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Stop EU Chat Control
- hcfman 3y agoAs software makers we can also apply pressure to governments through the software we make. Local government too often simply sighs off on what Brussels proposes. They don’t seem to realise that bad laws need to be rejected. Software makers can choose to make licenses that disallow government use from governments that vote in these bas laws.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y agoThis is a joke, right? Edit: I am aware about EU DMA that has working on mls and interoperability but nothing about csam and breaking encryption or sharing with third parties.... How will both exist together? Is chat control part of new legislation supposed to undermine DMa?
- redder23 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- redder23 3y agoStating a opinion and calling out stupid comments (that later got edited to make them less stupid) is not "flamebait". How about you stop shadow-banning people? If anything the OP of this thread was "unsubstantive" and "flamebait". And if "Most stories about politics ... are probably off-topic" WTF is this bullshit? What is "probably". Who decides what "Political ... or other stories are not for this site and what are? This is so typical tech vague BS. There are political stories that have absolutely nothing to do with tech posted here on a daily basis, nobody respects or understands this stupid guideline. They all just tell themselves "my political story is totally not off-topic for HN" because the guidelines are so vague.
- brigandish 3y agoYou've got a point because that comment was edited (I know, not just because of the note the OP has used but because I also replied to it prior to the edit). However, you're not going to get far if you put it like that. My advice, as a former shadowbanned hothead, would be to give dang an email and apologise, and point out calmly that you were responding to a comment that was later edited, and that'll you'll try to be less openly aggressive when posting in future. Dang probably appreciates nice emails like that. Snark is supposedly discouraged on HN but I guess it's hard to police, you might move on to that ;-)
- dang 3y agoYou might want to familiarize yourself with how we think about these things—for example the question of how to moderate political stories on HN. There are lots of past explanations on that at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.... These two links are ok starting points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844 (Nov 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902490 (April 2020) This site has a 15-year history with these questions. You're absolutely welcome to disagree with how we do things but it would be good to know what the approach actually is before agreeing or disagreeing with it. It's based on some pretty clear principles. If you can figure out a better way to moderate HN with respect to such questions—that is, a way which does a better job of following those principles—I'd love to hear about it.
- stavros 3y agoIt doesn't look like a joke.
- brigandish 3y agoWhat makes you think that?
- codetrotter 3y agoOn whose part? EU? Or the protestors? If the latter, why? Because of the emojis?
- Affric 3y agoIt’s like it’s repeating itself or using too many punctuation marks. Emoji are meant to be the informal and succinct. The emoji don’t make it briefer. With that said the message is very serious. And serious isn’t disjunct to formal. I think highlighting the difference between the people (real warm) and the bureaucracy (operated by people who are taught to turn off their empathy to serve the system) is worthwhile and has been proven effective in populist campaigns of late. All in all it’s interesting political communication.
- 2Gkashmiri 3y agoWhat's.... The proboe with emojis now?
- Affric 3y agoThey are like little doodles in the text. They don't convey any more information than is already in there. Things which are urgent are generally best written with as little adornment as possible. If someone isn't already for the cause it can cause them to not take your writing seriously. Imagine if you're the parent of a child and they send you this message: > "Active shooter at school " The time taken to get the emoji undercut the seriousness of the message. They are apparently trying to communicate something important but deliberately wasting my time.
- Affric 3y agoOriginally the quoted message included emojis but obviously HN kills them
- imchillyb 3y agoThis legislation is not a joke at all. > https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ > Currently a regulation is in place allowing providers to scan communications voluntarily (so-called “Chat Control 1.0”). So far only some unencrypted US communications services such as GMail, Facebook/Instagram Messenger, Skype, Snapchat, iCloud email and X-Box apply chat control voluntarily (more details here). As a result of the mandatory Chat Control 2.0 proposal, the Commission expects a 3.5-fold increase in scanning reports (by 354%). > https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=COM%3A2022%3A209%3AFIN&qid=1652451192472 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=COM%3A20...
- Semaphor 3y ago> Is chat control part of new legislation supposed to undermine DMa? Ursula von der Leyen has a long history of instrumenting children and CSAM to get more control. She did the same in Germany, she’s an utterly despicable person.
- nceqs3 3y agoImagine thinking stopping the horrors of child sexual abuse makes you an evil person. Perhaps you are projecting.
- Semaphor 3y agoedit: Nevermind, saw what kind of comments you post, not engaging with trolls.
- dang 3y agoCould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. Edit: it looks like you've been breaking the site guidelines quite badly on a regular basis—for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37733548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37733548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37718945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37718945 (Sept 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37100652 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37100652 (Aug 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36975625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36975625 (Aug 2023) This kind of thing destroys what the site is for, so if it keeps up, we're going to have to ban you. If you'd please stick to the guidelines from now on, that would be good. Among other things, that means no personal attacks, putdowns, or snark.
- barbazoo 3y agoMy bet is she's ignorant and/or incompetent but not "evil" in the way you imply.
- polski-g 3y agoIt seems like most of these problems can be alleviated by two actions: 1) don't have servers in Europe 2) don't hire Europeans If Europe wants to regulate themselves into the stone age, they should be free to do it.
- marcus_holmes 3y agoI don't think that's a valid proposition for most international businesses. Europe is too big a market for this.
- donatj 3y agoTheir value is largely overstated. Most of continental Europe has very little actual disposable income. https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fzaiuk8pn7p781.jpg https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fz...
- AnnikaL 3y agoWestern Europe seems to hover around $20,000 to $30,000 in disposable income, which seems like quite a bit. Certainly it's more than Eastern Europe and Asia have, even if it's less than parts of North America and Oceania.
- bee_rider 3y agoIt looks like they have more disposable income that every country other than the United States.
- chmod775 3y agoDisposable income is extremely pointless to compare if you want to figure out how much people will have left to pay for your product. Look at actual spending in whichever category you're interested in. To illustrate, let's subtract some spending categories from that disposable income which tech companies generally don't compete for: Germans spend $13713 + $1604 on housing/lodging vs $22624 for Americans, education $255 vs $1226, food $5706 vs $8289, health $1632 vs $5452. So comparatively Americans are already down $14681 of that disposable income, which definitely won't be spent on whatever some American tech darling produces - food, housing, education, and health spending is generally considered more important than getting a Meta Quest headset. At the end of the day US/Germany spend the same amount of money on entertainment/recreation almost to the dollar. France is similar in that regard and together Germany and France are already a market of close to 150 million people. Numbers are from 2021 using the historic EUR/USD exchange rates. The point is: drill down to some category and compare actual spending in it. You'll be surprised how wildly some things vary even between countries that nominally have the same disposable income. US Data: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm German Data: https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Einkommen-Konsum-Lebensbedingungen/Konsumausgaben-Lebenshaltungskosten/Tabellen/privater-konsum-d-lwr.html https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Einkom...
- xvector 3y agoThe EU is a total clusterfuck when it comes to tech regulation. Maybe the only good thing out of the EU is GDPR, everything else has been a massive overreach doing more harm than good.
- extraduder_ire 3y agoThe pricing directive is pretty boss. It's the main reason EEA countries show the full price of something on their price label, as well as unit prices (e.g. cost per kg) in most cases. You may not be aware of it if you're outside of europe though.
- royal_ts 3y agoEuropean Accessibility Act for 2025 is also great
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago> Maybe the only good thing out of the EU is GDPR How is GDPR any good? All I saw is addition of misleading popups in the sites without any actual improvement to privacy. Has any big tech reduced data collection after GDPR?
- makeitdouble 3y ago> Has any big tech reduced data collection after GDPR? Any big tech still operating in the EU did. A lot.
- YetAnotherNick 3y agoAny example or source? All the big tech is still operating in EU and I don't know of any reduction in data collection.
- howenterprisey 3y agoAre you in a position where you would know firsthand whether big tech data collection is trending up or down, or if not, could you share the research you've done to reach your conclusion? It seems plausible to me that the fines and other penalties have forced changes in how some companies operate, based on the large fines (absolute value, not % of revenue...) that have made the news in the past five-ish years.
- marcus_holmes 3y agoA bit less than 25 years ago, I was IT director at a small tech company. The MD approached me and asked about how we stop people looking at pr0n on the company's internet. I looked into it, and worked out how much we'd need to restrict and monitor everyone's internet activity. And then realised that this wasn't a tech problem at all. If someone is looking at pr0n instead of doing their job, then that's a line management problem. Exactly the same as if they were reading a copy of Playboy at their desk. Preventing child abuse is, similarly, not a tech problem. It's a human problem. The internet did not cause this problem, and if we monitor every single byte sent over a wire, the problem will still remain.
- phowat 3y agoWhy not just write "porn" ? Is there some sort of filter here on hn I'm not aware of ?
- KirillPanov 3y agoYes, quite a few in fact. That's why you'll see a lot of intentional mis-spellings like "virtual signaling".
- pseudalopex 3y agoDo you mean virtue signaling is filtered? It is not.
- marcus_holmes 3y agoNot so much these days. But back in the day one of the crude efforts to control access to porn on the internet was filtering for the word "porn", which lead to a standard mis-spelling of it as "pr0n". Which became so ingrained that I now spell it that way by default. I was mostly referencing that rather than trying to avoid an actual filter now.
- abdusco 3y agoAny filter worth its salt would also include "pr0n" along with "porn"
- frizlab 3y agoIn French the autogenerated text is a (bad) joke. As an argument as to why the chat control law should not pass it’s saying chats are pets and are a part of the family! Because yes, chat means cat in French… I stopped reading after that and increased my already great distaste for LLM and co. It’s sad because we actually must stop chat control. It’s a terrible idea. (Like most EU regulations nowadays.)
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y agoWhat autogenerated French text? The only two languages offered seem to be English and German.
- T-A 3y agoScroll down to "Send your local member of the European Parliament an e-mail with the drafting help of GPT-3!"
- FireInsight 3y agoSame thing in finnish, but a bit less worse. Starts almost sounding like a poorly translated scam email with some europatriotism mixed in.
- DavideNL 3y ago[offtopic] "You do not have access to stopchatcontrol.eu. The site owner may have set restrictions that prevent you from accessing the site." "Performance & security by Cloudflare" Sigh... perhaps we should start "stopCloudflareAccessControl.eu". [/offtopic]
- derelicta 3y agoCasual reminder there are talks to extend the reach of the chat control, now plenty of reactionary politicians wish it could also target regular criminal offenses, like drug dealing, or drag shows.
- rand846633 3y agoCopyright infringement will follow soon..