4 ms·

Something you have to understand about being remote - at any time, this was true decades ago - is that you are not there when people talk and you can't correct

Something you have to understand about being remote - at any time, this was true decades ago - is that you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself. People with commutes and requirements to be under the eyes of management resent those who don't have that problem and can all agree on that. Remote gigs will always be more tenuous than prison-jobs.

lowercased 3y ago
> is that you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself You also can't correct things when you're in an office when meetings are had that exclude you. So even with that sweet commute you can still be reference while "in the office", just not in the room where Big Decisions are made.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I mean you can sit next to your coworkers and ask to join meetings they're in. Everythings relative I guess
neogodless 3y ago
Can you clarify your premise here? When I worked in a building, I would go to meetings, and there I would see co-workers and people would talk to each other in meetings. When I work remotely, I join virtual meetings, and I see co-workers and people talk to each other. In both cases, people can use chat to say things without me seeing. If I am physically in a building, but people are not in the same room as me, they can talk to each other without me hearing. The only premise that could be true is that within one organization, people that cannot be remote may resent people that can.
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago
  There is a certain activation energy required for discussions to take place, which is quite high in a remote setting. This isn't a problem by itself, however remote companies need to have a lot more processes around information transfer and team building, which is something companies don't need to actively think about for the most part if they build on-site teams.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  I interpreted the meaning to be something along the lines of “remote workers can feel like they have less control of big decisions if an organization also has office workers”. In my experience, it’s an illusion (or delusion).
- eddieroger 3y ago
  They're talking about the hallway chats that happen after the meeting, when people move from the conference room back to their cubes. Gotta talk about something as you walk, and if that happens to be in the form of a misrepresentation of your work, you not only can't do anything about it, but you'll never know. In my experience, that's more a reflection on a poor org than the situation. Before the pandemic when I wanted to have a hallway debrief with my coworkers in the office, I pinged them as such and we talked via Skype (then, it was years ago) about the meeting. Sure they'd started without me, but caught me up. It was fine.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    This, but it doesn't even have to be as nefarious as misrepresenting your work. Someone senior who didn't quite understand some point but didn't want to ask about it in the meeting* will ask a version of it in the hallway just outside the door. They'll appreciate and increase trust in the person who gave them the answer. There's not even anything nefarious about that; it's just normal human behavior. * Positively: because they didn't want to derail the meeting and slow everyone down, or negatively: because they didn't want to admit to not being omniscient. Either way, it happens.
  - luminouslow 3y ago
    >not only can't do anything about it, but you'll never know. And what would you do if you are there in person? Challenge them to a duel? This whole scenario sounds very paranoid to me. In my experience if you treat people decently and perform OK most co-workers won't talk negatively about you behind your back. Or maybe I just never noticed... it did have 0 impact on me though if it happened.
sam0x17 3y ago
Haven't been in a non-fully-remote org in over 5 years so really can't relate
afavour 3y ago
> you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself Eh. Since the advent of chat systems like Slack I think this happens anyway, remote or not.
nerdjon 3y ago
There is something to be said about being "known" and visible in the office vs running invisibly in the background. I know my job I feel like is kinda invisible. There are a few key people I talk too on a regular basis but outside of those small handful of people most of the company don't know I exist except for the rare times I show up the office. I will also say that as much as I prefer WFH, there is still something lost that just can't be replicated at home without a constant video connection (which... NO). That is the random conversations that can happen that may lead to just a friendship or actually lead to a change at work. I have been part of a lot of projects that would have never happened if it wasn't for a conversation over lunch, in the elevator, or whatever. People have pain points or ideas that are never formally made for one reason or another. Personally what I would really like is a mix. WFH 4 days a week and come in 1 day for a meeting, social, etc day. I barely knew my coworkers until we started actually going in every once in a while and doing things outside of work as well.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  > There is something to be said about being "known" and visible in the office vs running invisibly in the background. There shouldn't be, but I agree that in reality there is something to simply being visibly toiling. I learned on HN a month ago, this is called the "Costanza Disposition"[1] based on a Seinfeld episode. You walk the halls in the office with a very serious, determined look on your face, always with laptop in hand. Always drifting past where the Directors and VPs sat. Always striking up conversations with people in leadership. Always visibly demonstrating vague "bustle" and "activity." A naive manager would observe this behavior and think to himself "Ahh, yes, the glorious buzz of Business™ Being Done! My empire is so active!" 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8PzhNuh7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8PzhNuh7w
fzeroracer 3y ago
When I worked at my prior job there always office politics at play. People would send slack messages, emails, whatever and gossip even if you were sitting right next to them. Even if you corrected them or defended yourself, then you become stuckup or snobby etc. If you're in an environment where people are treating you like that, remote or not, it's not due to how you work. You just have shitty coworkers or managers.
mejutoco 3y ago
Not to argue either way, but this can happen in meetings behind closed doors while in the office. Anyone can say anything while not present even if in the office. I think it is more productive to do a good job. If someone says false things and decision makers takes them at face value there is some other problems at an organization.
scruple 3y ago
I had a wonderful remote working gig for about 8 years. My first year was in-office, then I negotiated part-time remote for 1.5 years and full-time remote for the remainder of my time there. This is where I worked for most of the '10s. > you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself And you'll never suspect it from the people who are doing it the most / worst. As a mid level, I worked under a lead who was 100% in-office and who was, on a daily basis, stealing credit for all of my work with engineering management while at the same time pushing for me to get a promotion! His career / role catapulted into the high-rises, he threatened to leave unless X, Y, and Z demands were made, they capitulated because they believed he was so crucial, I had no idea any of this was going on until years after the fact, and I made Senior. Whoopity fucking doo. I was later told that this person was eventually fired, because he found his personal Peter Principle level and had run out of subordinates to abuse, but he's still out there in industry fucking things up for other people, I'm sure.
codingdave 3y ago
> People with commutes and requirements to be under the eyes of management resent those who don't have that problem and can all agree on that. If you have found that to be true, you may have had a streak of pettiness in your work culture. I've found that the healthy organizations I've been a part of don't resent each other - if they have a concern they raise it, discuss it, resolve it, and leave it be.
ttymck 3y ago
If I need to eavesdrop on off-the-cuff conversations in order to justify my job, I won't last long at that employer in any case.

lowercased 3y ago

> is that you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself You also can't correct things when you're in an office when meetings are had that exclude you. So even with that sweet commute you can still be reference while "in the office", just not in the room where Big Decisions are made.

HDThoreaun 3y ago
I mean you can sit next to your coworkers and ask to join meetings they're in. Everythings relative I guess

neogodless 3y ago

Can you clarify your premise here? When I worked in a building, I would go to meetings, and there I would see co-workers and people would talk to each other in meetings. When I work remotely, I join virtual meetings, and I see co-workers and people talk to each other. In both cases, people can use chat to say things without me seeing. If I am physically in a building, but people are not in the same room as me, they can talk to each other without me hearing. The only premise that could be true is that within one organization, people that cannot be remote may resent people that can.

supriyo-biswas 3y ago
There is a certain activation energy required for discussions to take place, which is quite high in a remote setting. This isn't a problem by itself, however remote companies need to have a lot more processes around information transfer and team building, which is something companies don't need to actively think about for the most part if they build on-site teams.
mathgeek 3y ago
I interpreted the meaning to be something along the lines of “remote workers can feel like they have less control of big decisions if an organization also has office workers”. In my experience, it’s an illusion (or delusion).
eddieroger 3y ago
They're talking about the hallway chats that happen after the meeting, when people move from the conference room back to their cubes. Gotta talk about something as you walk, and if that happens to be in the form of a misrepresentation of your work, you not only can't do anything about it, but you'll never know. In my experience, that's more a reflection on a poor org than the situation. Before the pandemic when I wanted to have a hallway debrief with my coworkers in the office, I pinged them as such and we talked via Skype (then, it was years ago) about the meeting. Sure they'd started without me, but caught me up. It was fine.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  This, but it doesn't even have to be as nefarious as misrepresenting your work. Someone senior who didn't quite understand some point but didn't want to ask about it in the meeting* will ask a version of it in the hallway just outside the door. They'll appreciate and increase trust in the person who gave them the answer. There's not even anything nefarious about that; it's just normal human behavior. * Positively: because they didn't want to derail the meeting and slow everyone down, or negatively: because they didn't want to admit to not being omniscient. Either way, it happens.
- luminouslow 3y ago
  >not only can't do anything about it, but you'll never know. And what would you do if you are there in person? Challenge them to a duel? This whole scenario sounds very paranoid to me. In my experience if you treat people decently and perform OK most co-workers won't talk negatively about you behind your back. Or maybe I just never noticed... it did have 0 impact on me though if it happened.

sam0x17 3y ago

Haven't been in a non-fully-remote org in over 5 years so really can't relate

afavour 3y ago

> you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself Eh. Since the advent of chat systems like Slack I think this happens anyway, remote or not.

nerdjon 3y ago

There is something to be said about being "known" and visible in the office vs running invisibly in the background. I know my job I feel like is kinda invisible. There are a few key people I talk too on a regular basis but outside of those small handful of people most of the company don't know I exist except for the rare times I show up the office. I will also say that as much as I prefer WFH, there is still something lost that just can't be replicated at home without a constant video connection (which... NO). That is the random conversations that can happen that may lead to just a friendship or actually lead to a change at work. I have been part of a lot of projects that would have never happened if it wasn't for a conversation over lunch, in the elevator, or whatever. People have pain points or ideas that are never formally made for one reason or another. Personally what I would really like is a mix. WFH 4 days a week and come in 1 day for a meeting, social, etc day. I barely knew my coworkers until we started actually going in every once in a while and doing things outside of work as well.

ryandrake 3y ago
> There is something to be said about being "known" and visible in the office vs running invisibly in the background. There shouldn't be, but I agree that in reality there is something to simply being visibly toiling. I learned on HN a month ago, this is called the "Costanza Disposition"[1] based on a Seinfeld episode. You walk the halls in the office with a very serious, determined look on your face, always with laptop in hand. Always drifting past where the Directors and VPs sat. Always striking up conversations with people in leadership. Always visibly demonstrating vague "bustle" and "activity." A naive manager would observe this behavior and think to himself "Ahh, yes, the glorious buzz of Business™ Being Done! My empire is so active!" 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8PzhNuh7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC8PzhNuh7w

fzeroracer 3y ago

When I worked at my prior job there always office politics at play. People would send slack messages, emails, whatever and gossip even if you were sitting right next to them. Even if you corrected them or defended yourself, then you become stuckup or snobby etc. If you're in an environment where people are treating you like that, remote or not, it's not due to how you work. You just have shitty coworkers or managers.

mejutoco 3y ago

Not to argue either way, but this can happen in meetings behind closed doors while in the office. Anyone can say anything while not present even if in the office. I think it is more productive to do a good job. If someone says false things and decision makers takes them at face value there is some other problems at an organization.

scruple 3y ago

I had a wonderful remote working gig for about 8 years. My first year was in-office, then I negotiated part-time remote for 1.5 years and full-time remote for the remainder of my time there. This is where I worked for most of the '10s. > you are not there when people talk and you can't correct them or defend yourself And you'll never suspect it from the people who are doing it the most / worst. As a mid level, I worked under a lead who was 100% in-office and who was, on a daily basis, stealing credit for all of my work with engineering management while at the same time pushing for me to get a promotion! His career / role catapulted into the high-rises, he threatened to leave unless X, Y, and Z demands were made, they capitulated because they believed he was so crucial, I had no idea any of this was going on until years after the fact, and I made Senior. Whoopity fucking doo. I was later told that this person was eventually fired, because he found his personal Peter Principle level and had run out of subordinates to abuse, but he's still out there in industry fucking things up for other people, I'm sure.

codingdave 3y ago

> People with commutes and requirements to be under the eyes of management resent those who don't have that problem and can all agree on that. If you have found that to be true, you may have had a streak of pettiness in your work culture. I've found that the healthy organizations I've been a part of don't resent each other - if they have a concern they raise it, discuss it, resolve it, and leave it be.

ttymck 3y ago

If I need to eavesdrop on off-the-cuff conversations in order to justify my job, I won't last long at that employer in any case.