3 ms·

I don’t think this is UX/UI designers not knowing/caring about accessibility. It’s their bosses saying the tiny scrollbar is preferred because it sells 20% more

by Aeolun 3y ago

I don’t think this is UX/UI designers not knowing/caring about accessibility. It’s their bosses saying the tiny scrollbar is preferred because it sells 20% more due to the aesthetics being better. Who cares about the 0.5% of disabled people that weren’t likely to buy your app anyway. Same for browsers, FF may care about accessibility, but they won’t lose the browser wars (bit of a moot point by now, but eh) because most people like Chrome’s tiny scrollbars.

pmontra 3y ago
Do Gnome and GTK sell any better because they use tiny scrollbars? Or Macs, or Windows? Apps do what the OS let them do.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  I mean, take an average person, show them the UI of a current mac, then the UI of windows 95, and ask them which they prefer? It’s not the only factor, but it is a factor.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    It would be more sensible to show them a current Windows. Or Windows 7. Or a Mac with visible scroll bars. Or ask them if they would like Windows 11 more with the scroll bar size setting removed.
  - pmontra 3y ago
    To prevent a familiarity bias we should ask them the same question in 1995 with time machined screenshots of current MacOS downsampled to 640x480px.
    - hulitu 3y ago
      A border of 1 pixel on a UHD display scalled for a display of 640x480 is 0 pixels. You can make the same exercise, trying to run for ex Windows in a virtual machine with a 640x480 screen.
      - pmontra 3y ago
        Exactly, a current UI would be far from optimal on 30 years old hardware. Furthermore it would look alien, not in a good way, even if Windows 10 would probably feel old fashioned to us in 1995, because of the flat look that was forced when hardware was more limited in the 80s. It's almost a Windows 2 with a few more colors and less borders. Check this site for screenshots https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win203 https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win203
    - theyAreThem11 3y ago
      [flagged]
rcxdude 3y ago
Perhaps, but I think a large part of this is designers assuming the scrollbar isn't actually for scrolling anymore, and treating is as simply a position indicator. Which for users who exlusively use a trackpad/touchscreen/scrollwheel for scrolling, it is. Ignorance tends to be the largest cause of accessibility issues.
- g-b-r 3y ago
  It would be extremely useful for touchscreen users as well, a scrollbar lets you scroll a whole document (and go near specific points) in an instant instead of swiping like an idiot for a minute. And for trackpad and scrollwheel users it's the same, I absolutely adore chiral scrolling but you still need to use the scrollbars sometimes (or often). All these things only replace the arrows of scrollbars (enhancing them with some speed control), but the arrows are just a tiny and stupid aspect of scrollbars (I don't remember ever seeing someone using them).
ryandrake 3y ago
> It’s their bosses saying the tiny scrollbar is preferred because it sells 20% more due to the aesthetics being better. I think we need to stop shifting blame to "the bosses." The bosses are (generally) not getting involved with the minutia of how scroll bars work or what color they are, or how accessible they are. This problem falls squarely in the lap of 1. the UX designers who think scrollbars are icky and get in the way of their pure vision of the app and 2. the developers who don't push back on the madness. Yes, I've had "bosses" who annoyingly micromanaged the UX of our product, and yes, it's irritating when that happens. But I highly doubt it's the general case. Designers have run amok in the never-ending quest to fill out their portfolios, and accessible things like thick scrollbars, large fonts, contrasting bold colors, and an information architecture that lends itself to screen readers get in the way of their sterile, minimalist aesthetic.
- theyAreThem11 3y ago
  [flagged]
JohnFen 3y ago
> Who cares about the 0.5% of disabled people But it's not just disabled people. I'm not disabled, but curse the scrollbar and window frame situation every day. Their minimization makes actually using the UI a greater pain in the ass.

by Aeolun 3y ago

pmontra 3y ago

Do Gnome and GTK sell any better because they use tiny scrollbars? Or Macs, or Windows? Apps do what the OS let them do.

Aeolun 3y ago
I mean, take an average person, show them the UI of a current mac, then the UI of windows 95, and ask them which they prefer? It’s not the only factor, but it is a factor.
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  It would be more sensible to show them a current Windows. Or Windows 7. Or a Mac with visible scroll bars. Or ask them if they would like Windows 11 more with the scroll bar size setting removed.
- pmontra 3y ago
  To prevent a familiarity bias we should ask them the same question in 1995 with time machined screenshots of current MacOS downsampled to 640x480px.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    A border of 1 pixel on a UHD display scalled for a display of 640x480 is 0 pixels. You can make the same exercise, trying to run for ex Windows in a virtual machine with a 640x480 screen.
    - pmontra 3y ago
      Exactly, a current UI would be far from optimal on 30 years old hardware. Furthermore it would look alien, not in a good way, even if Windows 10 would probably feel old fashioned to us in 1995, because of the flat look that was forced when hardware was more limited in the 80s. It's almost a Windows 2 with a few more colors and less borders. Check this site for screenshots https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win203 https://guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win203
  - theyAreThem11 3y ago
    [flagged]

rcxdude 3y ago

Perhaps, but I think a large part of this is designers assuming the scrollbar isn't actually for scrolling anymore, and treating is as simply a position indicator. Which for users who exlusively use a trackpad/touchscreen/scrollwheel for scrolling, it is. Ignorance tends to be the largest cause of accessibility issues.

g-b-r 3y ago
It would be extremely useful for touchscreen users as well, a scrollbar lets you scroll a whole document (and go near specific points) in an instant instead of swiping like an idiot for a minute. And for trackpad and scrollwheel users it's the same, I absolutely adore chiral scrolling but you still need to use the scrollbars sometimes (or often). All these things only replace the arrows of scrollbars (enhancing them with some speed control), but the arrows are just a tiny and stupid aspect of scrollbars (I don't remember ever seeing someone using them).

ryandrake 3y ago

> It’s their bosses saying the tiny scrollbar is preferred because it sells 20% more due to the aesthetics being better. I think we need to stop shifting blame to "the bosses." The bosses are (generally) not getting involved with the minutia of how scroll bars work or what color they are, or how accessible they are. This problem falls squarely in the lap of 1. the UX designers who think scrollbars are icky and get in the way of their pure vision of the app and 2. the developers who don't push back on the madness. Yes, I've had "bosses" who annoyingly micromanaged the UX of our product, and yes, it's irritating when that happens. But I highly doubt it's the general case. Designers have run amok in the never-ending quest to fill out their portfolios, and accessible things like thick scrollbars, large fonts, contrasting bold colors, and an information architecture that lends itself to screen readers get in the way of their sterile, minimalist aesthetic.

theyAreThem11 3y ago
[flagged]

JohnFen 3y ago

> Who cares about the 0.5% of disabled people But it's not just disabled people. I'm not disabled, but curse the scrollbar and window frame situation every day. Their minimization makes actually using the UI a greater pain in the ass.