4 ms·

So, I just want to say ... the US money system is whack. My wife is doing some contracting for a company in the US (as a US citizen). In order to actually recei

So, I just want to say ... the US money system is whack. My wife is doing some contracting for a company in the US (as a US citizen). In order to actually receive her funds, she had to use some random-ish (Plaid?) company, and give them access to her entire financial history, just to receive a payment. It was sketchy af. She eventually convinced them to do a normal ACH payment ... but my impression was that people just randomly would give them full access to their banking history without even thinking about it. Now add in the lack of privacy laws, and I'd be more than willing to bet that a company like Google has some kind of profile on your entire financial life (because apparently in the US, money-in-the-bank and empty credit cards means you are trustworthy) to determine whether or not they can trust you with "the secret sauce." Is it really that dystopic these days or am I just really disconnected from it and it isn't that bad? Edit to add: we haven't lived in the US in over half a decade.

anotherhue 3y ago
Plaid = "Give me your bank login" and it is insane. It literally undoes 30 years of computer security advice for layfolk, all for their profit margin. OAuth exists, Plaid should not. Always use ACH.
- kibwen 3y ago
  Same reason I refuse to use Venmo. Yes, I know that Venmo is owned by the banks. No, that doesn't mean I'm going to type my bank account's credentials into your app.
  - prepend 3y ago
    I use Venmo and have never entered my bank login. I just have my routing and account number.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
    Since when did you have to do this to use Venmo?
    - kibwen 3y ago
      Last time I tried was years ago. I'd love to be wrong, because checks are a pain in the ass.
    - Rietty 3y ago
      You don't AFAIK. Mine just asked for a routing and account number.
    - burkaman 3y ago
      You don't, you can use Plaid but you can also just given them a routing and account number. https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221073067-Verifying-Your-Bank-Account https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221073067-Verifying...
  - Terr_ 3y ago
    I mainly use it with some friends to re-balance "who's paying for the meal this time", so I just offer to pay the bill when my Venmo balance gets low. Granted, this gives Venmo a small amount of cash to theoretically make interest off-of, but to me it's worth not entangling it with the routing-numbers of any important accounts.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Venmo is owned by PayPal. You're thinking of Zelle, which is owned by banks. Both are terrible.
  - tzs 3y ago
    Venmo is owned by PayPal. You were probably thinking of Zelle, a similar service owned by several banks. Many of the banks that own Zelle have it built into their banking apps, so if you use one of those you may have Zelle access without any extra credential entering.
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      I am philosophically opposed to ever using Zelle. The banks behind Zelle openly stated in Zelle's planning that one of the motivations behind it was liability shifting, away from the banks, on to consumers. Other benefits to the consumer are just to make the platform more appealing.
      - xyzelement 3y ago
        What kind of liability can we be talking about here?
        FireBeyond 3y ago
        Against fraudulent transactions.
- amelius 3y ago
  > Plaid = "Give me your bank login" and it is insane. Credit card = your "password" is written on the card, and everyone thinks it's normal.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Credit cards severely limit liability, banks don’t. This is why scammers want people to buy gift cards or get banking details rather than just get them to hand over credit card numbers.
  - jakub_g 3y ago
    Which is why EU has mandated 2FA for online payments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_customer_authentication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_customer_authenticati...
  - anotherhue 3y ago
    I'm sorry but you are dangerously wrong. Not only are there enormous protections with the mis-use of one's credit card, but the 'password'/card number is randomly generated and not used elsewhere. A regular person is quite likely to reuse their favourite password for their bank login and therefore expose most of their other services when Plaid is inevitably hacked, or more likely, when someone pretends to be Plaid with typosquatting and the user has learned that giving passwords away is OK.
    - frankreyes 3y ago
      > Not only are there enormous protections with the mis-use of one's credit card, but the 'password'/card number is randomly generated and not used elsewhere. Not true. My mother got a free credit card that she never used and never even took out of her safe box, and a few weeks ago someone used that card to buy a Microsoft gift card. Luckily for her, she regularly checks the bank's statements. I'm convinced there's a workaround to buy stuff using just the numbers, because that's how cards used to work a few decades ago.
    - amelius 3y ago
      > I'm sorry but you are dangerously wrong. I think it is the other way around, sorry. The card number is visible in plain sight. The card number is reused everywhere. Merchant employees often have access to these numbers, and have reportedly used them illegally. Yes, there are protections, but they often apply only after the fact, which can cause lots of problems, e.g. if you're traveling and reached your card limit. Also, not everyone checks their transactions at the end of the month, so many cases of fraud may go undetected. Given modern security methods, credit card numbers are just plain silly, and yes, they may be even dangerous.
compiler-guy 3y ago
Background checks are routine in the industry, and they often include a credit report. So it's not just Google, but at least all the big ones.
- k1t 3y ago
  There is a huge difference between an employer looking at your credit report and an employer reading your bank statements.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Wait, you could have a candidate refused because they have too much debt to repay ? That feels wild.
  - compiler-guy 3y ago
    That is a big step from what I said. Google does a background check, which includes a credit report. But there is no evidence that I know of that too much debt would be a reason to be refused. Things that can cause refusal that I know of include lying about your degree.
    - makeitdouble 3y ago
      I understand you're not implying misuse by Google, I just have a hard time seeing what legit info a company that's supposed to pay you gets from a credit history check. Up until now I only ever heard of this kind of check for military and national security adjacent positions, not done as a routine for generic positions.
  - PeterisP 3y ago
    It would mostly be impacted not by having a large mortgage, but by having missing payments or insolvency; and that is considered to imply that the person is 'more risky' in other ways as well.
    - withinboredom 3y ago
Tommstein 3y ago
A few months ago someone sent me like 5 or 10 dollars on Cash App. Imagine my great surprise upon learning that in order to transfer it to a bank account I had previously transferred money to, I now had to give my bank login details to some Plaid assholes I had never even heard of. Cash App support was 100% useless ("just follow these steps that are the exact way you're ending up with Plaid's demand for your bank login credentials!"), but I eventually found some workaround on the website or something. And that was the last time I will ever use Cash App, they and Plaid can both go die in all the fires.
- Gare 3y ago
  Maybe I'm missing something, but in EU you can just link your debit or credit card to similar apps. Why would they need a bank account?
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    Unlike here in the EU, those costs are capped by the government (sending money through a card) and are nearly free (if not actually free). In the US, only slow (~1-2 day bank transfers) are free, and sending money via a card actually costs quite a bit of money (2-5% of the amount). Also, unlike the EU, if someone has your routing number + account number, they can literally just take money out of your account without your consent (with only a 1-2 days in which you can 'stop payment' on it -- once it is complete, you can never get the money back). At least with my EU bank (Bunq), if someone were to do that, I'd have 5 days to decide whether to approve or deny the transaction.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
> Now add in the lack of privacy laws, and I'd be more than willing to bet that a company like Google has some kind of profile on your entire financial life (because apparently in the US, money-in-the-bank and empty credit cards means you are trustworthy) to determine whether or not they can trust you with "the secret sauce." Is that not illegal? That seems like something that would have been made illegal back in the company-town days. Or at least for other reasons if it's not silo'd off. Also, IIRC not having credit card debt makes you less trustworthy in the US credit system.
dudul 3y ago
How is this story representative of the US money system?

anotherhue 3y ago

Plaid = "Give me your bank login" and it is insane. It literally undoes 30 years of computer security advice for layfolk, all for their profit margin. OAuth exists, Plaid should not. Always use ACH.

kibwen 3y ago
Same reason I refuse to use Venmo. Yes, I know that Venmo is owned by the banks. No, that doesn't mean I'm going to type my bank account's credentials into your app.
- prepend 3y ago
  I use Venmo and have never entered my bank login. I just have my routing and account number.
- onlyrealcuzzo 3y ago
  Since when did you have to do this to use Venmo?
  - kibwen 3y ago
    Last time I tried was years ago. I'd love to be wrong, because checks are a pain in the ass.
  - Rietty 3y ago
    You don't AFAIK. Mine just asked for a routing and account number.
  - burkaman 3y ago
    You don't, you can use Plaid but you can also just given them a routing and account number. https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221073067-Verifying-Your-Bank-Account https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/221073067-Verifying...
- Terr_ 3y ago
  I mainly use it with some friends to re-balance "who's paying for the meal this time", so I just offer to pay the bill when my Venmo balance gets low. Granted, this gives Venmo a small amount of cash to theoretically make interest off-of, but to me it's worth not entangling it with the routing-numbers of any important accounts.
- nradov 3y ago
  Venmo is owned by PayPal. You're thinking of Zelle, which is owned by banks. Both are terrible.
- tzs 3y ago
  Venmo is owned by PayPal. You were probably thinking of Zelle, a similar service owned by several banks. Many of the banks that own Zelle have it built into their banking apps, so if you use one of those you may have Zelle access without any extra credential entering.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    I am philosophically opposed to ever using Zelle. The banks behind Zelle openly stated in Zelle's planning that one of the motivations behind it was liability shifting, away from the banks, on to consumers. Other benefits to the consumer are just to make the platform more appealing.
    - xyzelement 3y ago
      What kind of liability can we be talking about here?
      - FireBeyond 3y ago
        Against fraudulent transactions.
amelius 3y ago
> Plaid = "Give me your bank login" and it is insane. Credit card = your "password" is written on the card, and everyone thinks it's normal.
- Retric 3y ago
  Credit cards severely limit liability, banks don’t. This is why scammers want people to buy gift cards or get banking details rather than just get them to hand over credit card numbers.
- jakub_g 3y ago
  Which is why EU has mandated 2FA for online payments https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_customer_authentication https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_customer_authenticati...
- anotherhue 3y ago
  I'm sorry but you are dangerously wrong. Not only are there enormous protections with the mis-use of one's credit card, but the 'password'/card number is randomly generated and not used elsewhere. A regular person is quite likely to reuse their favourite password for their bank login and therefore expose most of their other services when Plaid is inevitably hacked, or more likely, when someone pretends to be Plaid with typosquatting and the user has learned that giving passwords away is OK.
  - frankreyes 3y ago
    > Not only are there enormous protections with the mis-use of one's credit card, but the 'password'/card number is randomly generated and not used elsewhere. Not true. My mother got a free credit card that she never used and never even took out of her safe box, and a few weeks ago someone used that card to buy a Microsoft gift card. Luckily for her, she regularly checks the bank's statements. I'm convinced there's a workaround to buy stuff using just the numbers, because that's how cards used to work a few decades ago.
  - amelius 3y ago
    > I'm sorry but you are dangerously wrong. I think it is the other way around, sorry. The card number is visible in plain sight. The card number is reused everywhere. Merchant employees often have access to these numbers, and have reportedly used them illegally. Yes, there are protections, but they often apply only after the fact, which can cause lots of problems, e.g. if you're traveling and reached your card limit. Also, not everyone checks their transactions at the end of the month, so many cases of fraud may go undetected. Given modern security methods, credit card numbers are just plain silly, and yes, they may be even dangerous.

compiler-guy 3y ago

Background checks are routine in the industry, and they often include a credit report. So it's not just Google, but at least all the big ones.

k1t 3y ago
There is a huge difference between an employer looking at your credit report and an employer reading your bank statements.
makeitdouble 3y ago
Wait, you could have a candidate refused because they have too much debt to repay ? That feels wild.
- compiler-guy 3y ago
  That is a big step from what I said. Google does a background check, which includes a credit report. But there is no evidence that I know of that too much debt would be a reason to be refused. Things that can cause refusal that I know of include lying about your degree.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    I understand you're not implying misuse by Google, I just have a hard time seeing what legit info a company that's supposed to pay you gets from a credit history check. Up until now I only ever heard of this kind of check for military and national security adjacent positions, not done as a routine for generic positions.
- PeterisP 3y ago
  It would mostly be impacted not by having a large mortgage, but by having missing payments or insolvency; and that is considered to imply that the person is 'more risky' in other ways as well.
  - withinboredom 3y ago

Tommstein 3y ago

A few months ago someone sent me like 5 or 10 dollars on Cash App. Imagine my great surprise upon learning that in order to transfer it to a bank account I had previously transferred money to, I now had to give my bank login details to some Plaid assholes I had never even heard of. Cash App support was 100% useless ("just follow these steps that are the exact way you're ending up with Plaid's demand for your bank login credentials!"), but I eventually found some workaround on the website or something. And that was the last time I will ever use Cash App, they and Plaid can both go die in all the fires.

Gare 3y ago
Maybe I'm missing something, but in EU you can just link your debit or credit card to similar apps. Why would they need a bank account?
- withinboredom 3y ago
  Unlike here in the EU, those costs are capped by the government (sending money through a card) and are nearly free (if not actually free). In the US, only slow (~1-2 day bank transfers) are free, and sending money via a card actually costs quite a bit of money (2-5% of the amount). Also, unlike the EU, if someone has your routing number + account number, they can literally just take money out of your account without your consent (with only a 1-2 days in which you can 'stop payment' on it -- once it is complete, you can never get the money back). At least with my EU bank (Bunq), if someone were to do that, I'd have 5 days to decide whether to approve or deny the transaction.

extraduder_ire 3y ago

> Now add in the lack of privacy laws, and I'd be more than willing to bet that a company like Google has some kind of profile on your entire financial life (because apparently in the US, money-in-the-bank and empty credit cards means you are trustworthy) to determine whether or not they can trust you with "the secret sauce." Is that not illegal? That seems like something that would have been made illegal back in the company-town days. Or at least for other reasons if it's not silo'd off. Also, IIRC not having credit card debt makes you less trustworthy in the US credit system.

dudul 3y ago

How is this story representative of the US money system?