4 ms·

In San Francisco restaurants, I’ve seen this tactic applied liberally. Maybe AirBnb and DoorDash are rubbing off on them:) A common one sees the restaurant cha

by eiopa 3y ago

In San Francisco restaurants, I’ve seen this tactic applied liberally. Maybe AirBnb and DoorDash are rubbing off on them:) A common one sees the restaurant charge you separately for the employee health benefits, cynically marketing it to consumers as “healthy SF” and “SF health mandate”. What’s sort of fun is that like cryptocurrencies, you can always materialize new ones out of thin air. One popular establishment demands that you pay a separate “carbon offset fee”.

workingdog 3y ago
"In January 2008, the voter-approved San Francisco Health Care Ordinance went into effect, requiring any business with more than 20 employees to set aside money for their workers' health care." It's ok for business to tell their customers why prices are increasing via line item.
- c22 3y ago
  No it isn't. The cost of my widget isn't broken out to material sourcing, transportation, and other overhead. Doing it this way causes unnecessary mental gymnastics and is done for the sole purpose of creating political pressure. I don't mind companies having and sharing political opinions, but keep it off my receipt. Just put up a sign that says "prices have increased due to new regulation" and feel free to hand out pamphlets decrying the state of things, don't be disingenuous about your motives.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    Exactly. If the SF restaurants OP mentions are not also itemizing all their other taxes and expenses on their customers' bills, yet singling out the “SF health mandate” one, it's pretty clear that they are just using those bills to make a passive aggressive political complaint. Nobody cries and moans publicly in front of customers when their business license fees rise 5% or when the cost of their utilities go up, but suddenly when there is a mandate to make their employees' lives marginally better, they weep their crocodile tears all over the customers' checks.
  - hyperhopper 3y ago
    Not the sole purpose of creating political pressure: there is also the benefit to business of showing a customer a lower price and psychology easing them into spending more.
- MatekCopatek 3y ago
  Sure, if they actually increase the prices written on the menu. But the way I understand the parent comment, they didn't, they just tacked them on as extra fees at the end.
  - eiopa 3y ago
    Exactly this
- lukeschlather 3y ago
  That's fine. But it makes sense to treat putting a price on the menu that doesn't include that fee as fraud.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Why stop there? A restaurant can have a line item in the bill for the customer’s share of the cost of: - rent of the restaurant building - the water bill - the pizza oven - the owner’s BMW List everything! Why not?
  - polygamous_bat 3y ago
    Yes, and as an added bonus, following the same reasoning, the restaurant can put everything on the menu as $0! Isn’t that a brave new world.
Teever 3y ago
Is it actually something mandated by the city? If it isnt that sounds pretty damn fraudlent to me. We have a similar issue where I am from because businesses are not required to give tips to their employees. Most people dont know about this law and a reasonable person would think that the money would go to the employees because that's what the word 'tip' means. So in my mind any restaurant that doesn't have a sign next to the tip jar spelling out who the money is going to in this situation is commiting fraud. The name they're choosing is intentional and the purpose is to trick you into spending your money in a way you otherwise would'nt. That's a crime.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  What law does it break and is there some precedent that this case breaks it? None of this sounds like a crime. In terms of “SF Cares”, it sounds like its for the healthcare ordinance the city of SF passed.
  - jprete 3y ago
    Fraud. You’re advertising a service for one price, accepting a contract for service on that price, then charging a higher price.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Usually there's some little footnote on the menu or sign on the door stating the fee, so it would be impossible for a prosecutor to prove fraud. But this kind of bullshit is one of the reasons that I don't visit SF as much as I used to.
      - paulmd 3y ago
        > Usually there's some little footnote on the menu or sign on the door stating the fee, so it would be impossible for a prosecutor to prove fraud. which is, of course, an outcome of the current regulatory regime. US prices are not advertised with taxes included either - even locally, where it is obvious what the nexus is. But this is not legal in the EU. We can outlaw random footnotes being an excuse for random fees too - there is a number on the menu, that should be the price of the item. Require all prices to be inclusive of fees/taxes etc so that people can see the full, final price before they get emotionally invested/etc. Frankly this probably would result in lower total prices for consumers - people decide to buy based on the advertised number, people are not (reliably) rational/efficient about purchasing decisions, especially in situations with highly opaque information (is the other restaurant going to tack on an even higher fee? etc). Forcing all the fees to be rolled into the final price is, just like healthcare, a win for enabling people to have the most information to make the most accurate decisions, which helps drive costs down.
skymast 3y ago
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by eiopa 3y ago

workingdog 3y ago

"In January 2008, the voter-approved San Francisco Health Care Ordinance went into effect, requiring any business with more than 20 employees to set aside money for their workers' health care." It's ok for business to tell their customers why prices are increasing via line item.

c22 3y ago
No it isn't. The cost of my widget isn't broken out to material sourcing, transportation, and other overhead. Doing it this way causes unnecessary mental gymnastics and is done for the sole purpose of creating political pressure. I don't mind companies having and sharing political opinions, but keep it off my receipt. Just put up a sign that says "prices have increased due to new regulation" and feel free to hand out pamphlets decrying the state of things, don't be disingenuous about your motives.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Exactly. If the SF restaurants OP mentions are not also itemizing all their other taxes and expenses on their customers' bills, yet singling out the “SF health mandate” one, it's pretty clear that they are just using those bills to make a passive aggressive political complaint. Nobody cries and moans publicly in front of customers when their business license fees rise 5% or when the cost of their utilities go up, but suddenly when there is a mandate to make their employees' lives marginally better, they weep their crocodile tears all over the customers' checks.
- hyperhopper 3y ago
  Not the sole purpose of creating political pressure: there is also the benefit to business of showing a customer a lower price and psychology easing them into spending more.
MatekCopatek 3y ago
Sure, if they actually increase the prices written on the menu. But the way I understand the parent comment, they didn't, they just tacked them on as extra fees at the end.
- eiopa 3y ago
  Exactly this
lukeschlather 3y ago
That's fine. But it makes sense to treat putting a price on the menu that doesn't include that fee as fraud.
ryandrake 3y ago
Why stop there? A restaurant can have a line item in the bill for the customer’s share of the cost of: - rent of the restaurant building - the water bill - the pizza oven - the owner’s BMW List everything! Why not?
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  Yes, and as an added bonus, following the same reasoning, the restaurant can put everything on the menu as $0! Isn’t that a brave new world.

Teever 3y ago

Is it actually something mandated by the city? If it isnt that sounds pretty damn fraudlent to me. We have a similar issue where I am from because businesses are not required to give tips to their employees. Most people dont know about this law and a reasonable person would think that the money would go to the employees because that's what the word 'tip' means. So in my mind any restaurant that doesn't have a sign next to the tip jar spelling out who the money is going to in this situation is commiting fraud. The name they're choosing is intentional and the purpose is to trick you into spending your money in a way you otherwise would'nt. That's a crime.

nonethewiser 3y ago
What law does it break and is there some precedent that this case breaks it? None of this sounds like a crime. In terms of “SF Cares”, it sounds like its for the healthcare ordinance the city of SF passed.
- jprete 3y ago
  Fraud. You’re advertising a service for one price, accepting a contract for service on that price, then charging a higher price.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Usually there's some little footnote on the menu or sign on the door stating the fee, so it would be impossible for a prosecutor to prove fraud. But this kind of bullshit is one of the reasons that I don't visit SF as much as I used to.
    - paulmd 3y ago
      > Usually there's some little footnote on the menu or sign on the door stating the fee, so it would be impossible for a prosecutor to prove fraud. which is, of course, an outcome of the current regulatory regime. US prices are not advertised with taxes included either - even locally, where it is obvious what the nexus is. But this is not legal in the EU. We can outlaw random footnotes being an excuse for random fees too - there is a number on the menu, that should be the price of the item. Require all prices to be inclusive of fees/taxes etc so that people can see the full, final price before they get emotionally invested/etc. Frankly this probably would result in lower total prices for consumers - people decide to buy based on the advertised number, people are not (reliably) rational/efficient about purchasing decisions, especially in situations with highly opaque information (is the other restaurant going to tack on an even higher fee? etc). Forcing all the fees to be rolled into the final price is, just like healthcare, a win for enabling people to have the most information to make the most accurate decisions, which helps drive costs down.

skymast 3y ago

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