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> It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. But most businesses do. The main issue is there: why should a business be forced b

> It doesn't need electricity, a network of cables, satellites and routers. But most businesses do. The main issue is there: why should a business be forced by law to accept cash if they absolutely need electricty and cables to work as a business ? It's one step below forcing them to accept hand written checks. Those are also extremely resilient, you just need a pen and paper. But god no I wouldn't want to deal with them at a car rental desk. Sure cash should be accepted in shops selling essential goods. But other shops should have the choice.

sambazi 3y ago
cashless has a lot of negative externalities hence a business should have a _very good_ reason to not accept the legal tender.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  What if I told you that outside of the US we're seeing tax offices progressively refusing cash payments and/or putting a penalty with a maximum accepted amount for people who still try to bring cash ? Forcing all businesses to follow a model that is already getting phased out doesn't make sense.
  - sambazi 3y ago
    yes it does make sense. tax office has very little similarity with a retail store, idk what you are advocating here.
    - Nasrudith 3y ago
      But they share the important detail of "essential to access". Now combine that with Operation Choke Point style abuses of power. Hello there arbitrary arrest and detention under the pretense of failure to pay taxes to the same government which prevented you from paying in the first place!
TerrifiedMouse 3y ago
I agree with what you said but I still think cash should be accepted as baseline. Anyone can use cash. That said, I can also understand businesses wanting to do away with it - no need to dealt with it; secure it, count it, deposit it, … etc.
- sambazi 3y ago
  thou, the cash handling overhead/cost does not scale linear with revenue like cc fees do
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  I think looking at cash as baseline made sense a while ago, but in this day and age, we see self employed people running a side business with a card reader and an iPad, and sell paintings on the beach for 3 hours during the weekend. Asking these people to handle cash instead feels like an undue burden on something that is a very selective side gig. I've seen this a lot in mildly remote locations, and I'd assume they wouldn't be doing it if it was more of a burden, like having to deal with the cash flow.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
> But most businesses do. Ummm, for quite small values of "most" :) I have a handle on this because I set a resilience assignment to a cohort of about 20 MBAs at a business school. Specifically I asked for a representative range of businesses; - fast food - gymnasiums and sports - nail bars and hairdressers - auto-repair and mechanic/garages - child and day-care .... you get the picture, _loads_ of variety. They did 1 hour, 12 hour, 24 hour and one week case models. As tech people, we are probably biased to think too heavily about digital and electronic systems. Many businesses can function in "survival mode" during a tech outage, including electricity in some cases. As I recall, after "telephone", it was payment systems that were the real killer. Interestingly many access control systems fail-safe simply locking everyone out of the buildings!
- mjevans 3y ago
  Yes, whomever's on call for fixing any related system should have the physical keys to open the locks. Automatically logging that and post incident reports / etc as necessary.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Those businesses need a working cashier that keeps untampered records. Not because they're inherently electronized, but because they want the convenience of it. It just makes a lot of things easier. The same way they do digital bookkeeping, not because they can't do it on paper but because it's just a pure hassle that distracts from the business. "survival mode" is just that, you can accept cash during a hurricane, and refuse it for the rest of the year when you operate nromally.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
blackshaw 3y ago
Let's think about who wouldn't be fine in a cashless economy: * Elderly people who struggle with technology. * People fleeing coercive situations like domestic abuse where their abuser controls their finances. * People with mental disabilities, for whom cash might be the only thing they know how to use. * Homeless people, who might literally rely on cash to survive. * Poorer people who prefer cash because it helps them budget and limit their spending. * People so poor or otherwise disadvantaged that they don't even have a bank account. That last group is much bigger than you think: by one estimate, 6% of American adults don't have a bank account and another 13% are "underbanked".[0] That's tens of millions of people in the US alone who don't have access to the basic financial services that you and I take for granted. I have no idea how they do it. I'm not sure how it's even possible to navigate modern life without a bank account, but then I'm an educated, affluent professional who has no idea what it's like to be poor. Just because I don't need cash doesn't mean that no-one else does. So basically, I think that asking "why should a business be forced by law to accept cash?" is like asking "why should a business be forced by law to provide wheelchair ramps and elevators?" If you don't think the answer is obvious, then you need to check your privilege. [0] Source: https://usafacts.org/articles/who-is-the-least-likely-to-have-a-bank-account-in-the-us/ https://usafacts.org/articles/who-is-the-least-likely-to-hav...
- bsenftner 3y ago
  Warms my black heart to read your astute assessment.
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  > I have no idea how they do it. Check cashing stores. And you pay a very steep fee for not having a bank account.
- macintux 3y ago
  Thank you; I regret that I have but one upvote to offer.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  From my comment > Sure cash should be accepted in shops selling essential goods. But other shops should have the choice. That basically covers you whole list, except if your argument is that gaming PC parts shop should absolutely accomodate cash in case homeless people need an RTX3060 over the weekend. Also fundamdentally a bank account should be a legal right (it is in many countries, if it's not in yours it's a more critical debate than cash), and with it should come a debit card. Sure some people won't be able to use it for a reason or another, but they can get help. The same way not everyone benefits from cash.

sambazi 3y ago

cashless has a lot of negative externalities hence a business should have a _very good_ reason to not accept the legal tender.

makeitdouble 3y ago
What if I told you that outside of the US we're seeing tax offices progressively refusing cash payments and/or putting a penalty with a maximum accepted amount for people who still try to bring cash ? Forcing all businesses to follow a model that is already getting phased out doesn't make sense.
- sambazi 3y ago
  yes it does make sense. tax office has very little similarity with a retail store, idk what you are advocating here.
  - Nasrudith 3y ago
    But they share the important detail of "essential to access". Now combine that with Operation Choke Point style abuses of power. Hello there arbitrary arrest and detention under the pretense of failure to pay taxes to the same government which prevented you from paying in the first place!

TerrifiedMouse 3y ago

I agree with what you said but I still think cash should be accepted as baseline. Anyone can use cash. That said, I can also understand businesses wanting to do away with it - no need to dealt with it; secure it, count it, deposit it, … etc.

sambazi 3y ago
thou, the cash handling overhead/cost does not scale linear with revenue like cc fees do
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
makeitdouble 3y ago
I think looking at cash as baseline made sense a while ago, but in this day and age, we see self employed people running a side business with a card reader and an iPad, and sell paintings on the beach for 3 hours during the weekend. Asking these people to handle cash instead feels like an undue burden on something that is a very selective side gig. I've seen this a lot in mildly remote locations, and I'd assume they wouldn't be doing it if it was more of a burden, like having to deal with the cash flow.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

> But most businesses do. Ummm, for quite small values of "most" :) I have a handle on this because I set a resilience assignment to a cohort of about 20 MBAs at a business school. Specifically I asked for a representative range of businesses; - fast food - gymnasiums and sports - nail bars and hairdressers - auto-repair and mechanic/garages - child and day-care .... you get the picture, _loads_ of variety. They did 1 hour, 12 hour, 24 hour and one week case models. As tech people, we are probably biased to think too heavily about digital and electronic systems. Many businesses can function in "survival mode" during a tech outage, including electricity in some cases. As I recall, after "telephone", it was payment systems that were the real killer. Interestingly many access control systems fail-safe simply locking everyone out of the buildings!

mjevans 3y ago
Yes, whomever's on call for fixing any related system should have the physical keys to open the locks. Automatically logging that and post incident reports / etc as necessary.
makeitdouble 3y ago
Those businesses need a working cashier that keeps untampered records. Not because they're inherently electronized, but because they want the convenience of it. It just makes a lot of things easier. The same way they do digital bookkeeping, not because they can't do it on paper but because it's just a pure hassle that distracts from the business. "survival mode" is just that, you can accept cash during a hurricane, and refuse it for the rest of the year when you operate nromally.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

blackshaw 3y ago

Let's think about who wouldn't be fine in a cashless economy: * Elderly people who struggle with technology. * People fleeing coercive situations like domestic abuse where their abuser controls their finances. * People with mental disabilities, for whom cash might be the only thing they know how to use. * Homeless people, who might literally rely on cash to survive. * Poorer people who prefer cash because it helps them budget and limit their spending. * People so poor or otherwise disadvantaged that they don't even have a bank account. That last group is much bigger than you think: by one estimate, 6% of American adults don't have a bank account and another 13% are "underbanked".[0] That's tens of millions of people in the US alone who don't have access to the basic financial services that you and I take for granted. I have no idea how they do it. I'm not sure how it's even possible to navigate modern life without a bank account, but then I'm an educated, affluent professional who has no idea what it's like to be poor. Just because I don't need cash doesn't mean that no-one else does. So basically, I think that asking "why should a business be forced by law to accept cash?" is like asking "why should a business be forced by law to provide wheelchair ramps and elevators?" If you don't think the answer is obvious, then you need to check your privilege. [0] Source: https://usafacts.org/articles/who-is-the-least-likely-to-have-a-bank-account-in-the-us/ https://usafacts.org/articles/who-is-the-least-likely-to-hav...

bsenftner 3y ago
Warms my black heart to read your astute assessment.
Tangurena2 3y ago
> I have no idea how they do it. Check cashing stores. And you pay a very steep fee for not having a bank account.
macintux 3y ago
Thank you; I regret that I have but one upvote to offer.
makeitdouble 3y ago
From my comment > Sure cash should be accepted in shops selling essential goods. But other shops should have the choice. That basically covers you whole list, except if your argument is that gaming PC parts shop should absolutely accomodate cash in case homeless people need an RTX3060 over the weekend. Also fundamdentally a bank account should be a legal right (it is in many countries, if it's not in yours it's a more critical debate than cash), and with it should come a debit card. Sure some people won't be able to use it for a reason or another, but they can get help. The same way not everyone benefits from cash.