38 ms·

If only there were some good and fast internet payment mechanism without middlemen or gatekeepers, where the person getting paid could be immediately 100% sure

by sneak 3y ago

If only there were some good and fast internet payment mechanism without middlemen or gatekeepers, where the person getting paid could be immediately 100% sure that they were in possession of the money. Maybe someone will invent it one day.

CJefferson 3y ago
The problem is that would have the opposite problem, that purchases made with stolen cards were 100% unrecoverable. While im sure we can improve things, the fact that the current system favors individual people, rather than businesses, is intentional, not an accident.
- kolinko 3y ago
  Having a 2FA for credit card / wire transfer payments solves this issue and it's a de facto standard now in many European countries.
- happymellon 3y ago
  How are people using stolen cards? Do your banks not have 2 factor enabled? Using the card not present should require a second factor, Visa Secure type of thing and in person should require your pin for non-frivolous amounts.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    In the late '90s when it happened to me, this wasn't even invented yet. In the US today, 2nd-factor is not widely used at all. Not once I have I been challenged by a 2nd-factor, and if I were to be, I'd have no idea what to do with it.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      If you were purchasing online then it will tell you to refer to your banking app. If it's in perso , them asking for a pin is pretty straightforward. So who is pushing back against this? The networks already have it in place everywhere else, and since it's part of the transaction process there isn't a lot for stores or websites to do.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    In the US, entering a PIN at the terminal is only prompted for debit cards, not credit, and even then you can usually opt to run the debit card as if it were a credit card and just scribble a fake signature.
    - happymellon 3y ago
      But that's a low hurdle to resolve. The Fed should be able to phase in requirements. They've had decades so far.
vanviegen 3y ago
In the Netherlands we have such a system called iDEAL. People use the app/site from their own bank to authorize the payment and the money arrives on the receiver's bank account instantly and irrevocably (without a judge stepping in). It's also very cheap (like 25 cents fixed). Merchant fraud doesn't appear to be a big problem. Probably because the merchant requires a Dutch bank account, which requires a lot of identifying paperwork It's pretty awesome. Many other European companies have a similar system, and I believe there are plans to join them into one system. Let's hope the credit card lobbyist don't manage to mess it up.
- kolinko 3y ago
  Hear hear. We have the same thing in Poland.
- sneak 3y ago
  I’m not knocking it for Dutch people, but the internet needs a trustworthy global payments system that works for more than the 20 million in .nl. It also sucks that you have to provide strong identity to the payer or payee, sending or receiving payments should not require disclosing identity. That’s a bug, not a feature.
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Your need to buy illegal drugs and launder money anonymously and perpetrate fraudulent rug pulls and shill get-rich-quick pyramid schemes should not trump the needs of most other people who simply require a fast, reliable way to make legal secure business transactions without fees and middlemen. Anyway, the Netherlands and rest of the world already has a fully functioning illegal drug trading and money laundering network, without any need for your cryptocurrency bullshit: that's just a solution looking for problems, which it turns out were solved much better, a long time ago.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      I still hope for some solution to the problem that doesn't depend on imaginary internet money the value of which fluctuates wildly by the minute. We can keep using cash for anonymous transactions, but there are so many limitations to cash transactions that money transfers via internet don't have.
Dylan16807 3y ago
I assume you're implying some kind of cryptocurrency, but it's impractical to use those without middlemen and you forgot to say "without huge fees". Also instant 100% certainty is a bit too much in the face of fraud.
- sneak 3y ago
  > but it's impractical to use those without middlemen and you forgot to say "without huge fees". It seems your information is quite a bit out of date. These hasn’t been true for a long time.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    I didn't say that the huge fees are unavoidable, but they're the norm. And okay, tell me about how I get some cryptocurrency in a practical way without big middlemen.
    - sneak 3y ago
      The lightning network works great, as does Ethereum. The incumbents successfully lobbied to get easy on-ramps to this competing system regulated basically out of existence. It’s a tragic story.
      - DonHopkins 3y ago
        Yeah, I'm sure that's how SBF feels too, but now he's in jail where he belongs. But that's just good government regulation and law enforcement working the way they're supposed to, and I wouldn't exactly call his lobbying "successful". It's SUPPOSED to feel tragic for the people who tried to do it, and got caught.
      - camgunz 3y ago
        You can't really use lightning/Ethereum without using an exchange (a big middleman) to convert your fiat to BTC/ETH, because doing it without KYC etc. is money laundering. I don't really think this is incumbents lobbying, I think it's law enforcement saying, "the way we track organized crime is through money, so you can't do this". Crypto advocates know this, because a big selling point they always bring up is "spend money freely without regulation", which phrased another way is "buy/sell things your government doesn't want you to" which is the definition of organized crime--the only difference here is scale.
crosa 3y ago
In Brazil the central bank has such system for free, it's called PIX and is so good and simple to use that some fintechs lost a good chunk of their market share. You only need your National ID or an email. It became even an expression "send me a pix"

by sneak 3y ago

CJefferson 3y ago

The problem is that would have the opposite problem, that purchases made with stolen cards were 100% unrecoverable. While im sure we can improve things, the fact that the current system favors individual people, rather than businesses, is intentional, not an accident.

kolinko 3y ago
Having a 2FA for credit card / wire transfer payments solves this issue and it's a de facto standard now in many European countries.
happymellon 3y ago
How are people using stolen cards? Do your banks not have 2 factor enabled? Using the card not present should require a second factor, Visa Secure type of thing and in person should require your pin for non-frivolous amounts.
- dylan604 3y ago
  In the late '90s when it happened to me, this wasn't even invented yet. In the US today, 2nd-factor is not widely used at all. Not once I have I been challenged by a 2nd-factor, and if I were to be, I'd have no idea what to do with it.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    If you were purchasing online then it will tell you to refer to your banking app. If it's in perso , them asking for a pin is pretty straightforward. So who is pushing back against this? The networks already have it in place everywhere else, and since it's part of the transaction process there isn't a lot for stores or websites to do.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  In the US, entering a PIN at the terminal is only prompted for debit cards, not credit, and even then you can usually opt to run the debit card as if it were a credit card and just scribble a fake signature.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    But that's a low hurdle to resolve. The Fed should be able to phase in requirements. They've had decades so far.

vanviegen 3y ago

In the Netherlands we have such a system called iDEAL. People use the app/site from their own bank to authorize the payment and the money arrives on the receiver's bank account instantly and irrevocably (without a judge stepping in). It's also very cheap (like 25 cents fixed). Merchant fraud doesn't appear to be a big problem. Probably because the merchant requires a Dutch bank account, which requires a lot of identifying paperwork It's pretty awesome. Many other European companies have a similar system, and I believe there are plans to join them into one system. Let's hope the credit card lobbyist don't manage to mess it up.

kolinko 3y ago
Hear hear. We have the same thing in Poland.
sneak 3y ago
I’m not knocking it for Dutch people, but the internet needs a trustworthy global payments system that works for more than the 20 million in .nl. It also sucks that you have to provide strong identity to the payer or payee, sending or receiving payments should not require disclosing identity. That’s a bug, not a feature.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  Your need to buy illegal drugs and launder money anonymously and perpetrate fraudulent rug pulls and shill get-rich-quick pyramid schemes should not trump the needs of most other people who simply require a fast, reliable way to make legal secure business transactions without fees and middlemen. Anyway, the Netherlands and rest of the world already has a fully functioning illegal drug trading and money laundering network, without any need for your cryptocurrency bullshit: that's just a solution looking for problems, which it turns out were solved much better, a long time ago.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    I still hope for some solution to the problem that doesn't depend on imaginary internet money the value of which fluctuates wildly by the minute. We can keep using cash for anonymous transactions, but there are so many limitations to cash transactions that money transfers via internet don't have.

Dylan16807 3y ago

I assume you're implying some kind of cryptocurrency, but it's impractical to use those without middlemen and you forgot to say "without huge fees". Also instant 100% certainty is a bit too much in the face of fraud.

sneak 3y ago
> but it's impractical to use those without middlemen and you forgot to say "without huge fees". It seems your information is quite a bit out of date. These hasn’t been true for a long time.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  I didn't say that the huge fees are unavoidable, but they're the norm. And okay, tell me about how I get some cryptocurrency in a practical way without big middlemen.
  - sneak 3y ago
    The lightning network works great, as does Ethereum. The incumbents successfully lobbied to get easy on-ramps to this competing system regulated basically out of existence. It’s a tragic story.
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Yeah, I'm sure that's how SBF feels too, but now he's in jail where he belongs. But that's just good government regulation and law enforcement working the way they're supposed to, and I wouldn't exactly call his lobbying "successful". It's SUPPOSED to feel tragic for the people who tried to do it, and got caught.
    - camgunz 3y ago
      You can't really use lightning/Ethereum without using an exchange (a big middleman) to convert your fiat to BTC/ETH, because doing it without KYC etc. is money laundering. I don't really think this is incumbents lobbying, I think it's law enforcement saying, "the way we track organized crime is through money, so you can't do this". Crypto advocates know this, because a big selling point they always bring up is "spend money freely without regulation", which phrased another way is "buy/sell things your government doesn't want you to" which is the definition of organized crime--the only difference here is scale.

crosa 3y ago

In Brazil the central bank has such system for free, it's called PIX and is so good and simple to use that some fintechs lost a good chunk of their market share. You only need your National ID or an email. It became even an expression "send me a pix"