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France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
- the_bookmaker 3y agoFrance essentially has inquisition courts, which for example Houellebecq [1] (a prominent author) and Zemmour [2] (a former presidential candidate) had to suffer through. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Houellebecq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Houellebecq [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Zemmourcandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Zemmourcandi
- jruohonen 3y agoI've commented about this overall situation in France a few times, and yes, they've gone after fundamental rights also before. Which is kind of weird given their history. EDIT: Over again, some Americans seem to think that this is about the "freedom of speech", whereas, in reality, it is about the freedom of assembly. That said, the situation seems pretty dire, with organizations classified as terrorists on the streets.
- imp0cat 3y agoI think this is mostly about searching for the solutions that would prevent people from abusing the fundamental rights to advance their anti-democracy agenda.
- jruohonen 3y agoWell said.
- debacle 3y agoThat's not how fundamental rights are meant to work. I'm not a monarchist, but I'm happy to allow monarchists (or communists, or Sharia folk, or Baptists) to push for that form of government. Democracy is a durable form of government unless it's systemically broken.
- medvezhenok 3y agoI am happy to allow for any state transition that allows for a peaceful reversal of the event (i.e. an undo button). If it's a monarchy, it should be a monarchy with guardrails (i.e. could be deposed by a snap popular vote with 2/3 majority or something) If the plan of the people, once in power, is to prevent any challenges to their power, we should not run such experiments, and those people do not deserve free speech rights. Free speech has that paradox unfortunately built into it (see Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance). Universal free speech is a pipe dream you wouldn't enjoy living under.
- OfSanguineFire 3y agoThe 18th-century revolutions that were centered around fundamental rights of man, were pretty hostile to monarchy. France famously guillotined supporters of the monarchy. Even the USA tarred and feathered loyalists or drove them into exile in Canada or the Caribbean. It was only years later, once monarchy wasn’t a realistic possibility any more (or, in France, the public mood had come around to monarchy again) that such advocacy was permitted again. And then later movements for instituting a non-democratic regime, namely fascism or communism, got various degrees of prohibition. So, I’d say it’s pretty normal even for successful democracies to interpret fundamental rights in that light.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoPeaceful assembly is speech
- hef19898 3y agoIt is a seperate basic right so. And as such has to be balanced againstvall the others, inclusing free speech.
- andrepd 3y agoDon't even attempt to muddy the waters like this. Zemmour has been sued many times, yes, but only convicted twice. The first time, for example, for saying "businesses should discriminate against blacks and Arabs". He was convicted for incitement to discrimination, an offense in many countries. In fact: he was sued for several things he said, like "traffickers are all black and muslim" which he was acquitted for, as while reproachable falls within freedom of expression. Again: only convicted for things which directly contravene specific laws, such as non-discrimination in hiring. In sum, nothing to do with tfa.
- hef19898 3y agoZemmour so is one of the few European polititians that are so right wing, they would put people like the space laser lady to shame...
- hd4 3y agoNot that it appears to have done much good https://x.com/NationalIndNews/status/1712525993854833142?s=20 https://x.com/NationalIndNews/status/1712525993854833142?s=2...
- TazeTSchnitzel 3y agoDoesn't France have constitutionally protected freedom of speech?
- Xylakant 3y agoNo constituional protection is absolute, as they usually contradict each other to at least some extend. The difference where different societies place the focus - the US is strongly in favor of freedom of speech, whereas European states usually are less absolutist about speech.
- BasedAnon 3y agoGodel's constitutional theorem
- hollasch 3y agoOne significant difference is the US constitutional assertion that "certain inalienable rights" (notably the freedom to speak) are "endowed by our creator". In practice, this places such rights outside the authority of governments. In most other countries, rights are constructed and granted at the pleasure of the government currently in power. It's easy to overlook this philosophical difference as pedantic, but the ramifications are profound.
- calyth2018 3y agoHow many are brave enough to challenge it in the face of arrest or worse police violence?
- lostmsu 3y agoJudging by this (linked up in the thread) - plenty: https://x.com/NationalIndNews/status/1712525993854833142?s=20 https://x.com/NationalIndNews/status/1712525993854833142?s=2...
- lamp987 3y ago[flagged]
- johnyzee 3y agoCensorship is rearing its ugly head again. Can't have the wrong opinions. I feel like this really took off with the Corona virus pandemic, again with the Ukraine invasion, and now this.
- Clubber 3y agoYes, all the people who couldn't imagine the censorship being used against "their team," here it is. It always happens. Censorship is the tool of authoritarians. Fight it in every form.
- 2356234562537 3y agoWell. My team doesn't hold rallys where people yell to gas the jews after a major terrorist attack. So... It's not that I can't imagine it being used against me it's just that I don't do that anyway so not being allowed to do it isn't a loss.
- kweingar 3y agoThere is violent rhetoric at all rallies related to this war, pro-Israel rallies included. Most people do not say such terrible things, some people do say them, and the opposition paints the whole rally as endorsing that stance. That’s the way it goes.
- Clubber 3y agoOnce a population is ok with censorship, they enable censorship, so eventually it will be a loss. That's what's happening right now.
- jabradoodle 3y agoThat is not what they banned, I strongly suspect that is already illegal. Also, your "my team" take is bordering on, if not racist. There is no "other team", they are diverse individuals who have opinions that differ from yours.
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- Solver_E3 3y ago[flagged]
- aqme28 3y agoThere's also some sort of ban in place in my home country of Germany. I think there's technically no ban, but people keep getting arrested for protesting regardless.
- sottol 3y agoGermany has very strict laws against hate-speech and incitement of hatred ("Volkzverhetzung"), that would probably be the reason for people being arrested. For historic reasons.
- kiviuq 3y agoGermany has a great deal to answer for the fate of modern day Palestinians. The most decisive factor next to Sykes Picot. They naturally have no interest in that debate.
- SettembreNero 3y agoSo in the end the real cancel culture finally came? _Mais vous m'étonnez..._
- seryoiupfurds 3y agoWhy are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence. Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted. Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that every Israeli man, woman and child is a valid military target. https://twitter.com/Cooper4SAE/status/1711214442875093236 https://twitter.com/Cooper4SAE/status/1711214442875093236 And of course people legitimately holding a vigil for peace and supporting the human rights of Palestinian civilians are not guilty of hate, so long as they don't justify or downplay the crimes of Hamas. But many of the rallies were absolutely something else that has no place in a free or decent society. I've seen plenty of Palestinians interviewed on TV who said "I'm disgusted by the attacks of Hamas. All I want is peace for our people." Everyone can support a statement like that, and if the organizers of these rallies cared they could have thrown out anyone who didn't.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- eli_gottlieb 3y ago> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration. Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right before or after Charlottesville?
- inglor_cz 3y ago"I want these people to go mask-off." This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know. As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them. Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.
- TacticalCoder 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Simulacra 3y agoI think it is absolutely grotesque and distasteful to hold pro rallies for Palestine and Hamas right now, but I would not stop them. They should be free to protest and speak.
- voisin 3y agoIs anyone holding pro-Hamas rallies? I have only heard of Pro-Palestinian. The two are obviously not the same.
- nickthegreek 3y agohttps://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/ https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palesti... When the pro Palestinian rally is chanting gas the Jews, it might be pro hamas as well.
- pixxel 3y agoProtests are infiltrated all the time, so don’t be so cocksure with the cries of “pro hamas”.
- nickthegreek 3y agoI am not saying that every protestor there was pro hamas. There is video. It did happen and the group wasn't 3 people. I am providing recently information to the OP to directly answer their point.
- eli_gottlieb 3y agoYes, the demonstrators in the USA who cried "glory to the martyrs!" were pro-Hamas, at least in their own words.
- g-b-r 3y agoOh yeah they all just happen to cheer for Palestine right after the Hamas carnage! What a coincidence life is strange sometimes! ¯ \ _ ( ツ ) _ / ¯
- DueDilligence 3y ago[dead]
- BasedAnon 3y ago[flagged]
- seryoiupfurds 3y agoCelebrating the slaughter of innocents is bad, actually.
- BasedAnon 3y ago[flagged]
- foogazi 3y ago200 People at a party and grandmothers in their homes
- BasedAnon 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines, not just in this thread but in many other unrelated ones. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- BasedAnon 3y ago[dead]
- voisin 3y agoSince we’re off HN topic anyways, can someone ELI5 why Israel blockades / occupies Palestinian territories? I would think given the treatment of Jews during WWII that there would be a special desire among Israelis not to treat a group of people poorly based on immutable facts like ethnicity. I understand the hatred of Hamas but don’t understand depriving Palestinian people of medicine and clean water and free movement. For what it’s worth I have made a good faith attempt to answer this for myself and quickly got bogged down in information about the Ottoman Empire, etc etc which I can’t imagine is a real justification today.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoIt's not about ethnicity or religion per se. The land israel occupies was taken by force from palestinians. Gaza specifically is to a large extent simply a refugee camp for those displaced to create the state of israel, and their descendants. Both groups have, from their own perspective, a valid and exclusive claim to the land there. If not prevented from doing so, palestinians would certainly reclaim the homes and farms of their grandparents. Israel has the political, economic, and military power to prevent this, and so they do.
- voisin 3y agoOk I understand this but why prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border? Why disallow them from trade while simultaneously not letting them into Israel?
- freedomben 3y agoNote: If you're referring to things that they've done within the last few days, disregard this comment as this comment was written regarding the way things were before the recent attacks I think it's more nuanced than just them trying to "prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border." In the region, water is scarce and important for both sides. Israel does allow "clean water" into the region, the complaint is that Israel government allows their own people take too much of it (from the perspective of Palestinian farmers). In the American west we have the exact same problem. Farmers higher upstream of the Colorado river want enough water for all their crops, but this would deprive the farmers further west from having enough. There are intense and heated (political) battles between the regions, with both regions feeling like they are getting shortchanged. With food, medicine etc, there's concern that those supplies are going to enemy combatants/terrorists (from the Israeli perspective). This is one of those situations where there aren't really any clear/easy answers.
- g-b-r 3y agoYeah it seems stupid to ban them instead of identifying (and probably arresting for support of terrorism) anyone taking part at them. But as it's often the case it's easier to sweep the problems under the rug. There was a demonstration in my city as well tonight, I'm still in shock. But it's obvious that Europe is filled with antisemitic immigrants if you don't even ask them their beliefs before allowing them to stay.
- matthewfelgate 3y agoDon't you think arresting anyone flying a Palestinian flag is a bit authoritarian.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- theironhammer 3y agoIsrael funded Hamas. https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-c...
- matthewfelgate 3y ago"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." — Voltaire