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“CIA’s leadership is committed to being as open with the public as possible,” Then they've got a long way to go. Everybody already knew that the Shah's coup wa

“CIA’s leadership is committed to being as open with the public as possible,” Then they've got a long way to go. Everybody already knew that the Shah's coup was planned and backed by the CIA. That was part of a long and ugly history of CIA covert operations that have backfired spectacularly. It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. But there was a time that the CIA was responsible for an awful lot of heinous things, and the ousting of Mossadegh is just one. Maybe, just maybe, they can issue a long string of mea culpas and the US can begin to repair its absolutely horrific reputation in the Middle East, Latin America, and elsewhere. But it took seven decades to come clean about this one, and it's going to take many more decades to undo the damage it did.

cempaka 3y ago
> I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. Probably because the people who theorized that there had been a conspiracy turned out to be correct, and the usual bromide objections ("someone would have talked," "more than 50 people can never keep a secret," "the government just isn't that competent," etc) were shown to be entirely false.
- downWidOutaFite 3y ago
  Conspiracy theorists can be wrong about 100 things before they're right about one thing. They're useless for understanding the current state of the world.
  - AwaAwa 3y ago
    Until that percentage starts to improve dramatically like in the last 5 years.
  - gustavus 3y ago
    Exactly after all the conspiracy theorists were only right about - Iraq WMDs - MkUltra - The Crack Epidemic - Watergate - Glados - Paperclip - Robert Kennedy car crash - Epstien But they just got lucky a bunch.
    - satvikpendem 3y ago
      Now name the thousands that they aren't right about. Your comment is literally survivorship bias in action.
    - gruez 3y ago
      1. You listed 8 conspiracies. How many false conspiracies (or ones that failed to pan out) are there? If there are 800 of them, then OP isn't exactly wrong. 2. For the ones you listed, were there specific and credible "conspiracy theories" that existed prior to them being discovered/confirmed? Or were there only vague theories of "government doing something shady"?
      - plorg 3y ago
        Then also, which specific conspiracy theories were actually confirmed? Part of the problem is that the kernel of truth in the theory is scaffolded out to "justify" the much broader, wilder claims.
      - t-3 3y ago
        > You listed 8 conspiracies. How many false conspiracies (or ones that failed to pan out) are there? If there are 800 of them, then OP isn't exactly wrong. The set of possible conspiracy theories is infinite. The set believed by any one 'conspiracy theorist' is likely to be far smaller. Lumping in hollow earth, lizardpeople, flatearther, aliens etc with 'government lies about wars' is always a cynical move to avoid legitimate criticism and spread propaganda.
        smegger001 3y ago
        Exsept the believable ones act as gateways to the hard stuff. Its a small mental jump from epsteins pedo island to the DMC being run by satanic communist pedophilias frequenting a pizza shop child brothel. It only a few more jumps to secret base and tunnel system under Denver airport to hallow flat earth and lizard people.
  - csomar 3y ago
    Conspiracy theories do not emerge from nothingness but the lack of transparency, double-standards and lack of a clear moral framework is what gives them a breeding ground. Realpolitik is like corporate America today. It optimizes return for the next couple quarters disregarding the long-term damage.
    - nitwit005 3y ago
      Have every meeting in public, publish every document, and they'll still insist you're part of a Communist conspiracy to poison the tap water. Or for a more modern one, examine the diverse accusations around 5G. Some of it's just general paranoia and distrust, or outright mental illness.
      - rightbyte 3y ago
        Mentally ill conspiracy theorist are just mentally ill. Why even bring those up. They are used to smear people pointing out actual conspiracies in such a way that even using the word "conspiracy" will make people think you are a lunatic.
        nitwit005 3y ago
        We're discussing the reasons for conspiracy theories "emerging". Any honest list will include mental illness.
        rightbyte 3y ago
        Fair enough.
  - cempaka 3y ago
    The point is not that any given random conspiracy theory is correct. It's that these specific objections to conspiratorial analysis are spurious and disproven.
  - oatmeal1 3y ago
    "Conspiracy theorists" isn't one group of people. "Conspiracy theory" is just a label applied when anyone believes something outside the Overton Window.
    - downWidOutaFite 3y ago
      I don't think it's related to the Overton Window. Usually it's just a web of insinuations based on vibes.
- nitwit005 3y ago
  I'm not even sure if this qualifies as a secret. People were openly discussing the UK and US involvement at the time.
  - cempaka 3y ago
    Yes, and this is one of the main problems with the "someone would have talked" objection. There are often witnesses or leakers, including to events like the JFK assassination, but as long as they can be kept out of the public consciousness or adequately smeared as cranks, it's as if the secret was kept regardless.
    - redeeman 3y ago
      its funny how governments ALWAYS lies about wars they have been involved with, and people by and large considers this to be true. but currently when there are wars, we are to trust them 100%
    - nitwit005 3y ago
      The New York Times published an article reporting Soviet charges that the United States was behind the coup. It was just genuinely not a secret.
      - t-3 3y ago
        The same or similar can be said about pretty much any "conspiracy theory", from totally insane ancient alien stuff to mundane corruption and foul play.
    - orwin 3y ago
      I'm sorry, but this coup is the only "conspiracy theory" where i got second-hand versions of actual witnesses (actually, participants). There were journalists that wrote on that in France in the 60s (proamerican anticommunist, hardline right wing, so when he wrote "the US did it because Mossadegh was a commie", i mean, everybody should believe it). We had actual political party that wrote that the US did it in their manifesto in the 70s, and taught that to their members in their "modern history" lessons (my father tended to those instead of going to catechism/sunday school). You had public figures in Iran who said "The US paid us". It was quite clear the US did it until in the 00s a top US official said "yeah, we did it, it was cheap". JFK assassination is weird, because only 3 people needed to be involved, so it might be hard to find actual participants, but most conspiracy theories needs a lot more (anywhere from dozens to thousands), and those, i wouldn't trust no one serious talked. When Seymour Hersh managed to find proofs on CIA most secret operation (MKUltra, which is way worse imho than lying about getting on the moon or whatever), its hard to keep that objection.
- smegger001 3y ago
  Except people didnt keep quiet and weren't that compatent that why it shows up in high school us history books and gave us the shit shows in the middle east and Latin America today. So both side were right and wrong it was a conspiracy of blabering incompatents.
downWidOutaFite 3y ago
> It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. Israel doesn't care if their neighbors are islamic dictatorships, military dictatorships, or democracies, they work hard to keep them all as weak as possible.
ChuckMcM 3y ago
I agree with this. There is a lot to be said for leadership through honesty. In some ways I feel like we've entered something like a "Foundation Crisis" (if you have read Asimov's Foundation series) in that a long series of events has lead to a crisis in the world order where the "good guys often seem just as bad as the bad guys.
gustavus 3y ago
> It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration. > But there was a time that the CIA was responsible for an awful lot of heinous things, and the ousting of Mossadegh is just one. There was a time? Because of course they promised 100% that they would totally not do something like that again ever ever, and so of course they aren't doing anything like that anymore.....
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
  Don’t forget the breakup of the Ottoman Empire around the same time.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration I’m pretty sure it goes back much, much, further than that.
  - saulpw 3y ago
    Nope, it doesn't really. I did some research[0] to get to the bottom of it, and it goes back to the Zionism of the late 19th century. Before that, the Jewish population in the Palestine region was a 5% minority (and Christians a 10% minority) and the rest were Arab Muslims, and they mostly got along. Anti-semitism has been awful throughout history, of course, particularly in Eastern Europe, which is a big part of what fueled the Zionists to resettle in Palestine, but locally the tensions started then, and increased significantly when Britain stepped in after WWI, and then when the UN created Israel in 1948, and so on. [0] https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029f3 https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029... Edit: why the downvotes with no explanation? I thought the same thing as the parent, and did some research, to discover the real history, that the Israel-Palestine tensions actually only go back to the late 1800s. I did some independent verification, but would appreciate being corrected if this is wrong.
kldavis4 3y ago
If you really want to know how evil and down right fucked up the CIA was, I highly recommend The Devil's Chessboard, a biography of Allen Dulles https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24723229 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24723229 After finishing it, my sense was that the best thing for America and the world would have been to put an end to the CIA.
- smegger001 3y ago
  Yeah the were an agency with basicly no oversite and unlimited budget for much of their existence. Now they supposedly have to answer to Congress at least. Personally I think we ought to start over with clean slate agency with better oversight and legistive limits on their action beyond which they require Congress aproval on a case by case basis, and none of the current decision makers be allowed in. Do the same with the NSA. Also enable the FBI to have constant oversight on them and report if they are hiding anything from Congress from or exceeding their remit
everybodyknows 3y ago
> CIA was responsible for ... In the case of "rogue operations", the CIA is responsible. In the more usual case the Administration signs off on the go-ahead, and POTUS is ultimately responsible. Examples: Kennedy's Bay of Pigs, Bush 43 torture flights ...
_8j50 3y ago
The CIA gets unfrair treatment, partly I think because they are held to the same standards by the public as say the FBI. This is what intel agencies do though. They are not there for democracy, political agenda, law enforcement,etc... they are like the military, as you pointed out they do heinous things. But the part that irks me the most is your incorrect insinuation that they did what they did on their own. They acted on behalf of the american people and their elected leaders. Much like how the US military also did heinous things in times of war (as any military would). The CIA is partly a paramilitary organization, sanctioned by the american people. Like any such agency they harm civilians and interfere in foreign governments' politics and economy. Why does the US need to repair our reputation? Unless by repair you mean remind the world who to be afraid of. We do not live in a nice world where everyone gets along. The US government and military (and the CIA) have no obligation to the world, their obligations are entirely to protect the american people and economy. Look at the unresr and strife in american society today. This is with a good economy! Look at the mass global migration to the US, civil rights changes,etc... they all happened because of post world war 2 prosperity, if you think all these rights and niceties can be kept under a crashed economy I'd have to respectfully disagree. In any other century in history, a country like the US would be inavding and decimating continents by now. When the CIA intervenes, it is because their leaders were hostile towards the US. My challenge to you is if you are willing to face the chaos of a poor/powerless america and hope the alternative power-vaccum fillers would be nicer. China for example literally has police stations in western countries to crush dissent and I shouldn't need to say much abour Russia's election interference (and China!), if they were in the US's place, how would you think they would react to a hostile Iran in 1953? Even now, Russian mercenaries are toppling African governments left and right! My point is not to morally justify anything but to plead for perspective here.
- rockemsockem 3y ago
  I generally agree with everything you said, but it seems to me that the biggest criticism of the coup in Iran is that it did not ultimately wind up serving American interests effectively. The coup installed a US-favorable Shah for a few years where oil could be obtained cheaply and then we got decades of a theocratic government actively funding American enemies all over the world. Oh, and we did this to a country that we had given nuclear power to. Evaluating the CIA's move on the rubric you've set out does not produce a passing grade!!
vinceguidry 3y ago
> Then they've got a long way to go. I'd love to see a realistic treatment on where the line of 'possible' lies for an intelligence org. They're already one of the most open intelligence orgs in history.
- akira2501 3y ago
  They're not strictly an intelligence organization. They have a large operational detachment. Which is what _allowed_ them to interfere in the operations of foreign governments in the first place. If they were in fact, _just_ intelligence, there might be a point here. As it is, they're a rogue agency that needs to be completely disbanded. Never in my life have I felt that I owe any part of my safety as an American to these thugs.
avgcorrection 3y ago
> I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. But there was a time that the CIA was responsible for an awful lot of heinous things, and the ousting of Mossadegh is just one. > Maybe, just maybe, they can issue a long string of mea culpas and the US can begin to repair its absolutely horrific reputation in the Middle East, Latin America, and elsewhere. But it took seven decades to come clean about this one, and it's going to take many more decades to undo the damage it did. My goodness, the actual things that the US has done abroad has damaged its reputation in the most affected places around the world. EDIT: I can't help myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37767826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37767826
empath-nirvana 3y ago
> CIA’s leadership is committed to being as open with the public as possible I think it would be a very bad intelligence service if this was true.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  That's where the "as possible" qualifier comes in.
  - riversflow 3y ago
    I literally started laughing when I read that. Suuuure, I'll believe Spooks who lie for a living when they say they are going to as open as possible.
api 3y ago
There was basically an era in US foreign policy where "communism bad" was the single guiding principle. If someone wasn't communist, they got our support. It didn't matter if they were bloodthirsty monsters or if they were even more anti-American than the communists. If someone seemed to even be tilting red, they get undermined and sometimes even overthrown either directly or through us backing one of the previously mentioned anti-communist forces. There really was no other principle at work beyond "communism bad, USSR bad," and we made a lot of devils' bargains in that era on the theory that the enemy of our enemy is our friend. It's a great example of monomania and paranoia guiding bad policy. The only thing I can say in defense of people from that era is that everyone thought WWIII was around the corner and we were going to all get nuked anyway. It was a really paranoid time.
- almatabata 3y ago
  Of course the communism part worried them but they already started thinking about it after losing control over the iranian oil.
  - api 3y ago
    Control of oil was a huge thing but that in the end boiled down to geopolitical positioning vs. the USSR. Oil equals economic might, and control of oil also means the power to turn the oil spigot off and harm the economy. The Cold War really dominated all foreign policy thinking in that era. Everyone else was seen as a chess piece up for grabs by either the US or the USSR. I'm really not defending it. I think a lot of terrible decisions were made during that time. But it is useful to understand why.
Zambyte 3y ago
> I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. It's funny you say that...[0] [0] https://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-memo-1967-cia-coined-weaponized-label-conspiracy-theory/5822801 https://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-memo-1967-cia-coined-weapo...
faeriechangling 3y ago
“As possible” are two words doing some serious heavy lifting.
tootie 3y ago
I think just saying the "CIA did it" is also not entirely fair. They carried out the activities, but Eisenhower gave the greenlight after being cajoled by Britain. It wasn't a rogue operation, it was explicit policy of two governments.
soderfoo 3y ago
A great book on this topic is The Devil's Chessboard, which focuses on the nascent CIA and Allen Dulles.
znpy 3y ago
> The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. I guess people in 1953 said the same. Know knows what will be admitted/acknowledged in 70 years?

cempaka 3y ago

> I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. Probably because the people who theorized that there had been a conspiracy turned out to be correct, and the usual bromide objections ("someone would have talked," "more than 50 people can never keep a secret," "the government just isn't that competent," etc) were shown to be entirely false.

downWidOutaFite 3y ago
Conspiracy theorists can be wrong about 100 things before they're right about one thing. They're useless for understanding the current state of the world.
- AwaAwa 3y ago
  Until that percentage starts to improve dramatically like in the last 5 years.
- gustavus 3y ago
  Exactly after all the conspiracy theorists were only right about - Iraq WMDs - MkUltra - The Crack Epidemic - Watergate - Glados - Paperclip - Robert Kennedy car crash - Epstien But they just got lucky a bunch.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    Now name the thousands that they aren't right about. Your comment is literally survivorship bias in action.
  - gruez 3y ago
    1. You listed 8 conspiracies. How many false conspiracies (or ones that failed to pan out) are there? If there are 800 of them, then OP isn't exactly wrong. 2. For the ones you listed, were there specific and credible "conspiracy theories" that existed prior to them being discovered/confirmed? Or were there only vague theories of "government doing something shady"?
    - plorg 3y ago
      Then also, which specific conspiracy theories were actually confirmed? Part of the problem is that the kernel of truth in the theory is scaffolded out to "justify" the much broader, wilder claims.
    - t-3 3y ago
      > You listed 8 conspiracies. How many false conspiracies (or ones that failed to pan out) are there? If there are 800 of them, then OP isn't exactly wrong. The set of possible conspiracy theories is infinite. The set believed by any one 'conspiracy theorist' is likely to be far smaller. Lumping in hollow earth, lizardpeople, flatearther, aliens etc with 'government lies about wars' is always a cynical move to avoid legitimate criticism and spread propaganda.
      - smegger001 3y ago
        Exsept the believable ones act as gateways to the hard stuff. Its a small mental jump from epsteins pedo island to the DMC being run by satanic communist pedophilias frequenting a pizza shop child brothel. It only a few more jumps to secret base and tunnel system under Denver airport to hallow flat earth and lizard people.
- csomar 3y ago
  Conspiracy theories do not emerge from nothingness but the lack of transparency, double-standards and lack of a clear moral framework is what gives them a breeding ground. Realpolitik is like corporate America today. It optimizes return for the next couple quarters disregarding the long-term damage.
  - nitwit005 3y ago
    Have every meeting in public, publish every document, and they'll still insist you're part of a Communist conspiracy to poison the tap water. Or for a more modern one, examine the diverse accusations around 5G. Some of it's just general paranoia and distrust, or outright mental illness.
    - rightbyte 3y ago
      Mentally ill conspiracy theorist are just mentally ill. Why even bring those up. They are used to smear people pointing out actual conspiracies in such a way that even using the word "conspiracy" will make people think you are a lunatic.
      - nitwit005 3y ago
        We're discussing the reasons for conspiracy theories "emerging". Any honest list will include mental illness.
        rightbyte 3y ago
        Fair enough.
- cempaka 3y ago
  The point is not that any given random conspiracy theory is correct. It's that these specific objections to conspiratorial analysis are spurious and disproven.
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  "Conspiracy theorists" isn't one group of people. "Conspiracy theory" is just a label applied when anyone believes something outside the Overton Window.
  - downWidOutaFite 3y ago
    I don't think it's related to the Overton Window. Usually it's just a web of insinuations based on vibes.
nitwit005 3y ago
I'm not even sure if this qualifies as a secret. People were openly discussing the UK and US involvement at the time.
- cempaka 3y ago
  Yes, and this is one of the main problems with the "someone would have talked" objection. There are often witnesses or leakers, including to events like the JFK assassination, but as long as they can be kept out of the public consciousness or adequately smeared as cranks, it's as if the secret was kept regardless.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    its funny how governments ALWAYS lies about wars they have been involved with, and people by and large considers this to be true. but currently when there are wars, we are to trust them 100%
  - nitwit005 3y ago
    The New York Times published an article reporting Soviet charges that the United States was behind the coup. It was just genuinely not a secret.
    - t-3 3y ago
      The same or similar can be said about pretty much any "conspiracy theory", from totally insane ancient alien stuff to mundane corruption and foul play.
  - orwin 3y ago
    I'm sorry, but this coup is the only "conspiracy theory" where i got second-hand versions of actual witnesses (actually, participants). There were journalists that wrote on that in France in the 60s (proamerican anticommunist, hardline right wing, so when he wrote "the US did it because Mossadegh was a commie", i mean, everybody should believe it). We had actual political party that wrote that the US did it in their manifesto in the 70s, and taught that to their members in their "modern history" lessons (my father tended to those instead of going to catechism/sunday school). You had public figures in Iran who said "The US paid us". It was quite clear the US did it until in the 00s a top US official said "yeah, we did it, it was cheap". JFK assassination is weird, because only 3 people needed to be involved, so it might be hard to find actual participants, but most conspiracy theories needs a lot more (anywhere from dozens to thousands), and those, i wouldn't trust no one serious talked. When Seymour Hersh managed to find proofs on CIA most secret operation (MKUltra, which is way worse imho than lying about getting on the moon or whatever), its hard to keep that objection.
smegger001 3y ago
Except people didnt keep quiet and weren't that compatent that why it shows up in high school us history books and gave us the shit shows in the middle east and Latin America today. So both side were right and wrong it was a conspiracy of blabering incompatents.

downWidOutaFite 3y ago

> It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. Israel doesn't care if their neighbors are islamic dictatorships, military dictatorships, or democracies, they work hard to keep them all as weak as possible.

ChuckMcM 3y ago

I agree with this. There is a lot to be said for leadership through honesty. In some ways I feel like we've entered something like a "Foundation Crisis" (if you have read Asimov's Foundation series) in that a long series of events has lead to a crisis in the world order where the "good guys often seem just as bad as the bad guys.

gustavus 3y ago

> It's not unreasonable to trace the Sunday's horrors in Israel to that event in 1953. It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration. > But there was a time that the CIA was responsible for an awful lot of heinous things, and the ousting of Mossadegh is just one. There was a time? Because of course they promised 100% that they would totally not do something like that again ever ever, and so of course they aren't doing anything like that anymore.....

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
Don’t forget the breakup of the Ottoman Empire around the same time.
rayiner 3y ago
> It actually goes back much farther than that to WW1 and the dissolution of the Russian Empire and the fighting that happened amongst the middle eastern states, the new Bolshevik government, and the Triple Entente, and of course the Balfour Decleration I’m pretty sure it goes back much, much, further than that.
- saulpw 3y ago
  Nope, it doesn't really. I did some research[0] to get to the bottom of it, and it goes back to the Zionism of the late 19th century. Before that, the Jewish population in the Palestine region was a 5% minority (and Christians a 10% minority) and the rest were Arab Muslims, and they mostly got along. Anti-semitism has been awful throughout history, of course, particularly in Eastern Europe, which is a big part of what fueled the Zionists to resettle in Palestine, but locally the tensions started then, and increased significantly when Britain stepped in after WWI, and then when the UN created Israel in 1948, and so on. [0] https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029f3 https://chat.openai.com/c/83abf663-6011-4ed0-9a8b-f183d2e029... Edit: why the downvotes with no explanation? I thought the same thing as the parent, and did some research, to discover the real history, that the Israel-Palestine tensions actually only go back to the late 1800s. I did some independent verification, but would appreciate being corrected if this is wrong.

kldavis4 3y ago

If you really want to know how evil and down right fucked up the CIA was, I highly recommend The Devil's Chessboard, a biography of Allen Dulles https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24723229 https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/24723229 After finishing it, my sense was that the best thing for America and the world would have been to put an end to the CIA.

smegger001 3y ago
Yeah the were an agency with basicly no oversite and unlimited budget for much of their existence. Now they supposedly have to answer to Congress at least. Personally I think we ought to start over with clean slate agency with better oversight and legistive limits on their action beyond which they require Congress aproval on a case by case basis, and none of the current decision makers be allowed in. Do the same with the NSA. Also enable the FBI to have constant oversight on them and report if they are hiding anything from Congress from or exceeding their remit

everybodyknows 3y ago

> CIA was responsible for ... In the case of "rogue operations", the CIA is responsible. In the more usual case the Administration signs off on the go-ahead, and POTUS is ultimately responsible. Examples: Kennedy's Bay of Pigs, Bush 43 torture flights ...

_8j50 3y ago

The CIA gets unfrair treatment, partly I think because they are held to the same standards by the public as say the FBI. This is what intel agencies do though. They are not there for democracy, political agenda, law enforcement,etc... they are like the military, as you pointed out they do heinous things. But the part that irks me the most is your incorrect insinuation that they did what they did on their own. They acted on behalf of the american people and their elected leaders. Much like how the US military also did heinous things in times of war (as any military would). The CIA is partly a paramilitary organization, sanctioned by the american people. Like any such agency they harm civilians and interfere in foreign governments' politics and economy. Why does the US need to repair our reputation? Unless by repair you mean remind the world who to be afraid of. We do not live in a nice world where everyone gets along. The US government and military (and the CIA) have no obligation to the world, their obligations are entirely to protect the american people and economy. Look at the unresr and strife in american society today. This is with a good economy! Look at the mass global migration to the US, civil rights changes,etc... they all happened because of post world war 2 prosperity, if you think all these rights and niceties can be kept under a crashed economy I'd have to respectfully disagree. In any other century in history, a country like the US would be inavding and decimating continents by now. When the CIA intervenes, it is because their leaders were hostile towards the US. My challenge to you is if you are willing to face the chaos of a poor/powerless america and hope the alternative power-vaccum fillers would be nicer. China for example literally has police stations in western countries to crush dissent and I shouldn't need to say much abour Russia's election interference (and China!), if they were in the US's place, how would you think they would react to a hostile Iran in 1953? Even now, Russian mercenaries are toppling African governments left and right! My point is not to morally justify anything but to plead for perspective here.

rockemsockem 3y ago
I generally agree with everything you said, but it seems to me that the biggest criticism of the coup in Iran is that it did not ultimately wind up serving American interests effectively. The coup installed a US-favorable Shah for a few years where oil could be obtained cheaply and then we got decades of a theocratic government actively funding American enemies all over the world. Oh, and we did this to a country that we had given nuclear power to. Evaluating the CIA's move on the rubric you've set out does not produce a passing grade!!

vinceguidry 3y ago

> Then they've got a long way to go. I'd love to see a realistic treatment on where the line of 'possible' lies for an intelligence org. They're already one of the most open intelligence orgs in history.

akira2501 3y ago
They're not strictly an intelligence organization. They have a large operational detachment. Which is what _allowed_ them to interfere in the operations of foreign governments in the first place. If they were in fact, _just_ intelligence, there might be a point here. As it is, they're a rogue agency that needs to be completely disbanded. Never in my life have I felt that I owe any part of my safety as an American to these thugs.

avgcorrection 3y ago

> I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. But there was a time that the CIA was responsible for an awful lot of heinous things, and the ousting of Mossadegh is just one. > Maybe, just maybe, they can issue a long string of mea culpas and the US can begin to repair its absolutely horrific reputation in the Middle East, Latin America, and elsewhere. But it took seven decades to come clean about this one, and it's going to take many more decades to undo the damage it did. My goodness, the actual things that the US has done abroad has damaged its reputation in the most affected places around the world. EDIT: I can't help myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37767826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37767826

empath-nirvana 3y ago

> CIA’s leadership is committed to being as open with the public as possible I think it would be a very bad intelligence service if this was true.

ceejayoz 3y ago
That's where the "as possible" qualifier comes in.
- riversflow 3y ago
  I literally started laughing when I read that. Suuuure, I'll believe Spooks who lie for a living when they say they are going to as open as possible.

api 3y ago

There was basically an era in US foreign policy where "communism bad" was the single guiding principle. If someone wasn't communist, they got our support. It didn't matter if they were bloodthirsty monsters or if they were even more anti-American than the communists. If someone seemed to even be tilting red, they get undermined and sometimes even overthrown either directly or through us backing one of the previously mentioned anti-communist forces. There really was no other principle at work beyond "communism bad, USSR bad," and we made a lot of devils' bargains in that era on the theory that the enemy of our enemy is our friend. It's a great example of monomania and paranoia guiding bad policy. The only thing I can say in defense of people from that era is that everyone thought WWIII was around the corner and we were going to all get nuked anyway. It was a really paranoid time.

almatabata 3y ago
Of course the communism part worried them but they already started thinking about it after losing control over the iranian oil.
- api 3y ago
  Control of oil was a huge thing but that in the end boiled down to geopolitical positioning vs. the USSR. Oil equals economic might, and control of oil also means the power to turn the oil spigot off and harm the economy. The Cold War really dominated all foreign policy thinking in that era. Everyone else was seen as a chess piece up for grabs by either the US or the USSR. I'm really not defending it. I think a lot of terrible decisions were made during that time. But it is useful to understand why.

Zambyte 3y ago

> I really hate the way events like that justified so much conspiracy-theory thinking. The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. It's funny you say that...[0] [0] https://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-memo-1967-cia-coined-weaponized-label-conspiracy-theory/5822801 https://www.globalresearch.ca/cia-memo-1967-cia-coined-weapo...

faeriechangling 3y ago

“As possible” are two words doing some serious heavy lifting.

tootie 3y ago

I think just saying the "CIA did it" is also not entirely fair. They carried out the activities, but Eisenhower gave the greenlight after being cajoled by Britain. It wasn't a rogue operation, it was explicit policy of two governments.

soderfoo 3y ago

A great book on this topic is The Devil's Chessboard, which focuses on the nascent CIA and Allen Dulles.

znpy 3y ago

> The CIA gets blamed for anything and everything, much of false and outright deranged. I guess people in 1953 said the same. Know knows what will be admitted/acknowledged in 70 years?