14 ms·

In my experience, if a company is majority software, it's a weird combination of hubris and ignorance that I don't really see in other sectors. I consult on pr

In my experience, if a company is majority software, it's a weird combination of hubris and ignorance that I don't really see in other sectors. I consult on product development and I'd say about 50% the time, software majority companies think you are trying to rip them off somehow when you try to explain everything that is NOT software that needs to be done, what it costs and how long it takes (and how important it is to lock things in early as you can't just "push out a patch" for a $50,000 molding tool or that you can't just "slap bluetooth in later" and not redo all of your EMC certs).

asdefghyk 3y ago
How about using a pre certified bluetooth module ? would this avoid having to redo EMC certs ? OR make very much simpler? Of course there may a "cost penalty " for this option ....
- exmadscientist 3y ago
  We always recommend radio modules for anything but the highest volume new products. It's easy to cost-reduce one out (worst case, you just build the module yourself), it just takes a bit of cash flow to pay for it. And if your product isn't earning any money, then you have bigger problems than radio cost....
- pjc50 3y ago
  Anyone doing "small" (<1k) runs will be using bluetooth modules, but unfortunately the EMC cert is for the unit as a whole, at least in the EU. Which makes sense technically as the construction of the whole unit matters - conducted emissions through the power supply, for example. It does make it expensive and annoying to do small production electronics, which is why all the stuff you might see is "modules" from aliexpress.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    <1k units runs tends to get a pass from EU authorities anyway.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      This has no legal status, it's just that hardly anything actually gets checked. Conformity is self-reported, so either you have to lie about conformity and hope that you probably won't see any enforcement, or do the work. You can see how well the "regulation but no enforcement" regime is working by picking up any disposable vape from the street and looking for the WEEE "do not bin" symbol. It will probably be there.
      - IIsi50MHz 3y ago
        Germany is one of those more likely to check. A few years ago, our first few units delivered to Germany were stopped at customs and sent back for no CE mark (how they got sent that way is another matter). So we Made SureTM all units for EU had it. Then Germany rejected again because the "CE" was obviously in the wrong style, on a generic sticker (I'd warned, but been told "It'll be /fine/."). And German Customs said our slip directing customers to our site for setup and operating instructions was insufficient. This time, they held our units until we sent satisfactory documentation. Finally, we were able to send, but with after a warning from Customs that a third error would result in permanent bannage and seizure at the border of anything we sent to Germany.
- negative_zero 3y ago
  Yes and no and it doesn't matter :) Broadly and simplified: Adding a bluetooth module means that, not only is the device no longer "electrically equivalent" (which means you are re-certing), but you have gone from "unintentional radiator" to "intentional", which means you have a different and/or additional set of standards. A pre-certified module (as in, it has modular approval) under FCC means you do not have to test the "intentional radiator" part the module PROVIDED you exactly follow the instructions of the module supplier AND you don't do anything "stupid". Under CE, pre-certified module isn't a thing. It will certainly help you pass from a technical standpoint, but doesn't really let you "short-cut" the testing and paper work. Hope that makes sense and gives a rough idea. edit Apologies for rehashing what others have already said. I should have refreshed.
- duped 3y ago
  > How about using a pre certified bluetooth module The device is what gets certified, not its parts.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
onetokeoverthe 3y ago
[dead]
fsloth 3y ago
Weirdly the reverse is true as well - as a rule of thumb hardware companies seem to be abysmal at software (lots of industry examples). I wonder what causes this hardware/software incompatibility.
- DanielHB 3y ago
  To have good technical leadership, the leaders need to be well versed of all parts of the stack used in the products. It is hard to find generalists that broad given how much experience and education is necessary to reach high enough in each field Heck even software-only companies have problems with this where the technical leadership is, for example, of backend background and they completely fail in frontend and data analysis fronts while having rock solid security.
  - simonbarker87 3y ago
    Hmmmm, sounds like my future niche then. I’ve got a PhD in electronics, developed a consumer product and ran a factory for 8 years to make it, been in dev for 5 years (on top of 10 years of coding) and am now a CTO for a software company. What even would that role be called? I suppose CTO but if a company that does HW and SW.
    - aquariusDue 3y ago
      Chief Technology Unicorn just doesn't have the same nice ring to it. Also there's T shaped skills and there's you with: _________ /|\ / | \ / | \ / | \ Not trying to be snarky, just trying to point out the rarity of such a skill set imo.
      - contingencies 3y ago
        FYI that is the character for "don't" / "no" / "not" in Chinese.
        picture 3y ago
anymouse123456 3y ago
So much of our industrial tooling has been optimized for mass manufacturing. It's incredible what can be done to push unit prices down for large volume production. Because of the focus on mass manufacturing, hardware is incredibly expensive to change. The industry seems to have centered around doing more planning up front. But we (software people), learned 20 years ago (from select Hardware companies) that this is backwards. If the cost of change is high, and that's where your pain is, change more frequently. Mitigate that pain and make it a strength. (See: Toyota Production System) I have a product with an addressable market of something like 300 to 500 units per year. That puts me in the Defense/Aerospace/Medical area, where unit economics are completely insane. And yes. It does feel like being ripped off when someone puts ~30 minutes ($20 max) of Western labor into something and then turns around and charges me $800 for the privilege of supporting an American company.
- mejutoco 3y ago
  > But we (software people), learned 20 years ago (from select Hardware companies) that this is backwards. > (See: Toyota Production System) Ironically, Toyota is moving to gigacasting (large, single piece casting) to reduce costs [1] [1]: https://insideevs.com/news/687481/toyota-new-ev-production-line-japan/ https://insideevs.com/news/687481/toyota-new-ev-production-l...
  - borissk 3y ago
    Very interesting. I guess these giga casts are not very repairable.
    - delfinom 3y ago
      Reparability hurts profit. Every collision with body damage fixed by an autobody shop is stealing money from our overlords.
    - Robotbeat 3y ago
      There are ways to repair, but even with more repairable methods, labor is so expensive that you likely totaled the car if you get to that level of damage.
fsagx 3y ago
in the US, Regulatory-wise, how would a product be viewed that's essentially a raspberry pi in a box? Would it need FCC certification at all?
- hedora 3y ago
  It likely needs FCC certification because the box could accidentally act as an antenna (or the RPi might be subject to different regulations than the product). There are also safety concerns, temperature and humidity testing, and so on to consider.
- negative_zero 3y ago
  Absolutely, yes. Think of it this way: If current runs through it, you need to cert it. Period. Edit: I think the Pi might already have FCC so if you are NOT electrically altering the Pi in anyway, then you won't need to re-cert (as you are essentially installing software on it and for a consumer device FCC doesn't have ESD requirements). For CE, depending on the directive, you'd need to do ESD (adding a box will alter that). Disclaimer: Not compliance advice.
Waterluvian 3y ago
It’s my least favourite part of working in software. Majority of peers drastically underestimate how much work something takes, and where the finish line even is.

asdefghyk 3y ago

How about using a pre certified bluetooth module ? would this avoid having to redo EMC certs ? OR make very much simpler? Of course there may a "cost penalty " for this option ....

exmadscientist 3y ago
We always recommend radio modules for anything but the highest volume new products. It's easy to cost-reduce one out (worst case, you just build the module yourself), it just takes a bit of cash flow to pay for it. And if your product isn't earning any money, then you have bigger problems than radio cost....
pjc50 3y ago
Anyone doing "small" (<1k) runs will be using bluetooth modules, but unfortunately the EMC cert is for the unit as a whole, at least in the EU. Which makes sense technically as the construction of the whole unit matters - conducted emissions through the power supply, for example. It does make it expensive and annoying to do small production electronics, which is why all the stuff you might see is "modules" from aliexpress.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  <1k units runs tends to get a pass from EU authorities anyway.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    This has no legal status, it's just that hardly anything actually gets checked. Conformity is self-reported, so either you have to lie about conformity and hope that you probably won't see any enforcement, or do the work. You can see how well the "regulation but no enforcement" regime is working by picking up any disposable vape from the street and looking for the WEEE "do not bin" symbol. It will probably be there.
    - IIsi50MHz 3y ago
      Germany is one of those more likely to check. A few years ago, our first few units delivered to Germany were stopped at customs and sent back for no CE mark (how they got sent that way is another matter). So we Made SureTM all units for EU had it. Then Germany rejected again because the "CE" was obviously in the wrong style, on a generic sticker (I'd warned, but been told "It'll be /fine/."). And German Customs said our slip directing customers to our site for setup and operating instructions was insufficient. This time, they held our units until we sent satisfactory documentation. Finally, we were able to send, but with after a warning from Customs that a third error would result in permanent bannage and seizure at the border of anything we sent to Germany.
negative_zero 3y ago
Yes and no and it doesn't matter :) Broadly and simplified: Adding a bluetooth module means that, not only is the device no longer "electrically equivalent" (which means you are re-certing), but you have gone from "unintentional radiator" to "intentional", which means you have a different and/or additional set of standards. A pre-certified module (as in, it has modular approval) under FCC means you do not have to test the "intentional radiator" part the module PROVIDED you exactly follow the instructions of the module supplier AND you don't do anything "stupid". Under CE, pre-certified module isn't a thing. It will certainly help you pass from a technical standpoint, but doesn't really let you "short-cut" the testing and paper work. Hope that makes sense and gives a rough idea. edit Apologies for rehashing what others have already said. I should have refreshed.
duped 3y ago
> How about using a pre certified bluetooth module The device is what gets certified, not its parts.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

onetokeoverthe 3y ago

[dead]

fsloth 3y ago

Weirdly the reverse is true as well - as a rule of thumb hardware companies seem to be abysmal at software (lots of industry examples). I wonder what causes this hardware/software incompatibility.

DanielHB 3y ago
To have good technical leadership, the leaders need to be well versed of all parts of the stack used in the products. It is hard to find generalists that broad given how much experience and education is necessary to reach high enough in each field Heck even software-only companies have problems with this where the technical leadership is, for example, of backend background and they completely fail in frontend and data analysis fronts while having rock solid security.
- simonbarker87 3y ago
  Hmmmm, sounds like my future niche then. I’ve got a PhD in electronics, developed a consumer product and ran a factory for 8 years to make it, been in dev for 5 years (on top of 10 years of coding) and am now a CTO for a software company. What even would that role be called? I suppose CTO but if a company that does HW and SW.
  - aquariusDue 3y ago
    Chief Technology Unicorn just doesn't have the same nice ring to it. Also there's T shaped skills and there's you with: _________ /|\ / | \ / | \ / | \ Not trying to be snarky, just trying to point out the rarity of such a skill set imo.
    - contingencies 3y ago
      FYI that is the character for "don't" / "no" / "not" in Chinese.
      - picture 3y ago

anymouse123456 3y ago

So much of our industrial tooling has been optimized for mass manufacturing. It's incredible what can be done to push unit prices down for large volume production. Because of the focus on mass manufacturing, hardware is incredibly expensive to change. The industry seems to have centered around doing more planning up front. But we (software people), learned 20 years ago (from select Hardware companies) that this is backwards. If the cost of change is high, and that's where your pain is, change more frequently. Mitigate that pain and make it a strength. (See: Toyota Production System) I have a product with an addressable market of something like 300 to 500 units per year. That puts me in the Defense/Aerospace/Medical area, where unit economics are completely insane. And yes. It does feel like being ripped off when someone puts ~30 minutes ($20 max) of Western labor into something and then turns around and charges me $800 for the privilege of supporting an American company.

mejutoco 3y ago
> But we (software people), learned 20 years ago (from select Hardware companies) that this is backwards. > (See: Toyota Production System) Ironically, Toyota is moving to gigacasting (large, single piece casting) to reduce costs [1] [1]: https://insideevs.com/news/687481/toyota-new-ev-production-line-japan/ https://insideevs.com/news/687481/toyota-new-ev-production-l...
- borissk 3y ago
  Very interesting. I guess these giga casts are not very repairable.
  - delfinom 3y ago
    Reparability hurts profit. Every collision with body damage fixed by an autobody shop is stealing money from our overlords.
  - Robotbeat 3y ago
    There are ways to repair, but even with more repairable methods, labor is so expensive that you likely totaled the car if you get to that level of damage.

fsagx 3y ago

in the US, Regulatory-wise, how would a product be viewed that's essentially a raspberry pi in a box? Would it need FCC certification at all?

hedora 3y ago
It likely needs FCC certification because the box could accidentally act as an antenna (or the RPi might be subject to different regulations than the product). There are also safety concerns, temperature and humidity testing, and so on to consider.
negative_zero 3y ago
Absolutely, yes. Think of it this way: If current runs through it, you need to cert it. Period. Edit: I think the Pi might already have FCC so if you are NOT electrically altering the Pi in anyway, then you won't need to re-cert (as you are essentially installing software on it and for a consumer device FCC doesn't have ESD requirements). For CE, depending on the directive, you'd need to do ESD (adding a box will alter that). Disclaimer: Not compliance advice.

Waterluvian 3y ago

It’s my least favourite part of working in software. Majority of peers drastically underestimate how much work something takes, and where the finish line even is.