9 ms·

At one point, it wasn’t an Irish company. Now technically the American company sold or transferred its IP to the Irish company. But it did so as a fiction, to

At one point, it wasn’t an Irish company. Now technically the American company sold or transferred its IP to the Irish company. But it did so as a fiction, to avoid taxes, and neither I nor a government I help elect are obligated to honor that fiction.

hattmall 3y ago
It's no less fiction than any other contract or legal document.
- gemstones 3y ago
  Yes it is, because this one negatively affects enough people that the law should make a special case to disallow it. Contracts are enforceable when laws say they are enforceable, but governments are free to change laws. If the government says it is a fiction, it is a fiction.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- gemstones 3y ago
  Although in this case, this was a good use of government time even if it goes to the courts! I would like to see the government instill a culture of fear in these companies’ legal departments, that leaves them wondering them the law will change to hit them.
- lmm 3y ago
  The idea that the business' value is being created in Bermuda (in Google's case, but there will be similar things going on here) is a fiction. The idea that what creates the value is a single concrete piece of intellectual property is a fiction. The idea that that piece of intellectual policy was transferred to Bermuda is a fiction. The idea that what was transferred could be legitimately valued at zero when transferred and yet suddenly responsible for 100% of the business' value in subsequent years is an especially blatant fiction. I'd love to see the government of Bermuda nationalize that piece of intellectial property and claim all of Google's global income. They've made such a careful, vigorous legal argument that it's responsible for 100% of their revenue, surely they would acknowledge the things they've been claiming for years and continue to pay 100% of their profits to Bermuda.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    I'd rather see the US declare that the IP is no longer promoting the progress of science and the useful arts and annul it.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      I would like to see an experiment where a country disallowed any company from keeping any secrets at all - IP or otherwise. Everything on all the companies computers and hard drives would always be visible to competitors and the public. While it discourages long research projects, it really incentivises fast execution and building on other companies designs.
      - thfuran 3y ago
        I think companies overvalue secrecy to the point that most that are able would immediately leave. And I don't think most any industry has such a problem with willingness to execute quickly that trying to incentivize that is worth totally crushing R&D. Hell, I think the world could do with a bit more research and a bit less moving fast and breaking things.
      - hiatus 3y ago
        You might find the culture of gongkai to be in the same vein as your suggestion. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    > government of Bermuda nationalize that piece of intellectial property And, more importantly, nationalize it while compensating the owner for it's declared value, which was zero (or near to).
c0pium 3y ago
Of course they are, it’s a contractual agreement that is within the law. The fact that you don’t like it could not be less relevant, you don’t matter. If the government doesn’t like the law, they can (try) to change it but that has to go through the actual process. They are welcome to be as mad as they want that their law is poorly written but it is still their law.
- skeaker 3y ago
  I believe "their law" is what is being criticized, and GP's "government that I help elect" would do away with "their law." Pointing out that the law being criticized as bad is in fact a law is at best a tautology...
- gemstones 3y ago
  As a voter, I’m OK with them not following the process on this one!
  - c0pium 3y ago
    That’s a very near-sighted idea. Can you really not see the problem?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - gemstones 3y ago
      It’s not a problem for me! It sets a precedent, sure, but I’m okay with the tradeoff there.
- realusername 3y ago
  Every law is judged with the intent behind the action... except for taxes which is the single exception I know of. And here the intent is pretty clear.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
Projectiboga 3y ago
That tax break "Double Irish Dutch Sandwich" is being phased out. It involves both those countries with one of the Irish companies managed out of Bermuda. It has shifted to other schemes now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
- Horffupolde 3y ago
  What other schemes?
  - zdkl 3y ago
    Nice try, FBI.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    As soon as a scheme has a wikipedia page, you can be pretty sure it will become illegal within a year or two...
- nixass 3y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feargal_O%27Rourke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feargal_O%27Rourke You know things are nuts when one corporate accountant gets his own wiki article

hattmall 3y ago

It's no less fiction than any other contract or legal document.

gemstones 3y ago
Yes it is, because this one negatively affects enough people that the law should make a special case to disallow it. Contracts are enforceable when laws say they are enforceable, but governments are free to change laws. If the government says it is a fiction, it is a fiction.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
gemstones 3y ago
Although in this case, this was a good use of government time even if it goes to the courts! I would like to see the government instill a culture of fear in these companies’ legal departments, that leaves them wondering them the law will change to hit them.
lmm 3y ago
The idea that the business' value is being created in Bermuda (in Google's case, but there will be similar things going on here) is a fiction. The idea that what creates the value is a single concrete piece of intellectual property is a fiction. The idea that that piece of intellectual policy was transferred to Bermuda is a fiction. The idea that what was transferred could be legitimately valued at zero when transferred and yet suddenly responsible for 100% of the business' value in subsequent years is an especially blatant fiction. I'd love to see the government of Bermuda nationalize that piece of intellectial property and claim all of Google's global income. They've made such a careful, vigorous legal argument that it's responsible for 100% of their revenue, surely they would acknowledge the things they've been claiming for years and continue to pay 100% of their profits to Bermuda.
- thfuran 3y ago
  I'd rather see the US declare that the IP is no longer promoting the progress of science and the useful arts and annul it.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    I would like to see an experiment where a country disallowed any company from keeping any secrets at all - IP or otherwise. Everything on all the companies computers and hard drives would always be visible to competitors and the public. While it discourages long research projects, it really incentivises fast execution and building on other companies designs.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      I think companies overvalue secrecy to the point that most that are able would immediately leave. And I don't think most any industry has such a problem with willingness to execute quickly that trying to incentivize that is worth totally crushing R&D. Hell, I think the world could do with a bit more research and a bit less moving fast and breaking things.
    - hiatus 3y ago
      You might find the culture of gongkai to be in the same vein as your suggestion. https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
- londons_explore 3y ago
  > government of Bermuda nationalize that piece of intellectial property And, more importantly, nationalize it while compensating the owner for it's declared value, which was zero (or near to).

c0pium 3y ago

Of course they are, it’s a contractual agreement that is within the law. The fact that you don’t like it could not be less relevant, you don’t matter. If the government doesn’t like the law, they can (try) to change it but that has to go through the actual process. They are welcome to be as mad as they want that their law is poorly written but it is still their law.

skeaker 3y ago
I believe "their law" is what is being criticized, and GP's "government that I help elect" would do away with "their law." Pointing out that the law being criticized as bad is in fact a law is at best a tautology...
gemstones 3y ago
As a voter, I’m OK with them not following the process on this one!
- c0pium 3y ago
  That’s a very near-sighted idea. Can you really not see the problem?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - gemstones 3y ago
    It’s not a problem for me! It sets a precedent, sure, but I’m okay with the tradeoff there.
realusername 3y ago
Every law is judged with the intent behind the action... except for taxes which is the single exception I know of. And here the intent is pretty clear.
- sokoloff 3y ago

Projectiboga 3y ago

That tax break "Double Irish Dutch Sandwich" is being phased out. It involves both those countries with one of the Irish companies managed out of Bermuda. It has shifted to other schemes now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

Horffupolde 3y ago
What other schemes?
- zdkl 3y ago
  Nice try, FBI.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  As soon as a scheme has a wikipedia page, you can be pretty sure it will become illegal within a year or two...
nixass 3y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feargal_O%27Rourke https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feargal_O%27Rourke You know things are nuts when one corporate accountant gets his own wiki article