6 ms·

It seems to me by design or by indifference Java is now tired of JVM ecosystem languages at large who claim innovation by surface level changes while relying he

by geodel 3y ago

It seems to me by design or by indifference Java is now tired of JVM ecosystem languages at large who claim innovation by surface level changes while relying heavily on JVM bedrock. Now Java is moving fast and they are taking JVM compiler, runtime, class metadata etc along where Java, the language is headed.

pjmlp 3y ago
Not only Java, that is the fate of all guest languages, as they don't evolve alongside the platform, always require additional tooling and most language cultures than start making their own little islands of idiomatic libraries instead of directly using platform libraries. Since most platforms are leaky, one ends up needing to master two ecosystem in parallel, eventually it gets tiring and always cost extra in development. C++, Objective-C and Typescript get around this problem in UNIX and Web, as they are extensions of the platform languages, not something completely different.
- geodel 3y ago
  Yep agree with all you said. Nowadays new job every year people at work are scaring me with their enthusiasm to replace decades old solid Java applications which are performant and working fine with Kotlin and what not.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    I wouldn't advocate for replacing/re-writing old stuff - but you should try out Kotlin for backend work. It's amazing. Java programmers will have only a small learning curve before feeling productive, and can gradually get more comfortable with idomatic Kotlin as they progress through their journey. Kotlin, as a language, was very well through out, letting you use as much or as little of it as you are comfortable with.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It is still another syntax, with idioms moving away from JVM, their own little islands of Kontlin only libraries, and only works on InteliJ/Android Studio. I don't see any value in Kotlin outside Android shops.
      - jcadam 3y ago
        > I don't see any value in Kotlin outside Android shops. Developer experience is important to some people - not just devs, but those who seek to recruit and retain good ones. Of course, if you're looking to hire massive numbers of butts-in-seats (gov work, large enterprise shops, etc) I suppose Java is probably the ideal choice.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        While true it has it's own syntax, the syntax is better than Java and more ergonomic. With that said, you can write Java in Kotlin - and by that I mean Kotlin code that looks almost exactly like Java. Heck, you can have .java and .kt source within the same project all mixed together if you want. Kotlin libraries are interoperable with Java and vice versa. In some specific cases, a Kotlin library needs a little syntactic sugar to make it work with Java like a Java developer would expect, but it's easy to do. Going the other direction though - Java library used in Kotlin, zero issues, it just works. Some Java developers don't even realize they're already using Kotlin - take a look at OKHttp and friends... Lastly, there's Kotlin support is all major IDE's, including IntelliJ of course, but also Eclipse and likely whatever editor/ide you prefer. Kotlin is basically just a bunch of libs. I would argue Kotlin is better outside of Android than in Android. For backend work, particularly when coupled with Spring/Boot, it's freaking amazing. The Spring team has put in an impressive amount of work to make Kotlin a first-class language within the ecosystem, and it really shows.
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Try to call Kotlin co-routines from Java. Telling me there is Kotlin support in Eclipse only tells me you never actually tried it, specially after JetBrains ramped down the team that was doing the now stale plugin.
    - jcadam 3y ago
      Kotlin is the closest thing to a "better Java" that I've found. I've used it with Spring Boot and the interoperability with Java is fantastic. A Java dev would have no problem picking it up quickly (as opposed to Clojure and even Scala). I say this as a Clojure fan, there are many instances where I'd probably choose Kotlin nowadays. You can also mix JVM languages within the same application; I've found it rather useful to sprinkle some Clojure into a Java/Spring application for certain tasks. Maven and Gradle both have tooling to handle it :)
      - Alupis 3y ago
        If you're into FP stuff, using Arrow within Kotlin takes you to that next level. It even works with Spring/Boot.
      - ahoka 3y ago
        Even C# seems like something stuck in the 1990s compared to Kotlin. (I know it’s not a high bar).
        pjmlp 3y ago
        Not kept up with the times in regards to C# 12 features?
        Alupis 3y ago
        C#'s problem is it's quickly becoming C++ in that it doesn't just have the kitchen sink, it has three kitchen sinks... Unlike C++ though, one day the powers that be will just remove features as part of yet-another framework rewrite and you'll just have to deal with it. The other issue is just how tightly coupled C# as a language is to the .NET framework/platform. Some of the things people like C# for are actually framework things and they don't realize it because that separation isn't as clear as with Java and say, JavaEE or Spring or $X. If you talk to a C# developer - of course they're using .NET and of course they're using Entity Framework - to them, there's no other way. It's inconceivable that any other library or framework might do it better than Microsoft's official offering... and then you'll find the official offering to be lacking in fundamental ways. Talk with a Java developer and you'll find there's a lot more diversity of frameworks and libraries being used - so there's a lot more differing opinions on priorities and a lot more good ideas being tried out or implemented everywhere. The communities are vastly different in that regard.
    - vips7L 3y ago
      For me personally Kotlin does not bring that much to the table over a modern version of Java. Sure if you're stuck in Java 8 it can be a win, but compared to Java 21 it just doesn't bring enough to warrant the switch for me.
      - skwirl 3y ago
        I’ve seen this sentiment a lot and I don’t understand it. I actually feel like very little has been added between Java 8 and Java 21. Virtual threads is probably the biggest thing, and it looks very promising, but the language itself is still a chore to use, and Kotlin does a good job at cleaning a lot of that up. I think Kotlin is at risk, though, of having the JVM force them to support two competing models to accomplish the same thing - coroutines and virtual threads is a good example (although Java still doesn’t have language level structured concurrency). This could really make things messy.
        vips7L 3y ago
        > I’ve seen this sentiment a lot and I don’t understand it. I just don't think any feature of the language of Kotlin is that much better than Java's implementation. I'm also a big supporter of brevity != clarity when it comes to code. What language feature in Kotlin do you think is that much better?
        Alupis 3y ago
        I was you not that long ago. I've had the same conversation with a lot of other Java developers too - they/we always say the same things. It's weird being on the other side of the fence now - hearing the same things I used to say. Kotlin was a gateway drug out of not just Java, but OO/Solid and into FP for me (FP being another thing I used to not "get"). The beauty of Kotlin is you don't have to ever write FP code if you don't want to - but you will want to before too long. I would recommend trying it out for yourself. It's Spring integration is amazing, and you'll have a great time. Write even a little Kotlin and you'll have an "ah ha!" moment and everything will forever be different. It's one of those things where you need to experience it for yourself before you actually understand how great it is. There is no argument you will hear that will convince you, sadly. I was the same once...
    - peterashford 3y ago
      I did a year of Kotlin in a recent job. I liked it, but not enough to prefer it over Java - especially with the recent updates to Java. YMMV
- never_inline 3y ago
  That's an interesting hypothesis. Is that applicable to platforms other than programming languages?
- imtringued 3y ago
  That would only be a bad thing if the Java ecosystem was good to begin with. From my perspective it is terrible enough that the language specific wrapper library has 10x to 100x the usability of the Java option if you use it directly from Java. For example, GORM for Groovy is significantly better than Hibernate even though it is built on top of Hibernate. It is so good that I chose to use groovy once, not because it made sense but simply because Hibernate is so terrible, the cost of a different language was outweighed by it. I don't give a damn about most JVM features. They don't change the crap ecosystem at all. I personally despise the JVM for being incredibly memory inefficient as well. None of this is going to change.
Tainnor 3y ago
And many developers are tired of Java making minuscule improvements to developer ergonomics while pretending to be progressing, when even now, it doesn't have features that other languages have had for 30 years.
- kaba0 3y ago
  Based on pure statists about the number of important, business critical java-applications that run most of the internet, it seems like it just straight doesn’t matter in any significant way.
  - Tainnor 3y ago
    Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it does matter to me. All the power to people who enjoy working in Java, but that doesn't have to make me like it.
vips7L 3y ago
The JVM and Java the language have always been intertwined. The same people that develop the language, develop the VM. Lots of optimizations in the VM know specifically about Java the language idioms and implementation details. Check out this function which helps determine if instance fields are trusted: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/edd454b502b9bacde55492820e52655bbac63b89/src/hotspot/share/ci/ciField.cpp#L219 https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/edd454b502b9bacde5549282...

by geodel 3y ago

pjmlp 3y ago

Not only Java, that is the fate of all guest languages, as they don't evolve alongside the platform, always require additional tooling and most language cultures than start making their own little islands of idiomatic libraries instead of directly using platform libraries. Since most platforms are leaky, one ends up needing to master two ecosystem in parallel, eventually it gets tiring and always cost extra in development. C++, Objective-C and Typescript get around this problem in UNIX and Web, as they are extensions of the platform languages, not something completely different.

geodel 3y ago
Yep agree with all you said. Nowadays new job every year people at work are scaring me with their enthusiasm to replace decades old solid Java applications which are performant and working fine with Kotlin and what not.
- Alupis 3y ago
  I wouldn't advocate for replacing/re-writing old stuff - but you should try out Kotlin for backend work. It's amazing. Java programmers will have only a small learning curve before feeling productive, and can gradually get more comfortable with idomatic Kotlin as they progress through their journey. Kotlin, as a language, was very well through out, letting you use as much or as little of it as you are comfortable with.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    It is still another syntax, with idioms moving away from JVM, their own little islands of Kontlin only libraries, and only works on InteliJ/Android Studio. I don't see any value in Kotlin outside Android shops.
    - jcadam 3y ago
      > I don't see any value in Kotlin outside Android shops. Developer experience is important to some people - not just devs, but those who seek to recruit and retain good ones. Of course, if you're looking to hire massive numbers of butts-in-seats (gov work, large enterprise shops, etc) I suppose Java is probably the ideal choice.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      While true it has it's own syntax, the syntax is better than Java and more ergonomic. With that said, you can write Java in Kotlin - and by that I mean Kotlin code that looks almost exactly like Java. Heck, you can have .java and .kt source within the same project all mixed together if you want. Kotlin libraries are interoperable with Java and vice versa. In some specific cases, a Kotlin library needs a little syntactic sugar to make it work with Java like a Java developer would expect, but it's easy to do. Going the other direction though - Java library used in Kotlin, zero issues, it just works. Some Java developers don't even realize they're already using Kotlin - take a look at OKHttp and friends... Lastly, there's Kotlin support is all major IDE's, including IntelliJ of course, but also Eclipse and likely whatever editor/ide you prefer. Kotlin is basically just a bunch of libs. I would argue Kotlin is better outside of Android than in Android. For backend work, particularly when coupled with Spring/Boot, it's freaking amazing. The Spring team has put in an impressive amount of work to make Kotlin a first-class language within the ecosystem, and it really shows.
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Try to call Kotlin co-routines from Java. Telling me there is Kotlin support in Eclipse only tells me you never actually tried it, specially after JetBrains ramped down the team that was doing the now stale plugin.
  - jcadam 3y ago
    Kotlin is the closest thing to a "better Java" that I've found. I've used it with Spring Boot and the interoperability with Java is fantastic. A Java dev would have no problem picking it up quickly (as opposed to Clojure and even Scala). I say this as a Clojure fan, there are many instances where I'd probably choose Kotlin nowadays. You can also mix JVM languages within the same application; I've found it rather useful to sprinkle some Clojure into a Java/Spring application for certain tasks. Maven and Gradle both have tooling to handle it :)
    - Alupis 3y ago
      If you're into FP stuff, using Arrow within Kotlin takes you to that next level. It even works with Spring/Boot.
    - ahoka 3y ago
      Even C# seems like something stuck in the 1990s compared to Kotlin. (I know it’s not a high bar).
      - pjmlp 3y ago
        Not kept up with the times in regards to C# 12 features?
        Alupis 3y ago
        C#'s problem is it's quickly becoming C++ in that it doesn't just have the kitchen sink, it has three kitchen sinks... Unlike C++ though, one day the powers that be will just remove features as part of yet-another framework rewrite and you'll just have to deal with it. The other issue is just how tightly coupled C# as a language is to the .NET framework/platform. Some of the things people like C# for are actually framework things and they don't realize it because that separation isn't as clear as with Java and say, JavaEE or Spring or $X. If you talk to a C# developer - of course they're using .NET and of course they're using Entity Framework - to them, there's no other way. It's inconceivable that any other library or framework might do it better than Microsoft's official offering... and then you'll find the official offering to be lacking in fundamental ways. Talk with a Java developer and you'll find there's a lot more diversity of frameworks and libraries being used - so there's a lot more differing opinions on priorities and a lot more good ideas being tried out or implemented everywhere. The communities are vastly different in that regard.
  - vips7L 3y ago
    For me personally Kotlin does not bring that much to the table over a modern version of Java. Sure if you're stuck in Java 8 it can be a win, but compared to Java 21 it just doesn't bring enough to warrant the switch for me.
    - skwirl 3y ago
      I’ve seen this sentiment a lot and I don’t understand it. I actually feel like very little has been added between Java 8 and Java 21. Virtual threads is probably the biggest thing, and it looks very promising, but the language itself is still a chore to use, and Kotlin does a good job at cleaning a lot of that up. I think Kotlin is at risk, though, of having the JVM force them to support two competing models to accomplish the same thing - coroutines and virtual threads is a good example (although Java still doesn’t have language level structured concurrency). This could really make things messy.
      - vips7L 3y ago
        > I’ve seen this sentiment a lot and I don’t understand it. I just don't think any feature of the language of Kotlin is that much better than Java's implementation. I'm also a big supporter of brevity != clarity when it comes to code. What language feature in Kotlin do you think is that much better?
        Alupis 3y ago
        I was you not that long ago. I've had the same conversation with a lot of other Java developers too - they/we always say the same things. It's weird being on the other side of the fence now - hearing the same things I used to say. Kotlin was a gateway drug out of not just Java, but OO/Solid and into FP for me (FP being another thing I used to not "get"). The beauty of Kotlin is you don't have to ever write FP code if you don't want to - but you will want to before too long. I would recommend trying it out for yourself. It's Spring integration is amazing, and you'll have a great time. Write even a little Kotlin and you'll have an "ah ha!" moment and everything will forever be different. It's one of those things where you need to experience it for yourself before you actually understand how great it is. There is no argument you will hear that will convince you, sadly. I was the same once...
  - peterashford 3y ago
    I did a year of Kotlin in a recent job. I liked it, but not enough to prefer it over Java - especially with the recent updates to Java. YMMV
never_inline 3y ago
That's an interesting hypothesis. Is that applicable to platforms other than programming languages?
imtringued 3y ago
That would only be a bad thing if the Java ecosystem was good to begin with. From my perspective it is terrible enough that the language specific wrapper library has 10x to 100x the usability of the Java option if you use it directly from Java. For example, GORM for Groovy is significantly better than Hibernate even though it is built on top of Hibernate. It is so good that I chose to use groovy once, not because it made sense but simply because Hibernate is so terrible, the cost of a different language was outweighed by it. I don't give a damn about most JVM features. They don't change the crap ecosystem at all. I personally despise the JVM for being incredibly memory inefficient as well. None of this is going to change.

Tainnor 3y ago

And many developers are tired of Java making minuscule improvements to developer ergonomics while pretending to be progressing, when even now, it doesn't have features that other languages have had for 30 years.

kaba0 3y ago
Based on pure statists about the number of important, business critical java-applications that run most of the internet, it seems like it just straight doesn’t matter in any significant way.
- Tainnor 3y ago
  Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it does matter to me. All the power to people who enjoy working in Java, but that doesn't have to make me like it.

vips7L 3y ago

The JVM and Java the language have always been intertwined. The same people that develop the language, develop the VM. Lots of optimizations in the VM know specifically about Java the language idioms and implementation details. Check out this function which helps determine if instance fields are trusted: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/edd454b502b9bacde55492820e52655bbac63b89/src/hotspot/share/ci/ciField.cpp#L219 https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/edd454b502b9bacde5549282...