12 ms·

I don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxe

I don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxes.

darknavi 3y ago
But then how would Arizona Ice Tea be able to print "$1" on their can??? /s
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  It was 49c in 2017, then it was 89c in 2020, and now it's 99c in 2023.
  - gingerrr 3y ago
    Where? I remember buying Arizona with 99c on it well over a decade ago. edit: it's been 99c for 3 decades, since they started business https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-04-12/az-iced-tea-inflation-99-cents https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-04-12/az-iced-te...
    - sacnoradhq 3y ago
      They put 49c labels over the 99c wherever I bought them in California. I think the 99c price was originally for convenience stores because there were sales of 5 for $2 at Walgreens in 2018.
      - gingerrr 3y ago
        I'm also in CA and lived on Arizona for most of my teens and early 20s. Never saw this pricing. I would have remembered it, especially during the skint college years. It's always been a dollar. At best you'd see 2 for 1 deals. It sounds like you live in a heavily subsidized market - probably best not to try to draw generalizations about inflation from your specific circumstances, they are atypical.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Macha 3y ago
  Preface it with MSRP? I'm in Ireland, I'd say a good third of printed on labels are not even in the right currency, as companies have a single UK and Ireland SKU. It's also understood that generally it's the retailer that sets pricing, not the manfucturer, so when a book has $9.99/£8.99 printed on it and a store sticker with €12.99, nobody is confused that that's not the exchange rates, or about which price they'll pay.
hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I disagree. Note the California bill specifically exempts taxes from this "upfront pricing" requirement. The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments are actually going. If you don't like the fact that you have to pay 3 different taxes, well, if enough other people agree with you, you can change that. I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.
- thinkerswell 3y ago
  Agreed. It’s also a reminder to the voter that these sales tax exist and a reminder they can be lowered or eliminated.
  - shortcake27 3y ago
    Virtually every other country lists prices inclusive of sales tax. People are still aware of sales tax.
    - thinkerswell 3y ago
      There are pros to it, sure. How opposed you are to the sales tax could help dictate how much you want people reminded of it.
  - astrange 3y ago
    Sales taxes are good because tourists pay them. Most people mad about taxes hate property taxes, because they want to move all the tax burden to tourists (and their own children.)
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu In San Francisco, restaurants rarely highlight the fees. They are usually in smaller font at the bottom of the menu (and maybe only on one side of a double-sided menu) and sometimes not discoverable until you get the bill. Here's a typical example (click on 'menu'): https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQVtTW1FA https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQVtTW1FA Tartine hides the 5% surcharge at the bottom of the menu in smaller font. It's also one of three bullets: the first and third are about food safety. What's the rationale for putting the surcharge bullet in between the two food safety bullets? Also: if you order online from Tartine, you won't see the surcharge until you go to check out. And if you order from one of the handwritten 'daily specials' signs, you won't see the surcharge until you pay. (Using Tartine as an example. It's not unique.)
xmprt 3y ago
Taxes are set at a multiple levels (federal, state, district, and city) so it's pretty much impossible to show the post tax price on the label. Hidden fees are a completely different issue.
- Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
  I never understand this argument at all. Your shops have computers with label printers, right? At the Co-op supermarket in our little UK town (population 3000) they’ve even just replaced the shelf price tickets with tiny colour displays.
  - bcrosby95 3y ago
    It's not really a problem in brick and mortar stores. It's a problem in online stores because you can't necessarily give someone the right price with taxes until you have their address. And this problem is harder than some might think. I knew someone who lived on a street that was a "dividing line" for this stuff: same zip code, same city, but one side had a 9% sales tax, the other side had around 7%. We tested a lot of online stores and none of them got it right. Including Amazon.
    - guappa 3y ago
      How do they know how much tax to charge you when you buy? In that same way they know what price to show you.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > How do they know how much tax to charge you when you buy? Did you miss the part about it being calculated in the cart? That’s after you’ve made the decision to purchase, a decision which presumably included the price. I would refuse to give every vendor my address just to see a price.
        pbhjpbhj 3y ago
sacnoradhq 3y ago
VAT like the rest of the world for decades.
- heimidal 3y ago
  The "12.5% service charge" you see all over London would beg to differ.
  - sacnoradhq 3y ago
    Haven't been there in a while, but I was able to collect VAT refunds a LHR. Is that on top of VAT?
    - t3rabytes 3y ago
      The UK is an oddball now -- VAT-free shopping for non-UK citizens ended in 2021. You can still do it in (most?) EU member states though.
    - brewdad 3y ago
      You can’t collect a VAT refund on services, only goods purchased and leaving the country. The VAT on your restaurant bill is non refundable.
    - heimidal 3y ago
      Yes, it's on top of VAT. It's usually "discretionary", meaning you can ask to have it taken off the bill, but you must ask and it usually results in being glared at.

I don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxes.

darknavi 3y ago

But then how would Arizona Ice Tea be able to print "$1" on their can??? /s

sacnoradhq 3y ago
It was 49c in 2017, then it was 89c in 2020, and now it's 99c in 2023.
- gingerrr 3y ago
  Where? I remember buying Arizona with 99c on it well over a decade ago. edit: it's been 99c for 3 decades, since they started business https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-04-12/az-iced-tea-inflation-99-cents https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-04-12/az-iced-te...
  - sacnoradhq 3y ago
    They put 49c labels over the 99c wherever I bought them in California. I think the 99c price was originally for convenience stores because there were sales of 5 for $2 at Walgreens in 2018.
    - gingerrr 3y ago
      I'm also in CA and lived on Arizona for most of my teens and early 20s. Never saw this pricing. I would have remembered it, especially during the skint college years. It's always been a dollar. At best you'd see 2 for 1 deals. It sounds like you live in a heavily subsidized market - probably best not to try to draw generalizations about inflation from your specific circumstances, they are atypical.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Macha 3y ago
Preface it with MSRP? I'm in Ireland, I'd say a good third of printed on labels are not even in the right currency, as companies have a single UK and Ireland SKU. It's also understood that generally it's the retailer that sets pricing, not the manfucturer, so when a book has $9.99/£8.99 printed on it and a store sticker with €12.99, nobody is confused that that's not the exchange rates, or about which price they'll pay.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago

I disagree. Note the California bill specifically exempts taxes from this "upfront pricing" requirement. The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments are actually going. If you don't like the fact that you have to pay 3 different taxes, well, if enough other people agree with you, you can change that. I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.

thinkerswell 3y ago
Agreed. It’s also a reminder to the voter that these sales tax exist and a reminder they can be lowered or eliminated.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  Virtually every other country lists prices inclusive of sales tax. People are still aware of sales tax.
  - thinkerswell 3y ago
    There are pros to it, sure. How opposed you are to the sales tax could help dictate how much you want people reminded of it.
- astrange 3y ago
  Sales taxes are good because tourists pay them. Most people mad about taxes hate property taxes, because they want to move all the tax burden to tourists (and their own children.)
rahimnathwani 3y ago
but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu In San Francisco, restaurants rarely highlight the fees. They are usually in smaller font at the bottom of the menu (and maybe only on one side of a double-sided menu) and sometimes not discoverable until you get the bill. Here's a typical example (click on 'menu'): https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQVtTW1FA https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQVtTW1FA Tartine hides the 5% surcharge at the bottom of the menu in smaller font. It's also one of three bullets: the first and third are about food safety. What's the rationale for putting the surcharge bullet in between the two food safety bullets? Also: if you order online from Tartine, you won't see the surcharge until you go to check out. And if you order from one of the handwritten 'daily specials' signs, you won't see the surcharge until you pay. (Using Tartine as an example. It's not unique.)

xmprt 3y ago

Taxes are set at a multiple levels (federal, state, district, and city) so it's pretty much impossible to show the post tax price on the label. Hidden fees are a completely different issue.

Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
I never understand this argument at all. Your shops have computers with label printers, right? At the Co-op supermarket in our little UK town (population 3000) they’ve even just replaced the shelf price tickets with tiny colour displays.
- bcrosby95 3y ago
  It's not really a problem in brick and mortar stores. It's a problem in online stores because you can't necessarily give someone the right price with taxes until you have their address. And this problem is harder than some might think. I knew someone who lived on a street that was a "dividing line" for this stuff: same zip code, same city, but one side had a 9% sales tax, the other side had around 7%. We tested a lot of online stores and none of them got it right. Including Amazon.
  - guappa 3y ago
    How do they know how much tax to charge you when you buy? In that same way they know what price to show you.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > How do they know how much tax to charge you when you buy? Did you miss the part about it being calculated in the cart? That’s after you’ve made the decision to purchase, a decision which presumably included the price. I would refuse to give every vendor my address just to see a price.
      - pbhjpbhj 3y ago

sacnoradhq 3y ago

VAT like the rest of the world for decades.

heimidal 3y ago
The "12.5% service charge" you see all over London would beg to differ.
- sacnoradhq 3y ago
  Haven't been there in a while, but I was able to collect VAT refunds a LHR. Is that on top of VAT?
  - t3rabytes 3y ago
    The UK is an oddball now -- VAT-free shopping for non-UK citizens ended in 2021. You can still do it in (most?) EU member states though.
  - brewdad 3y ago
    You can’t collect a VAT refund on services, only goods purchased and leaving the country. The VAT on your restaurant bill is non refundable.
  - heimidal 3y ago
    Yes, it's on top of VAT. It's usually "discretionary", meaning you can ask to have it taken off the bill, but you must ask and it usually results in being glared at.