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Quick advice - see if you can shift that to getting up earlier. You will probably spend the couple of hours in the morning in a way that sets you up for a bette

Quick advice - see if you can shift that to getting up earlier. You will probably spend the couple of hours in the morning in a way that sets you up for a better day vs staying up late sets you up for a bad tomorrow. I say this as an always "late" person who now tries to get up at 5 to work out and reflect, it's been very helpful.

oulu2006 3y ago
That's some nice advice, thank you.
plorkyeran 3y ago
A life changing thing for me was specifically scheduling time to do fun things in the morning before doing the things I have to do. If I wake up at six, I still don’t start my day until eight, and instead spend those two hours on things I otherwise would have done the night before. This broke the feeling of dreading mornings that lead to a negative spiral. Even if I know most of the day will be awful, if I can look forward to my me time in the morning I can convince myself to go to bed.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Wish this worked for me, but my brain straight up ignores[0] any kind of alarm clocks, music, light, etc. until it's something like 10:00 in the morning, or until a person wakes me up (and checks 5-10 minutes later if I'm actually up)[1]. So, shifting time to morning turned out to be impossible to maintain when I was living alone - I could hold such schedule for maybe a week at most, gradually oversleeping more and more. Still, it was possible then and I wish I tried harder, because now it's strictly not - I have two small kids, and one true thing about them is that they always wake up earlier than you[2]. So there's no space for personal time in the morning. Also I wonder if I'm the only one here who feels that their mind takes some 2/3 of the day to get into high gear?.It's probably more about emotional balance than cognitive functions, but I feel like I'm best able to focus only from late afternoon onward, making late night the only time that's useful for anything. -- [0] - I tried all kinds of things. Music blaring from the speakers at 06:30 sharp? Within a week, I've mastered getting up, hitting the power button on the amplifier, and falling back to bed in one, smooth move, with ballet-like fluidity. Got an alarm clock that requires you to solve math problems to turn it off? I quickly realized I must've mastered the art of multiplying 2-digit numbers in memory while unconscious, because I would wake up at 11:00 to discover multiple such alarms disabled, with no memory of doing it, or even hearing them ring. [1] - Yes, that means business trips are especially hard for me. When traveling alone, I rely on wake-up calls from my wife (and check-ups afterward). Even with that, I still almost missed a plane once. [2] - Except when there's an important appointment coming up that we need to get up unusually early for - on those nights, they're near-impossible to wake up.
  - heavyjoe 3y ago
    [dead]
  - abdusco 3y ago
    Did you try sleeping earlier? If you regularly sleep at 01:00, then you won't be able to wake up at 06:00. If you go to sleep at 22:00 then it's not as impossible as you think.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      Yes. If I go to sleep at 22:00, I'll be half-awake tossing in bed from 6:00, but still unable to get up until ~10:00.
  - sinman 3y ago
    You sound a lot like me - I've even uttered the same line about multiplying two digit numbers in my sleep. Not sure if you already tried it, but the only thing I ever found that worked was melatonin (I've tried both before bed and around 6pm). Much info here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...
  - a96 3y ago
    Sounds familiar. There's probably some sort of pineal gland feature that makes this habitual shifting essentially impossible. You just get more and more sleep deprivation combined with lying in bed not sleeping. My ex wife told me I'd once answered her phone call in the morning and had a complete conversation only speaking absolute nonsense until she hung up. I had no recollection of that at all. Two things that might work in these cases are melatonin and bright "sun"light in the morning. These should control the natural circadian cycle. I haven't found success, yet, but haven't tried too hard since I can live with my schedule.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      > My ex wife told me I'd once answered her phone call in the morning and had a complete conversation only speaking absolute nonsense until she hung up. I had no recollection of that at all. I've had that several times. The kicker is, I actually did make enough sense that she didn't suspect I wasn't awake, and it wasn't until later that I learned from her that the conversation happened - usually because I agreed to something, or was given important information, which I had no recollection of. The phone log, of course, confirmed a conversation took place. Melatonin sounds like it may work long-term, but at this point my wakeup time is set by our kids, and my bedtime is set by my acute revenge bedtime procrastination, so sleep deprivation it is :/. I wish there was something that could immediately force/reset the circadian rhythm, which I could use on business travel.
dgb23 3y ago
I agree with this. I struggled the same thing as GP mentioned, and worse. And from my experience it’s a vicious cycle. I don’t necessarily agree with the specific “get up at T”, but generally working towards getting rid of bad sleeping habits (and nutrition etc.) is incredibly beneficial. Seemingly small improvements can have a positive snowball effect. Negative circumstances (like “my job is shit”) can be overcome more easily the more energy you have. Seems trite, but it’s trivially true. My mental state improved gradually and I gathered more courage, got more resilient and more creative. I’m much happier, helpful and have much more impact on my life and my surroundings than ever before. And it all started with the basics.
noufalibrahim 3y ago
Was going to suggest the same thing. A great way to break the cycle is to somehow wake up early one day and force yourself to not sleep. You'll feel very sleepy early in the night and will fall asleep.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  I envy those for whom this is the case. For me, I might be dead tired during the day, but I will spontaneously regain energy in the evening - enough to delay my bedtime a couple hours again. It's absurd and somewhat dangerous - if I ever pull an all-nighter on something, it's really important I force myself to go to sleep early the next day, because I will suddenly become full of energy again come 21:00 - 23:00, go to sleep late again, and suffer further come next morning.
  - matwood 3y ago
    Like jet-lag it can take some time to adjust. But, also like jet-lag, you have to push through.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      But unlike jet-lag, it reverts back to baseline as soon as you stop pushing.
    - lostdog 3y ago
      Do you have any reason to believe this applies to people who are not you?
jmkd 3y ago
I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.
- a96 3y ago
  "Have you tried not being depressed?" "Thanks, I'm cured."
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  I suffered from delayed sleep phase syndrome for years and years. Root cause was undiagnosed health issues causing chronic pain and alertness. Once I nailed down the problem all it took from there was a mere complete lifestyle change, once which takes constant discipline to maintain. Which I manage to maintain mostly because lapses in discipline result in me being slapped hard back to reality. I was told to try melatonin so - many - times. I had so many printouts on sleep hygiene handed to me over the years. I was told repeatedly both to wake up early AND to restrict how long I spend in bed. Being told to wake up early was given The idea of doing a differential NEVER occurred to people as my sleep problems were obviously a result of my poor ethics and laziness and could be fixed with nothing more than an attitude adjustment. The point of this all being, is to say I agree with you rather strongly.
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    Dealing with similar issues myself, what health issues did you discover and what do you do to cope?
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.
Zenul_Abidin 3y ago
These days I sleep at around 8, and it made it much easier for me to get up at 5 and still get 8 hours of sleep. And then I have energy to do basically anything in those early hours. If I even get just 6 hours, I immediately feel crankiness the next day.
- Macha 3y ago
  I finish work at like 6. Add an hour for cooking and eating dinner after that and it leaves 1 hour for personal activities with such a schedule. If I go to the office for a day, I don't get home until 7:30pm.
hickelpickle 3y ago
This is what I do to maintain a some what normal sleep schedule while having to find quite time to work on personal projects with a 4yo in my free time. The thing that gets me is I seem to be way more productive at the end of the day at night. Idk if its just being a night owl, or maybe something to do with attention issues, but I feel like I grind out a lot more code from say 10->3am than 3am->8am even if I am more tired near the end of the night if I stay up late. But I still stick to the waking up early routine as I get a good rest and can always "sleep in" by getting up a little later so I always get 6-7 hours sleep instead of 5-6.
gofreddygo 3y ago
I tried to get up early (5am) almost all my adult life. Till I could, after I was a parent. My key observation is this, no matter how well I sleep, I will wake up groggy eyed, my mind begging me to go back to bed, for my own sake. I get out of bed as soon as my eyes open unless its before 4am. My mind plays the dirty trick every day, and I have to tell myself, "what good will a few more minutes of sleep do that the whole night could not" and I'm up. If my head hurts 10 mins after I'm out of bed, I go back to bed.

oulu2006 3y ago

That's some nice advice, thank you.

plorkyeran 3y ago

A life changing thing for me was specifically scheduling time to do fun things in the morning before doing the things I have to do. If I wake up at six, I still don’t start my day until eight, and instead spend those two hours on things I otherwise would have done the night before. This broke the feeling of dreading mornings that lead to a negative spiral. Even if I know most of the day will be awful, if I can look forward to my me time in the morning I can convince myself to go to bed.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
Wish this worked for me, but my brain straight up ignores[0] any kind of alarm clocks, music, light, etc. until it's something like 10:00 in the morning, or until a person wakes me up (and checks 5-10 minutes later if I'm actually up)[1]. So, shifting time to morning turned out to be impossible to maintain when I was living alone - I could hold such schedule for maybe a week at most, gradually oversleeping more and more. Still, it was possible then and I wish I tried harder, because now it's strictly not - I have two small kids, and one true thing about them is that they always wake up earlier than you[2]. So there's no space for personal time in the morning. Also I wonder if I'm the only one here who feels that their mind takes some 2/3 of the day to get into high gear?.It's probably more about emotional balance than cognitive functions, but I feel like I'm best able to focus only from late afternoon onward, making late night the only time that's useful for anything. -- [0] - I tried all kinds of things. Music blaring from the speakers at 06:30 sharp? Within a week, I've mastered getting up, hitting the power button on the amplifier, and falling back to bed in one, smooth move, with ballet-like fluidity. Got an alarm clock that requires you to solve math problems to turn it off? I quickly realized I must've mastered the art of multiplying 2-digit numbers in memory while unconscious, because I would wake up at 11:00 to discover multiple such alarms disabled, with no memory of doing it, or even hearing them ring. [1] - Yes, that means business trips are especially hard for me. When traveling alone, I rely on wake-up calls from my wife (and check-ups afterward). Even with that, I still almost missed a plane once. [2] - Except when there's an important appointment coming up that we need to get up unusually early for - on those nights, they're near-impossible to wake up.
- heavyjoe 3y ago
  [dead]
- abdusco 3y ago
  Did you try sleeping earlier? If you regularly sleep at 01:00, then you won't be able to wake up at 06:00. If you go to sleep at 22:00 then it's not as impossible as you think.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Yes. If I go to sleep at 22:00, I'll be half-awake tossing in bed from 6:00, but still unable to get up until ~10:00.
- sinman 3y ago
  You sound a lot like me - I've even uttered the same line about multiplying two digit numbers in my sleep. Not sure if you already tried it, but the only thing I ever found that worked was melatonin (I've tried both before bed and around 6pm). Much info here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-than-you-wanted-to-know/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...
- a96 3y ago
  Sounds familiar. There's probably some sort of pineal gland feature that makes this habitual shifting essentially impossible. You just get more and more sleep deprivation combined with lying in bed not sleeping. My ex wife told me I'd once answered her phone call in the morning and had a complete conversation only speaking absolute nonsense until she hung up. I had no recollection of that at all. Two things that might work in these cases are melatonin and bright "sun"light in the morning. These should control the natural circadian cycle. I haven't found success, yet, but haven't tried too hard since I can live with my schedule.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > My ex wife told me I'd once answered her phone call in the morning and had a complete conversation only speaking absolute nonsense until she hung up. I had no recollection of that at all. I've had that several times. The kicker is, I actually did make enough sense that she didn't suspect I wasn't awake, and it wasn't until later that I learned from her that the conversation happened - usually because I agreed to something, or was given important information, which I had no recollection of. The phone log, of course, confirmed a conversation took place. Melatonin sounds like it may work long-term, but at this point my wakeup time is set by our kids, and my bedtime is set by my acute revenge bedtime procrastination, so sleep deprivation it is :/. I wish there was something that could immediately force/reset the circadian rhythm, which I could use on business travel.

dgb23 3y ago

I agree with this. I struggled the same thing as GP mentioned, and worse. And from my experience it’s a vicious cycle. I don’t necessarily agree with the specific “get up at T”, but generally working towards getting rid of bad sleeping habits (and nutrition etc.) is incredibly beneficial. Seemingly small improvements can have a positive snowball effect. Negative circumstances (like “my job is shit”) can be overcome more easily the more energy you have. Seems trite, but it’s trivially true. My mental state improved gradually and I gathered more courage, got more resilient and more creative. I’m much happier, helpful and have much more impact on my life and my surroundings than ever before. And it all started with the basics.

noufalibrahim 3y ago

Was going to suggest the same thing. A great way to break the cycle is to somehow wake up early one day and force yourself to not sleep. You'll feel very sleepy early in the night and will fall asleep.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
I envy those for whom this is the case. For me, I might be dead tired during the day, but I will spontaneously regain energy in the evening - enough to delay my bedtime a couple hours again. It's absurd and somewhat dangerous - if I ever pull an all-nighter on something, it's really important I force myself to go to sleep early the next day, because I will suddenly become full of energy again come 21:00 - 23:00, go to sleep late again, and suffer further come next morning.
- matwood 3y ago
  Like jet-lag it can take some time to adjust. But, also like jet-lag, you have to push through.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    But unlike jet-lag, it reverts back to baseline as soon as you stop pushing.
  - lostdog 3y ago
    Do you have any reason to believe this applies to people who are not you?

jmkd 3y ago

I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.

a96 3y ago
"Have you tried not being depressed?" "Thanks, I'm cured."
faeriechangling 3y ago
I suffered from delayed sleep phase syndrome for years and years. Root cause was undiagnosed health issues causing chronic pain and alertness. Once I nailed down the problem all it took from there was a mere complete lifestyle change, once which takes constant discipline to maintain. Which I manage to maintain mostly because lapses in discipline result in me being slapped hard back to reality. I was told to try melatonin so - many - times. I had so many printouts on sleep hygiene handed to me over the years. I was told repeatedly both to wake up early AND to restrict how long I spend in bed. Being told to wake up early was given The idea of doing a differential NEVER occurred to people as my sleep problems were obviously a result of my poor ethics and laziness and could be fixed with nothing more than an attitude adjustment. The point of this all being, is to say I agree with you rather strongly.
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  Dealing with similar issues myself, what health issues did you discover and what do you do to cope?
xyzelement 3y ago
I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.

Zenul_Abidin 3y ago

These days I sleep at around 8, and it made it much easier for me to get up at 5 and still get 8 hours of sleep. And then I have energy to do basically anything in those early hours. If I even get just 6 hours, I immediately feel crankiness the next day.

Macha 3y ago
I finish work at like 6. Add an hour for cooking and eating dinner after that and it leaves 1 hour for personal activities with such a schedule. If I go to the office for a day, I don't get home until 7:30pm.

hickelpickle 3y ago

This is what I do to maintain a some what normal sleep schedule while having to find quite time to work on personal projects with a 4yo in my free time. The thing that gets me is I seem to be way more productive at the end of the day at night. Idk if its just being a night owl, or maybe something to do with attention issues, but I feel like I grind out a lot more code from say 10->3am than 3am->8am even if I am more tired near the end of the night if I stay up late. But I still stick to the waking up early routine as I get a good rest and can always "sleep in" by getting up a little later so I always get 6-7 hours sleep instead of 5-6.

gofreddygo 3y ago

I tried to get up early (5am) almost all my adult life. Till I could, after I was a parent. My key observation is this, no matter how well I sleep, I will wake up groggy eyed, my mind begging me to go back to bed, for my own sake. I get out of bed as soon as my eyes open unless its before 4am. My mind plays the dirty trick every day, and I have to tell myself, "what good will a few more minutes of sleep do that the whole night could not" and I'm up. If my head hurts 10 mins after I'm out of bed, I go back to bed.