5 ms·

Agile solves a lot of these problems.

by vegetablepotpie 3y ago

danwee 3y ago
How so? If there are boring bugs to be fixed, someone will need to fix them regardless of the methodology used.
Humdeee 3y ago
Eureka! If only it was this easy...
reflectiv 3y ago
What kind of stupid statement is this...no it certainly does not. But humor me with an explanation, please...
- vegetablepotpie 3y ago
  I don’t k now why I’m being downvoted. Agile lets you manage expectations and set boundaries by scheduling a finite amount of work into a bounded amount of time.
fnimick 3y ago
Does it? At one of my former jobs management would regularly pressure engineers into doing late nights at sprint end (every other week) if we were "behind". Then if we finished things a day into the next sprint, the PM would backdate the completion to make it look like we had hit the previous sprint, since sprint completion percentage was an OKR and people's bonuses and promotions depended on it. Then since we hit the sprint, obviously our velocity had to go up for the next one, even though we were starting a day late from scrambling to "finish" the last one. There's a reason I don't work there anymore.
- robbintt 3y ago
  Name & shame
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    Pretty much everywhere, unfortunately.
- zimzam 3y ago
  The expectation that engineers work overtime to hit arbitrary metrics can’t be fixed by a process like scrum or waterfall though. Process can’t replace competent management.
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
Agile done right solves these problems. I have yet to see Agile done right, even once. And I've done XP since ~2003 and Scrum since 2006. It is now clear to me that Agile does not solve these problems: a solid leadership team solves these problems, and sometimes solid leadership teams use Agile (whether formally like Scrum, or informally, like just good communication). But Agile is the canary in the coal mine: it reveals very quickly if you have a solid leadership team or not.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Agile done right is about some completely different problems. AFAIK, it does nothing to help here. But a solid leadership does help.
- tremon 3y ago
  To me, "agile" in these discussions only apportions blame, it's orthogonal to the quality of software. When it's an agile project, either devs will choose to do the right thing, or too many developers will work on new features, whether because it gives them more visibility or because they like working on features more. And when it's not agile, either you have a product/team manager that understands the importance of not drowning in tech debt, or you have a manager that constantly prioritizes features over quality. Neither approach guarantees that the right choices will be made, just that in Agile, the developers mostly have themselves to blame.
- augustk 3y ago
  > Agile done right solves these problems It's funny that Agile is always something else. It cannot be criticized because then your are doing it wrong. It's like a theory which is not falsifiable.
- bedobi 3y ago
  no true scotsman is all agile advocates have don't get me wrong agile is an improvement in the sense that iterating on small deliverables is better than a single giant waterfall process, no disagreement there but yeah if your tool never delivers in the alleged benefits, ever, anywhere, then it's not good enough to say the problem is the people tools are welded by people if your tool doesn't take that into account and assumes and requires its users to be perfect, well, then it's not a very good tool
edrxty 3y ago
%s/solves/creates/ I don't care what the theoretical outcome is when the practical one is always this.
liveoneggs 3y ago
Now, of course, everybody is going to start moaning, "But I have all this speed. I'm agile. I'm fast. You know, this easy stuff is making my life good because I have a lot of speed." What kind of runner can run as fast as they possibly can from the very start of a race? [Audience reply: Sprinter] Right, only somebody who runs really short races, okay? [Audience laughter] But of course, we are programmers, and we are smarter than runners, apparently, because we know how to fix that problem, right? We just fire the starting pistol every hundred yards and call it a new sprint. https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hickey_Rich/SimpleMadeEasy.md https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hi...
- romanows 3y ago
  Agile isn't meant to imply speed in the sense of LoC/s, though right? The speed in Agile is about getting customer feedback sooner rather than later (so maybe a kind of latency?). I don't think sprints are mentioned in the Agile manifesto or related materials. And even within frameworks like Scrum, I don't think that "sprint" was ever intended to mean that programmers are supposed to be in permanent crunch mode.
  - rpeden 3y ago
    Words matter, though. Why call it a sprint if it's not supposed to be anything sprinting? We can literally call it anything we want, so why not pick a better metaphor? I think that many developers who say they dislike Agile really mean they dislike Scrum. I mean, a rugby scrum is pretty violent, and sprinting non-stop is a good way of dying of exhaustion. Come to think of it, some managers do seem to want the workplace to be a ruthless battleground with worker pitted against worker in a relentless flat-out sprint to seen as a "high performer".
    - nradov 3y ago
      The Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe) simply calls it an iteration. This is a neutral term with no implications about the pace of work. https://scaledagileframework.com/iterations/ https://scaledagileframework.com/iterations/
marcosdumay 3y ago
How?
mateo411 3y ago
Agile can help, but I think a vacation/time off is better approach in this scenario.
miroljub 3y ago
It's not that I don't believe you, I'd just enjoy reading an explanation how it solves the problems parent talks about.
lelanthran 3y ago
> Agile solves a lot of these problems Agile causes a lot of those problems. GP just described all the elements of agile, "pick up next ticket as a on as one is closed", "blockers", daily status updates, etc.
bedobi 3y ago
no it doesn't lol it literally causes them? i'm no waterfall advocate but at least with waterfall there's a clear beginning, middle and end to a software project with intuitive places for work, rest and celebration meanwhile doing maintenance on an existing system in an agile environment, esp with kanban, is very often literally what the poster is describing, an endless slog through tickets that aren't particularly noteworthy and thus don't really merit much consideration or celebration when done etc
- nradov 3y ago
  Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe) has a regular program increment cadence of every 8-12 weeks. This provides intuitive places for work, rest, and celebration. https://scaledagileframework.com/planning-interval/ https://scaledagileframework.com/planning-interval/

Agile solves a lot of these problems.

danwee 3y ago

How so? If there are boring bugs to be fixed, someone will need to fix them regardless of the methodology used.

Humdeee 3y ago

Eureka! If only it was this easy...

reflectiv 3y ago

What kind of stupid statement is this...no it certainly does not. But humor me with an explanation, please...

vegetablepotpie 3y ago
I don’t k now why I’m being downvoted. Agile lets you manage expectations and set boundaries by scheduling a finite amount of work into a bounded amount of time.

fnimick 3y ago

Does it? At one of my former jobs management would regularly pressure engineers into doing late nights at sprint end (every other week) if we were "behind". Then if we finished things a day into the next sprint, the PM would backdate the completion to make it look like we had hit the previous sprint, since sprint completion percentage was an OKR and people's bonuses and promotions depended on it. Then since we hit the sprint, obviously our velocity had to go up for the next one, even though we were starting a day late from scrambling to "finish" the last one. There's a reason I don't work there anymore.

robbintt 3y ago
Name & shame
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  Pretty much everywhere, unfortunately.
zimzam 3y ago
The expectation that engineers work overtime to hit arbitrary metrics can’t be fixed by a process like scrum or waterfall though. Process can’t replace competent management.

lowbloodsugar 3y ago

Agile done right solves these problems. I have yet to see Agile done right, even once. And I've done XP since ~2003 and Scrum since 2006. It is now clear to me that Agile does not solve these problems: a solid leadership team solves these problems, and sometimes solid leadership teams use Agile (whether formally like Scrum, or informally, like just good communication). But Agile is the canary in the coal mine: it reveals very quickly if you have a solid leadership team or not.

marcosdumay 3y ago
Agile done right is about some completely different problems. AFAIK, it does nothing to help here. But a solid leadership does help.
tremon 3y ago
To me, "agile" in these discussions only apportions blame, it's orthogonal to the quality of software. When it's an agile project, either devs will choose to do the right thing, or too many developers will work on new features, whether because it gives them more visibility or because they like working on features more. And when it's not agile, either you have a product/team manager that understands the importance of not drowning in tech debt, or you have a manager that constantly prioritizes features over quality. Neither approach guarantees that the right choices will be made, just that in Agile, the developers mostly have themselves to blame.
augustk 3y ago
> Agile done right solves these problems It's funny that Agile is always something else. It cannot be criticized because then your are doing it wrong. It's like a theory which is not falsifiable.
bedobi 3y ago
no true scotsman is all agile advocates have don't get me wrong agile is an improvement in the sense that iterating on small deliverables is better than a single giant waterfall process, no disagreement there but yeah if your tool never delivers in the alleged benefits, ever, anywhere, then it's not good enough to say the problem is the people tools are welded by people if your tool doesn't take that into account and assumes and requires its users to be perfect, well, then it's not a very good tool

edrxty 3y ago

%s/solves/creates/ I don't care what the theoretical outcome is when the practical one is always this.

liveoneggs 3y ago

Now, of course, everybody is going to start moaning, "But I have all this speed. I'm agile. I'm fast. You know, this easy stuff is making my life good because I have a lot of speed." What kind of runner can run as fast as they possibly can from the very start of a race? [Audience reply: Sprinter] Right, only somebody who runs really short races, okay? [Audience laughter] But of course, we are programmers, and we are smarter than runners, apparently, because we know how to fix that problem, right? We just fire the starting pistol every hundred yards and call it a new sprint. https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hickey_Rich/SimpleMadeEasy.md https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hi...

romanows 3y ago
Agile isn't meant to imply speed in the sense of LoC/s, though right? The speed in Agile is about getting customer feedback sooner rather than later (so maybe a kind of latency?). I don't think sprints are mentioned in the Agile manifesto or related materials. And even within frameworks like Scrum, I don't think that "sprint" was ever intended to mean that programmers are supposed to be in permanent crunch mode.
- rpeden 3y ago
  Words matter, though. Why call it a sprint if it's not supposed to be anything sprinting? We can literally call it anything we want, so why not pick a better metaphor? I think that many developers who say they dislike Agile really mean they dislike Scrum. I mean, a rugby scrum is pretty violent, and sprinting non-stop is a good way of dying of exhaustion. Come to think of it, some managers do seem to want the workplace to be a ruthless battleground with worker pitted against worker in a relentless flat-out sprint to seen as a "high performer".
  - nradov 3y ago
    The Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe) simply calls it an iteration. This is a neutral term with no implications about the pace of work. https://scaledagileframework.com/iterations/ https://scaledagileframework.com/iterations/

marcosdumay 3y ago

How?

mateo411 3y ago

Agile can help, but I think a vacation/time off is better approach in this scenario.

miroljub 3y ago

It's not that I don't believe you, I'd just enjoy reading an explanation how it solves the problems parent talks about.

lelanthran 3y ago

> Agile solves a lot of these problems Agile causes a lot of those problems. GP just described all the elements of agile, "pick up next ticket as a on as one is closed", "blockers", daily status updates, etc.

bedobi 3y ago

no it doesn't lol it literally causes them? i'm no waterfall advocate but at least with waterfall there's a clear beginning, middle and end to a software project with intuitive places for work, rest and celebration meanwhile doing maintenance on an existing system in an agile environment, esp with kanban, is very often literally what the poster is describing, an endless slog through tickets that aren't particularly noteworthy and thus don't really merit much consideration or celebration when done etc

nradov 3y ago
Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe) has a regular program increment cadence of every 8-12 weeks. This provides intuitive places for work, rest, and celebration. https://scaledagileframework.com/planning-interval/ https://scaledagileframework.com/planning-interval/