pay your credit card bill, so if there is a dispute, fraud, or overcharge, you don't have to fight and wait to get your money back. Also, some businesses, such as car rental companies, won't provide services to debit card holders. Also, it's a free [edit: zero-interest, not free] loan (if you pay credit card bills in full); you get some small marginal revenue from the money you keep for up to a month.
- quicklime 3y ago
  There are some benefits, but it does complicate the transaction significantly. It's no longer between two parties (a consumer and a merchant), there are now at least two more: a lender and a credit bureau. And that's why we're in this mess to begin with. Credit card transactions are reported to credit bureaus (from a quick web search, it looks like debit card transactions aren't) and this normalizes the idea that your financial data should be shared freely amongst finance companies. There's really no such thing as a free lunch, or a free loan. When someone offers you one, it's good to understand how you're going to be paying for it.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    Good points, especially the last one.
  - louloulou 3y ago
    > It's no longer between two parties (a consumer and a merchant) A cash transaction is between 2 parties. A debit card transaction is between 5: consumer, consumer's bank, merchant, merchant's bank, payment network/card provider.
  - wayfinder 3y ago
    Credit reporting makes getting loans easier because lenders are more willing to give loans when they can look up your credit rating instead playing it safe and declining you because they have nothing to judge the risk with. You also get fraud protection. It’s not free, but you’re not necessarily paying for it. The main concern is that some people are definitely paying for it disproportionally more than others.
    - etiennebausson 3y ago
      I would disagree, as things stand, getting a loan is easier if you have a good credit rating, but it is a deformation of the space. If there was no credit reporting, the lender would still need to loan just as much. They would base their decisions on other factors (down payment, wages, employ stability, assets, ...) rather than the extremely invasive credit rating.
tzs 3y ago
It depends on the country [1]. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/968220/credit-card-ownership-rate-european-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/968220/credit-card-owner...

anotherhue 3y ago

It has been tried * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_(debit_card) * https://www.reuters.com/technology/europes-planned-rival-visa-mastercard-appeals-public-funding-2021-11-16/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/europes-planned-rival-vis... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(credit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(credit_card)

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
zeristor 3y ago
You forgot the Access Credit card: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_(credit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_(credit_card) They spent all that money on advertising, I still remember it, but for what? This and Harding and Hobbs
- pasc1878 3y ago
  Eurocard and Access got merged into MasterCard So European cards worked but the owners ie banks wanted global ones.
  - fsckboy 3y ago
    Visa and Mastercard are umbrella organizations that at bottom work through banks; the card doesn't just say Visa or MC, it also has a bank on it, and the front part of the card number is a bank identifier. So, there's no reason that European banks can't also be part of the same network, and presumably they are.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      European banks definitely issue Visa and Mastercard cards (and in many countries, there isn't even any local alternative for card payments). But given the network effect, Visa and Mastercard have a lot of power over both issuing and acquiring banks. Issuers have at least a choice out of these two; acquirers just have to accept whatever their customer puts on the counter at payment time (or lose ~50% of their card-paying customers). In other words, participation is (relatively) easy; getting some amount of control, let alone autonomy, is almost impossible – again due to the network effect.

tflinton 3y ago

That takes an enormous amount of frozen capital. For regulation reasons MasterCard (and other networks) need to keep huge cash on hand to cover stand-ins and other network blips.

nly 3y ago

Could you not just use the same protocol?

herbst 3y ago

We have alternative real time payment systems that make it very clear that we do not need a fill in replacement for credit cards. The system we use in Switzerland (Twint) has everything you'd need for barely any fee and real privacy laws, for everything else and over border transactions there is SEPA. There is simply no need for anything else than that. Nobody is looking to use Google pay or apple pay when we already have a perfectly fine system with way lower fees.

kalleboo 3y ago

Here in Japan, the run-around the system has been QR code payments. Those apps are easy to make and don't have to get any special system access to NFC hardware. Small merchants can just use their existing phones or get iPads, although the payments are now also integrated into merchant systems and the standard card readers in shops now also have a camera to scan QR codes.