9 ms·

For me, I find my sleep suffers because of what some describe as "revenge bedtime procrastination". When my job is shit (i.e. now), I'm more inclined to stay on

For me, I find my sleep suffers because of what some describe as "revenge bedtime procrastination". When my job is shit (i.e. now), I'm more inclined to stay on the PC later doing things that bring me some level of joy, or play games to escape the mind spinning its wheels. I seem to more easily recognise that my job is unfulfilling because I'm staying up later or I'm dreading going to bed. Going to bed early for a good night's sleep seems a lot easier a habit to build when my day-life is going well.

sanroot99 3y ago
Similar post should be made on effects of screen time and how it effects sleep
xyzelement 3y ago
Quick advice - see if you can shift that to getting up earlier. You will probably spend the couple of hours in the morning in a way that sets you up for a better day vs staying up late sets you up for a bad tomorrow. I say this as an always "late" person who now tries to get up at 5 to work out and reflect, it's been very helpful.
- oulu2006 3y ago
  That's some nice advice, thank you.
- plorkyeran 3y ago
  A life changing thing for me was specifically scheduling time to do fun things in the morning before doing the things I have to do. If I wake up at six, I still don’t start my day until eight, and instead spend those two hours on things I otherwise would have done the night before. This broke the feeling of dreading mornings that lead to a negative spiral. Even if I know most of the day will be awful, if I can look forward to my me time in the morning I can convince myself to go to bed.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Wish this worked for me, but my brain straight up ignores[0] any kind of alarm clocks, music, light, etc. until it's something like 10:00 in the morning, or until a person wakes me up (and checks 5-10 minutes later if I'm actually up)[1]. So, shifting time to morning turned out to be impossible to maintain when I was living alone - I could hold such schedule for maybe a week at most, gradually oversleeping more and more. Still, it was possible then and I wish I tried harder, because now it's strictly not - I have two small kids, and one true thing about them is that they always wake up earlier than you[2]. So there's no space for personal time in the morning. Also I wonder if I'm the only one here who feels that their mind takes some 2/3 of the day to get into high gear?.It's probably more about emotional balance than cognitive functions, but I feel like I'm best able to focus only from late afternoon onward, making late night the only time that's useful for anything. -- [0] - I tried all kinds of things. Music blaring from the speakers at 06:30 sharp? Within a week, I've mastered getting up, hitting the power button on the amplifier, and falling back to bed in one, smooth move, with ballet-like fluidity. Got an alarm clock that requires you to solve math problems to turn it off? I quickly realized I must've mastered the art of multiplying 2-digit numbers in memory while unconscious, because I would wake up at 11:00 to discover multiple such alarms disabled, with no memory of doing it, or even hearing them ring. [1] - Yes, that means business trips are especially hard for me. When traveling alone, I rely on wake-up calls from my wife (and check-ups afterward). Even with that, I still almost missed a plane once. [2] - Except when there's an important appointment coming up that we need to get up unusually early for - on those nights, they're near-impossible to wake up.
    - heavyjoe 3y ago
      [dead]
    - abdusco 3y ago
      Did you try sleeping earlier? If you regularly sleep at 01:00, then you won't be able to wake up at 06:00. If you go to sleep at 22:00 then it's not as impossible as you think.
      - 3y ago
- dgb23 3y ago
  I agree with this. I struggled the same thing as GP mentioned, and worse. And from my experience it’s a vicious cycle. I don’t necessarily agree with the specific “get up at T”, but generally working towards getting rid of bad sleeping habits (and nutrition etc.) is incredibly beneficial. Seemingly small improvements can have a positive snowball effect. Negative circumstances (like “my job is shit”) can be overcome more easily the more energy you have. Seems trite, but it’s trivially true. My mental state improved gradually and I gathered more courage, got more resilient and more creative. I’m much happier, helpful and have much more impact on my life and my surroundings than ever before. And it all started with the basics.
- noufalibrahim 3y ago
  Was going to suggest the same thing. A great way to break the cycle is to somehow wake up early one day and force yourself to not sleep. You'll feel very sleepy early in the night and will fall asleep.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    I envy those for whom this is the case. For me, I might be dead tired during the day, but I will spontaneously regain energy in the evening - enough to delay my bedtime a couple hours again. It's absurd and somewhat dangerous - if I ever pull an all-nighter on something, it's really important I force myself to go to sleep early the next day, because I will suddenly become full of energy again come 21:00 - 23:00, go to sleep late again, and suffer further come next morning.
    - matwood 3y ago
      Like jet-lag it can take some time to adjust. But, also like jet-lag, you have to push through.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        But unlike jet-lag, it reverts back to baseline as soon as you stop pushing.
      - lostdog 3y ago
        Do you have any reason to believe this applies to people who are not you?
- jmkd 3y ago
  I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.
  - a96 3y ago
    "Have you tried not being depressed?" "Thanks, I'm cured."
  - faeriechangling 3y ago
    I suffered from delayed sleep phase syndrome for years and years. Root cause was undiagnosed health issues causing chronic pain and alertness. Once I nailed down the problem all it took from there was a mere complete lifestyle change, once which takes constant discipline to maintain. Which I manage to maintain mostly because lapses in discipline result in me being slapped hard back to reality. I was told to try melatonin so - many - times. I had so many printouts on sleep hygiene handed to me over the years. I was told repeatedly both to wake up early AND to restrict how long I spend in bed. Being told to wake up early was given The idea of doing a differential NEVER occurred to people as my sleep problems were obviously a result of my poor ethics and laziness and could be fixed with nothing more than an attitude adjustment. The point of this all being, is to say I agree with you rather strongly.
    - nyanpasu64 3y ago
      Dealing with similar issues myself, what health issues did you discover and what do you do to cope?
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.
- Zenul_Abidin 3y ago
  These days I sleep at around 8, and it made it much easier for me to get up at 5 and still get 8 hours of sleep. And then I have energy to do basically anything in those early hours. If I even get just 6 hours, I immediately feel crankiness the next day.
  - Macha 3y ago
    I finish work at like 6. Add an hour for cooking and eating dinner after that and it leaves 1 hour for personal activities with such a schedule. If I go to the office for a day, I don't get home until 7:30pm.
- hickelpickle 3y ago
  This is what I do to maintain a some what normal sleep schedule while having to find quite time to work on personal projects with a 4yo in my free time. The thing that gets me is I seem to be way more productive at the end of the day at night. Idk if its just being a night owl, or maybe something to do with attention issues, but I feel like I grind out a lot more code from say 10->3am than 3am->8am even if I am more tired near the end of the night if I stay up late. But I still stick to the waking up early routine as I get a good rest and can always "sleep in" by getting up a little later so I always get 6-7 hours sleep instead of 5-6.
- gofreddygo 3y ago
  I tried to get up early (5am) almost all my adult life. Till I could, after I was a parent. My key observation is this, no matter how well I sleep, I will wake up groggy eyed, my mind begging me to go back to bed, for my own sake. I get out of bed as soon as my eyes open unless its before 4am. My mind plays the dirty trick every day, and I have to tell myself, "what good will a few more minutes of sleep do that the whole night could not" and I'm up. If my head hurts 10 mins after I'm out of bed, I go back to bed.
oulu2006 3y ago
This^, I'm very much the same. Going to sleep feels like it brings the next day, and if you aren't looking forward to what you have to do the next day....you put it off for as long as possible. I feel you.
- loveparade 3y ago
  I'm the same too. I know it doesn't make logical sense because it starts a bad spiral, but my body (gut?) is trying really hard to procrastinate sleeping because it doesn't want the next day to come. Rationally speaking I know what I should be doing, but it feels like my mind is not strong enough to fight the emotional/gut instinct.
- J_cst 3y ago
  I also procrastinate bed time. I've always linked it to anxiety (non necessarily in strict medical terms/meaning). That's my rationale: In the evening the day's over and 'nothing can happen' anymore for that day, so I feel I can chill out. On the contrary, tomorrow 'anything has yet to happen' and I can have a feeling of worry. That's the reason I've given myself to procrastinate bed time. Not sure of that's the case or I'm just a night owl (possibly that's the case as per Occam's). Anyway, I feel you.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    This is me. For me, it's not about the next day, but exactly about that "nothing can happen" feeling - everyone is finally asleep, no one has any expectations towards me, nobody will be calling me (it's night, it's rude to call people at night), nor will they be texting me (they're normal people, they're already in beds, sleeping). It's the only time my body is able to relax a little. It's the only time I can think about things, without interruptions and the nagging feelings I should be doing something else. I tried, I tried really hard to give it up, but I can't. Now, with small kids in the mix, the mornings are not even an option. This is what "revenge" in "revenge bedtime procrastination" is about. That feeling that it's the only time that's actually yours, the only moment of actual autonomy in your life. Everything else is driven by others - working a job, running errands, being there with your loved ones. When it starts feeling like an unending stream of obligations, those few hours late at night are a form of defiance, showing the middle finger to the universe, reclaiming some time for yourself.
m463 3y ago
I created a bedtime nag program and it really helped, especially with hard deadlines like driving someone in the morning. 2 hours to bedtime, 1 hour to bedtime, 30 minutes, etc....
- otikik 3y ago
  Can you expand on that? Is that just a bunch of alarms in your mobile phone, or something more ellaborate?
  - a96 3y ago
    This sounds like something that would just add more stress to going to bed. But might help with the losing track of time problem.
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    I used to have a chron job that forcibly updated and shutdown my pc when it was time for bed. It really helped me stop diving into midnight rabbit holes.
bratbag 3y ago
I've also noticed the opposite. During times when my job is satisfying and I'm on top of everything, I don't even want to touch my pc for fun. Satisfying work drives me towards social activities in my free time.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  I'm a bit reverse. Anxiety drives me towards people. Being on top of everything at work, getting into the flow - I too don't want to touch my PC for fun, but I also don't want to talk to people, or do anything that would "flush the cache" or "page to disk" all the work stuff, because I feel that once I break my stride, I won't regain it any time soon. It's perhaps irrational, but it's something I struggle with - my perfect way of working unfortunately goes against every social expectation, life/work balance stuff, etc.
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
Are you me? Am I you?
fennecfoxy 3y ago
Improving my sleep has beens something I've been meaning to do for a long time and I've heard of that Japanese idea in the past, but haven't entirely gelled with it. I think it's a bit of that and a bit of...something else that makes me stay up way longer than I should do. To be perfectly honest, usually I'm staying up because of "the hormny" or because I've found something technical/geeky to immerse myself in. But I think the core thing is not "losing track" of time, but for some reason I see the time and just feel apathy like, it doesn't matter that it's 2,3 am or whatever.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
For me, it's usually my adhd brain dredging up bad memories. I'm ashamed to admit my go to 'treatment' used to be taking a couple shots of whiskey before bed. That (I think?) caused vivid nightmares which made me avoid going to sleep even more. Eventually, I realized this wasn't healthy and I switched to doing strenuous exercise. Hard to be wound up when you're exhausted! It's not a cure all. Sometimes I wind up doing so many sets of pushups a night that I feel it the next day, but it's definitely better than nothing.
- WXLCKNO 3y ago
  I thought this was my ADHD, turned out to be anxiety, once I got that treated things were much better.
manmal 3y ago
I can highly recommend listening to fiction audiobooks instead of playing games. I‘ve been listening to a few series (latest one the Red Rising series) and only seldomly stayed awake past midnight. With the lights out, I‘ve found it hard not falling asleep with an audiobook.

sanroot99 3y ago

Similar post should be made on effects of screen time and how it effects sleep

xyzelement 3y ago

Quick advice - see if you can shift that to getting up earlier. You will probably spend the couple of hours in the morning in a way that sets you up for a better day vs staying up late sets you up for a bad tomorrow. I say this as an always "late" person who now tries to get up at 5 to work out and reflect, it's been very helpful.

oulu2006 3y ago
That's some nice advice, thank you.
plorkyeran 3y ago
A life changing thing for me was specifically scheduling time to do fun things in the morning before doing the things I have to do. If I wake up at six, I still don’t start my day until eight, and instead spend those two hours on things I otherwise would have done the night before. This broke the feeling of dreading mornings that lead to a negative spiral. Even if I know most of the day will be awful, if I can look forward to my me time in the morning I can convince myself to go to bed.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Wish this worked for me, but my brain straight up ignores[0] any kind of alarm clocks, music, light, etc. until it's something like 10:00 in the morning, or until a person wakes me up (and checks 5-10 minutes later if I'm actually up)[1]. So, shifting time to morning turned out to be impossible to maintain when I was living alone - I could hold such schedule for maybe a week at most, gradually oversleeping more and more. Still, it was possible then and I wish I tried harder, because now it's strictly not - I have two small kids, and one true thing about them is that they always wake up earlier than you[2]. So there's no space for personal time in the morning. Also I wonder if I'm the only one here who feels that their mind takes some 2/3 of the day to get into high gear?.It's probably more about emotional balance than cognitive functions, but I feel like I'm best able to focus only from late afternoon onward, making late night the only time that's useful for anything. -- [0] - I tried all kinds of things. Music blaring from the speakers at 06:30 sharp? Within a week, I've mastered getting up, hitting the power button on the amplifier, and falling back to bed in one, smooth move, with ballet-like fluidity. Got an alarm clock that requires you to solve math problems to turn it off? I quickly realized I must've mastered the art of multiplying 2-digit numbers in memory while unconscious, because I would wake up at 11:00 to discover multiple such alarms disabled, with no memory of doing it, or even hearing them ring. [1] - Yes, that means business trips are especially hard for me. When traveling alone, I rely on wake-up calls from my wife (and check-ups afterward). Even with that, I still almost missed a plane once. [2] - Except when there's an important appointment coming up that we need to get up unusually early for - on those nights, they're near-impossible to wake up.
  - heavyjoe 3y ago
    [dead]
  - abdusco 3y ago
    Did you try sleeping earlier? If you regularly sleep at 01:00, then you won't be able to wake up at 06:00. If you go to sleep at 22:00 then it's not as impossible as you think.
    - 3y ago
dgb23 3y ago
I agree with this. I struggled the same thing as GP mentioned, and worse. And from my experience it’s a vicious cycle. I don’t necessarily agree with the specific “get up at T”, but generally working towards getting rid of bad sleeping habits (and nutrition etc.) is incredibly beneficial. Seemingly small improvements can have a positive snowball effect. Negative circumstances (like “my job is shit”) can be overcome more easily the more energy you have. Seems trite, but it’s trivially true. My mental state improved gradually and I gathered more courage, got more resilient and more creative. I’m much happier, helpful and have much more impact on my life and my surroundings than ever before. And it all started with the basics.
noufalibrahim 3y ago
Was going to suggest the same thing. A great way to break the cycle is to somehow wake up early one day and force yourself to not sleep. You'll feel very sleepy early in the night and will fall asleep.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  I envy those for whom this is the case. For me, I might be dead tired during the day, but I will spontaneously regain energy in the evening - enough to delay my bedtime a couple hours again. It's absurd and somewhat dangerous - if I ever pull an all-nighter on something, it's really important I force myself to go to sleep early the next day, because I will suddenly become full of energy again come 21:00 - 23:00, go to sleep late again, and suffer further come next morning.
  - matwood 3y ago
    Like jet-lag it can take some time to adjust. But, also like jet-lag, you have to push through.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      But unlike jet-lag, it reverts back to baseline as soon as you stop pushing.
    - lostdog 3y ago
      Do you have any reason to believe this applies to people who are not you?
jmkd 3y ago
I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.
- a96 3y ago
  "Have you tried not being depressed?" "Thanks, I'm cured."
- faeriechangling 3y ago
  I suffered from delayed sleep phase syndrome for years and years. Root cause was undiagnosed health issues causing chronic pain and alertness. Once I nailed down the problem all it took from there was a mere complete lifestyle change, once which takes constant discipline to maintain. Which I manage to maintain mostly because lapses in discipline result in me being slapped hard back to reality. I was told to try melatonin so - many - times. I had so many printouts on sleep hygiene handed to me over the years. I was told repeatedly both to wake up early AND to restrict how long I spend in bed. Being told to wake up early was given The idea of doing a differential NEVER occurred to people as my sleep problems were obviously a result of my poor ethics and laziness and could be fixed with nothing more than an attitude adjustment. The point of this all being, is to say I agree with you rather strongly.
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    Dealing with similar issues myself, what health issues did you discover and what do you do to cope?
- xyzelement 3y ago
  I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.
Zenul_Abidin 3y ago
These days I sleep at around 8, and it made it much easier for me to get up at 5 and still get 8 hours of sleep. And then I have energy to do basically anything in those early hours. If I even get just 6 hours, I immediately feel crankiness the next day.
- Macha 3y ago
  I finish work at like 6. Add an hour for cooking and eating dinner after that and it leaves 1 hour for personal activities with such a schedule. If I go to the office for a day, I don't get home until 7:30pm.
hickelpickle 3y ago
This is what I do to maintain a some what normal sleep schedule while having to find quite time to work on personal projects with a 4yo in my free time. The thing that gets me is I seem to be way more productive at the end of the day at night. Idk if its just being a night owl, or maybe something to do with attention issues, but I feel like I grind out a lot more code from say 10->3am than 3am->8am even if I am more tired near the end of the night if I stay up late. But I still stick to the waking up early routine as I get a good rest and can always "sleep in" by getting up a little later so I always get 6-7 hours sleep instead of 5-6.
gofreddygo 3y ago
I tried to get up early (5am) almost all my adult life. Till I could, after I was a parent. My key observation is this, no matter how well I sleep, I will wake up groggy eyed, my mind begging me to go back to bed, for my own sake. I get out of bed as soon as my eyes open unless its before 4am. My mind plays the dirty trick every day, and I have to tell myself, "what good will a few more minutes of sleep do that the whole night could not" and I'm up. If my head hurts 10 mins after I'm out of bed, I go back to bed.

oulu2006 3y ago

This^, I'm very much the same. Going to sleep feels like it brings the next day, and if you aren't looking forward to what you have to do the next day....you put it off for as long as possible. I feel you.

loveparade 3y ago
I'm the same too. I know it doesn't make logical sense because it starts a bad spiral, but my body (gut?) is trying really hard to procrastinate sleeping because it doesn't want the next day to come. Rationally speaking I know what I should be doing, but it feels like my mind is not strong enough to fight the emotional/gut instinct.
J_cst 3y ago
I also procrastinate bed time. I've always linked it to anxiety (non necessarily in strict medical terms/meaning). That's my rationale: In the evening the day's over and 'nothing can happen' anymore for that day, so I feel I can chill out. On the contrary, tomorrow 'anything has yet to happen' and I can have a feeling of worry. That's the reason I've given myself to procrastinate bed time. Not sure of that's the case or I'm just a night owl (possibly that's the case as per Occam's). Anyway, I feel you.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  This is me. For me, it's not about the next day, but exactly about that "nothing can happen" feeling - everyone is finally asleep, no one has any expectations towards me, nobody will be calling me (it's night, it's rude to call people at night), nor will they be texting me (they're normal people, they're already in beds, sleeping). It's the only time my body is able to relax a little. It's the only time I can think about things, without interruptions and the nagging feelings I should be doing something else. I tried, I tried really hard to give it up, but I can't. Now, with small kids in the mix, the mornings are not even an option. This is what "revenge" in "revenge bedtime procrastination" is about. That feeling that it's the only time that's actually yours, the only moment of actual autonomy in your life. Everything else is driven by others - working a job, running errands, being there with your loved ones. When it starts feeling like an unending stream of obligations, those few hours late at night are a form of defiance, showing the middle finger to the universe, reclaiming some time for yourself.

m463 3y ago

I created a bedtime nag program and it really helped, especially with hard deadlines like driving someone in the morning. 2 hours to bedtime, 1 hour to bedtime, 30 minutes, etc....

otikik 3y ago
Can you expand on that? Is that just a bunch of alarms in your mobile phone, or something more ellaborate?
- a96 3y ago
  This sounds like something that would just add more stress to going to bed. But might help with the losing track of time problem.
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  I used to have a chron job that forcibly updated and shutdown my pc when it was time for bed. It really helped me stop diving into midnight rabbit holes.

bratbag 3y ago

I've also noticed the opposite. During times when my job is satisfying and I'm on top of everything, I don't even want to touch my pc for fun. Satisfying work drives me towards social activities in my free time.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
I'm a bit reverse. Anxiety drives me towards people. Being on top of everything at work, getting into the flow - I too don't want to touch my PC for fun, but I also don't want to talk to people, or do anything that would "flush the cache" or "page to disk" all the work stuff, because I feel that once I break my stride, I won't regain it any time soon. It's perhaps irrational, but it's something I struggle with - my perfect way of working unfortunately goes against every social expectation, life/work balance stuff, etc.

ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago

Are you me? Am I you?

fennecfoxy 3y ago

Improving my sleep has beens something I've been meaning to do for a long time and I've heard of that Japanese idea in the past, but haven't entirely gelled with it. I think it's a bit of that and a bit of...something else that makes me stay up way longer than I should do. To be perfectly honest, usually I'm staying up because of "the hormny" or because I've found something technical/geeky to immerse myself in. But I think the core thing is not "losing track" of time, but for some reason I see the time and just feel apathy like, it doesn't matter that it's 2,3 am or whatever.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

For me, it's usually my adhd brain dredging up bad memories. I'm ashamed to admit my go to 'treatment' used to be taking a couple shots of whiskey before bed. That (I think?) caused vivid nightmares which made me avoid going to sleep even more. Eventually, I realized this wasn't healthy and I switched to doing strenuous exercise. Hard to be wound up when you're exhausted! It's not a cure all. Sometimes I wind up doing so many sets of pushups a night that I feel it the next day, but it's definitely better than nothing.

WXLCKNO 3y ago
I thought this was my ADHD, turned out to be anxiety, once I got that treated things were much better.

manmal 3y ago

I can highly recommend listening to fiction audiobooks instead of playing games. I‘ve been listening to a few series (latest one the Red Rising series) and only seldomly stayed awake past midnight. With the lights out, I‘ve found it hard not falling asleep with an audiobook.