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Decline in independent activity as a cause of decline in child mental health
- theGnuMe 3y agoHonestly it also a cause of decline in parental mental health too.
- baron816 3y agoThe Coddling of the American Mind is a good book on this topic https://www.thecoddling.com/ https://www.thecoddling.com/.
- scaramanga 3y agoIt's on a different topic. ie. That if people speak up for themselves, or they want to address unfairness or inequality in their society, it's because their parents hugged them when they cried as babies, instead of ignoring them, or whatever you're supposed to do to "toughen them up" (ie. turn them into terrified adults, washed up in middle age, who see any new youth movement as a life-threatening trend that must be stopped).
- yomly 3y agoWhat does ignoring babies when they cry have to do with them growing up to be terrified adults?
- Apocryphon 3y agoSupposed downsides to "crying it out" https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201... https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp.13390 https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jcpp....
- deepsun 3y agoMy parents had several children, and they always say that they noticed behavioral differences even in the first baby months. In other words, some behavioral traits or impulses are more due to nature, not nurtured by their parents. Some babies cry more, some less, some eat more, some less, even if you approach them equally.
- johnnyworker 3y ago> it's because their parents hugged them when they cried as babies, instead of ignoring them, or whatever you're supposed to do to "toughen them up" Where have I heard that before.. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/harsh-nazi-parenting-guidelines-may-still-affect-german-children-of-today1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/harsh-nazi-parent... > In "The German Mother and Her First Child", Haarer wrote, “It is best if the child is in his own room, where he can be left alone.” If the child starts to cry, it is best to ignore him: “Whatever you do, do not pick the child up from his bed, carry him around, cradle him, stroke him, hold him on your lap, or even nurse him.”
- Lacerda69 3y agothe worst advice
- baron816 3y agoWhat? I don’t think you read the book.
- rudnoiujk 3y ago[flagged]
- mainpassathome 3y agodefinitely not late stage capitalism in action
- ohdannyboy 3y agoCan we just all agree it's the people and ideology we don't like messing everything up here? As long as we don't get more specific we can find some common ground.
- Apocryphon 3y agoThe atomization of American society caused by the decline of church attendance, and the decline of unions.
- ohdannyboy 3y agoChurch I understand because they often function like a small-town community, but unions? Maybe I'm missing something because I'm also not sure what your reply has to do with mine.
- Apocryphon 3y agoRobert Putnam discusses the decline of unions leading to disconnections in the workplace in Bowling Alone, chapter 5. Though certainly, the alienation between workers accompanies other forms of atomization in American society, and is more of yet another effect than a cause.
- btilly 3y agoThis is something that free range parenting advocates have been talking about for a long time. See https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/03/641256596/to-raise-confident-independent-kids-some-parents-are-trying-to-let-grow https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/09/03/6412565.... For me one of the most compelling data points wasn't even a parenting reference. It was https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Americas/dp/1589795474 https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Amer.... First published in the mid-1990s, the chapters on the children of millionaires found that the more support millionaires gave to their children, the worse that those children turned out. Armed with that theory, I've always doubted the wisdom of extreme helicopter parenting that has become popular since.
- scaramanga 3y agoI'd love to read the papers cited there without having to buy that book. I wonder if what is defined as "support" is actually, meddling, undermining, and pressurzing children into fulfilling the parents needs.
- sarkhan 3y agoWell, it comes a lot of from the good stuff that involved parenting does. In other words, even taking kids to school in a car instead them walking (or at least on the bike, but their own feet still involved, therefore they are themselves 100% in control in going to school) is the support that is not the in the list of "support" but will be in the long run. I should mention, I do recognize the time constraints of current society.
- btilly 3y agoThe book wasn't a compilation of independent research papers. It was produced out of a compilation of interviews done to better understand millionaires. Support was defined by the wealthy parent providing financial support, whether through a stipend, gifts, or whatever. It turned out that, despite the best of intentions, such support almost inevitably wound up with destructive emotional dynamics.
- earthscienceman 3y agoWait. Does this pass for science in these fields, psychology and medicine? They summarize various statistics from prior papers as if they are trends across space and time (hello sample bias, are there papers that contradict their claims they are omitting because it doesn't fit their thesis?) and then make broad conclusions based on anecdotal evidence and sweeping theories. This should barely pass as a "kids these days" like-and-share from your grandpa on Facebook that has a bunch of comments from Cheryl about how true it is. Which is tragic, because it's something anyone who spends time with children can figure out... that independence makes for a happy child. But to be published in a journal I thought the point was to find rigorous evidence for such things, not muddy the waters further with vague specious claims.
- uoaei 3y agoYou've evidently never heard of a meta-analysis.
- b112 3y agoIn the real Foundation books, which the TV series barely resembles, this was part of the galactic empire's decline. With so many studies done, over tens of thousands of years, on millions of planets, each with hundreds of millions of people, there was an immense load of prior work. And meta-analysis was where all research ended up. Just read a bunch of papers, summarize them, and write a new paper. Scientific research had devolved to the point, that no one knew how to do new research.
- caconym_ 3y agoDespite Asimov's opinion on the matter, it seems that in reality the meta-analysis is a useful tool for understanding the de facto scientific consensus on some topic beyond the scope of a single paper/study.
- b800h 3y agoI think the original naive critique is valid though. What if the consensus is wrong? But of course, it's better than one random study, unless you particularly trust that researcher and none of the others.
- mcpackieh 3y agoSometimes people get so tangled up in half-baked theories and rationalizations that they need to be reminded that water is wet. It should be common sense that lack of autonomy will mess kids up, but some people just don't get it. A refusal to tolerate any risk or uncertainty ironically ends up doing more damage than whatever it is they fear.
- kitanata 3y ago[dead]
- adrianN 3y agoHow are children in car-centric societies supposed to be independent when they need adults to drive them to places?
- Apocryphon 3y agoThey could bike, but how many neighborhoods are safely bikeable?
- b112 3y agoEvery one I've ever seen. Most places I've seen, yes in the US, have bike paths, and houses are typically in a separate area from main thoroughfares. Why wouldn't a kid bike to a friend's house, or a local park?
- Apocryphon 3y agoNot all bike paths exist in quiet suburbs. Some exist along busy main roads, which make them dangerous even for adult riders.
- asveikau 3y agoI suspect this depends on a North American centric definition of "busy main road" and "bike path".
- b112 3y agoThat's not really a bike path, now is it? It's a painted lane on a road. I've never been in a place where I had to take a "busy main road" to get around locally. Cross it sometimes, sure, which can be done at a light. This sort of highlights the problem. Over-protectiveness, by examining the worst that can happen, and the worst scenario.
- Apocryphon 3y agoWell, frankly, perhaps you haven't been to that many places.
- ilrwbwrkhv 3y agoParents shuffling around kids from activity to activity in their minivans is the bane of present day kids. The problem is that cities are so car centric. A good way of alleviating some of it is to do at least 3 hours of independent self play a day.
- barrysteve 3y agoI don't understand this. We were free-to-play, but it was not unstructured. Quite the opposite, you had to be somewhere on time, in a heirarchy or school structure and there were teacher imposed rules. I miss that heirarchy more than I'd care to admit. The endless cycles of milking the good while it's good, is an offensive and time wasting replacement for what used to be a well-timed culture. It is deeply humorous to see fear of traffic and crime listed as a valid reason to keep kids inside. When you list fear of data leaks as a valid reason for privacy from surveillance, people discount you. So much emotional picking and choosing lately. Parentalism is destroying the West, make no mistake, "security" is a massively overrated parasite, sucking the life out of it's inhabitants. Get off my back.
- trealira 3y agoTypically, unstructured play is defined as playing without predefined rules or adult guidance, like playing on a playground or drawing pictures. The child is left to their own devices. Structured play has predefined rules; for example, playing Monopoly, role-playing, or cooking with an adult's help. Although you had to follow rules in a school setting, it wouldn't necessarily make your play structured, since you always have to follow those rules anyway; it's not like playing Monopoly, where the playing itself is governed by additional rules, and everyone takes turns, and follows a set structure.
- mikewarot 3y agoI blame Otis Toole[1], who confessed (and later recanted) to the kidnapping and murder of Adam Walsh. The hysteria Adam's father was able to create in the United States is astounding. I grew up before that happened, and yet, when it was my turn as a parent, I was still freaked out the first time my child wanted to walk home from a friends house, 2 blocks away about 10 years ago. When I was a kid, we were told to go outside and play until the street lights came on. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottis_Toole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottis_Toole
- Apocryphon 3y agoYeah, this discussion thread so far accounts how sensationalist media covered true crime cases. Child abductions, serial killers, Satanic panic led to cultural shifts where suddenly the 'burbs aren't safe anymore and stranger danger was amplified and everywhere.
- theGnuMe 3y agoWe can't intrinsically estimate probabilities well. We are more worried about child abduction than a kid getting killed by a car.
- theGnuMe 3y agoAlso the rise of Cable news. I think we are close to peak information saturation and it basically overloads our nervous systems.
- jrnichols 3y agoI remember a massive shift in my parents behavior (along with friends parents) after that movie aired. Previously normal things like letting your kids play in the toy section of Sears while parents shopped elsewhere quickly ended.
- davidkuennen 3y agoWhen I was little (20 years ago), I left the house in the morning and came back in the evening. My parents didn't really care what I did. It was the same for all the children in our small village. We played in the forest, created tree homes, tunnels and much more. It was an incredible time which I'm certain helped me a lot in my development. Granted, I was growing up on a farm in Germany. There wasn't much traffic or other "dangers".
- okeuro49 3y agoThe "Not Just Bikes" channel on YouTube offers good analysis on how city planning is detrimental to the independence of children and young people.
- n2dasun 3y agoYes! I worry all the time about how much time my kids are spending at home and I try to encourage them to spend time with friends
- Huppie 3y agoA bit late to the party but I knew I've read this earlier on Hacker News but I couldn't find it earlier. This paper (with slightly different styling) is linked at the bottom of the article 'Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis' [0] discussed here [1] a few months ago. [0] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-play-deficit https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-play-deficit [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36910256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36910256