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Review: Framework Laptop finally gets an AMD Ryzen config–and it’s pretty good

171 points by saltysalt 3y ago

repelsteeltje 3y ago
I like the idea of replaceable and upgradable parts. But I would be totally convinced this platform is also a viable ecosystem if parts were also sourced by suppliers competing with Framework and everyone is profitable/sustainable. Wouldn't that be great?!
- moelf 3y ago
  nothing is stopping others from selling "Framework-compatible parts", the CAD for all bays, expansion bays, etc. are open source https://github.com/FrameworkComputer https://github.com/FrameworkComputer
  - pipo234 3y ago
    Permission is one. (A pretty important one, at that.) A second is funding, the prospect of becoming profitable. This hurdle, Framework seems to have taken (for now), but it also seems to be stopping competitors (for now). Would be great if something grew from hobbyist / enthusiasts.
    - Moto7451 3y ago
      Can you elaborate on the permission comment? The designs in their github allow commercial use with attribution. They even link to a Google form for submitting your product to their marketplace. Is there a submarine restriction somewhere?
      - pipo234 3y ago
        Ehrm. Yes, there is permission. I did not say it imply that there is a restriction there, or did I?! Just meant that so far, the permission has not led to a thriving ecosystem. So beyond permission there must be factors. Like access to money. Not at all frameworks fault, of course. I was trying to argue from perspective of potential competitor what would be holding them back.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        > Ehrm. Yes, there is permission. I did not say it imply that there is a restriction there, or did I?! Yes, you definitely did. You replied "Permission is one." to "Nothing is stopping".
        repelsteeltje 3y ago
        I think he meant it like "okay, yes, permission is one... but also consider..." That's how I read it first time.
        tlhunter 3y ago
        Once enough people buy frameworks you'll be able to find cheap Chinese components on Amazon.
    - delfinom 3y ago
      >Would be great if something grew from hobbyist / enthusiasts. Making PCBs to support modern x86 and even high-end ARM CPUs with DDR5 RAM and also PCI-express is beyond the skillset of a vast majority of hobbyist and enthusiasts. It gets so so far up the creek of high frequency signal engineering under electrical engineering. It's not impossible, just very time consuming and costly (between equipment required for testing and PCB manufacturing). But yea all the other stuff in a framework could get hobbyists and enthusiasts making their own elements like the expansion cards and keyboard significantly more easily if there was a need for it.
      - jdsully 3y ago
        I did a DDR3 layout, sure there's a lot to think about if you want it to work in extreme temperatures or with lots of EMI. But for hobbyist use its essentially get the right trace width for the PCB material using an online impedance calculator, and then length match and match the count of vias for all your traces of the same bus and don't exceed the length restrictions. Don't forget to have a good ground plane. This will work 99% of the time. Its time consuming and annoying but not rocket science.
    - wierd-eye-loser 3y ago
      [dead]
- _lvbh 3y ago
  Framework doesn’t ship to China yet and when I got mine shipped via a third party, the customs stole some parts claiming that the laptop lacked certification. Once it’s open to the Chinese market, tons of cheap and low quality parts will flood the market
opine-at-random 3y ago
I own a framework, and 3/4 of the ports are failing. I shilled this machine hard when I got it, but now I have dubious connections to my ext-monitor and my microphone. Sometimes when I'm moving files to-from my SSD I have intermittent failures. Also the hinge that it comes with is fucking atrocious. I really wanted to love this $1500 product, but frankly; I'm just going to resuscitate my thinkpad, and get my work to provide a desktop and use x11 forwarding on it.
- jackmott42 3y ago
  I own a framework, one of the early ones from launch. All of the ports are working. My SSD has no problems, and the hinge has been fine for us, but they upgraded it after launch so newer ones should be better.
- tecleandor 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, is that the internal ports or the ones in the usb-c expansion bays? Also, where did you buy your laptop ? I know they found some hinges out of spec mid 2022 and where sending replacements to the users ( https://community.frame.work/t/explainer-lid-rigidity-hinge-force-the-cnc-top-cover-and-the-new-4-0kg-hinge-kit/19157 https://community.frame.work/t/explainer-lid-rigidity-hinge-... )
- 83457 3y ago
  Have you spoken to support about the issue? Sounds like an uncommon problem and could be linked to a single part failing. The hinge is certainly flimsy.
  - mkozlows 3y ago
    The hinge _was_ light on the old ones (deliberately, they wanted it to be easy to open with one hand), but after a lot of feedback like this, they went with a heavier one. I have a 12th gen and a 13th gen (one is my wife's), and the new one has a stiffer hinge that doesn't move if you aggressively move the laptop. Because it's Framework, you can of course buy the heavier hinge and put it on the older models; I haven't, because it's not a problem for me, but if it's one for you, it's a fix you can do cheaply.
linza 3y ago
Not convinced yet of AMD an Linux for mobile devices. Just sent back a T14s Gen 4 with Ryzen I wait for a long time because of power/stability issues (S2idle, sleep+wakeup problems, GPU, WiFi, ...). I really hope AMD gets quality on par with Intel in this space. Maybe Framework did a better job than Lenovo, but I'm done experimenting for (going X1 Gen 11 now).
- tlhunter 3y ago
  My T14s AMD Gen 1 has been rock solid with Linux
  - benoliver999 3y ago
    I have a T495 and it's fine.
- rjh29 3y ago
  Both Gen 1 and Gen 3 AMD have been extremely stable with good battery life. The Gen 4 is new so it might take a few months for the kernel team to work out all of the bugs. The X1 Gen 11 is a very premium machine but compared to the T series it's very expensive, and the CPU is underclocked.
  - sva_ 3y ago
    > The X1 Gen 11 is a very premium machine but compared to the T series it's very expensive Out of curiousity I set up a machine with max specs i7-1370p, 64GB RAM, 2.8K OLED; and the price came out to be $1685. Doesn't seem unreasonably expensive if you wait for a sale.
    - rjh29 3y ago
      Fair enough, it's almost double that in the UK.
      - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
jfim 3y ago
For those that would want a dedicated GPU, the 16 inch model has an expansion bay that allows putting in a Radeon GPU.
yread 3y ago
I don't like that the keyboard layout isnt customizable. Not everyone likes not having dedicated pgup pgdn buttons
- dmm 3y ago
  You can use ectool to swap keys around: https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-controller/12846 https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-contro... Someone changed their keyboard to colemak using this technique: https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-layout-in-hardware-to-colemak/14174 https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-layout-in...
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Interesting, looks like it is the same guy from the "dunk on our" Windows Terminal team. :D
    - wierd-eye-loser 3y ago
      [dead]
  - stavros 3y ago
    Oooh thank you for this! I've been struggling with making my Caps Lock into Ctrl/Esc.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      That's a super weird remap.
      - stavros 3y ago
        Why? Plenty of people make it into either Ctrl or Esc, why not both?
        3y ago
hamandcheese 3y ago
It's very interesting and surprising that battery life is worse than Intel. I wonder if this will get any better with driver/firmware updates?
- Leimi 3y ago
  yeah it's surprising, notebookcheck also has benchmarks and the results go in favor of amd.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  I wouldn't count on it. My 12th generation Intel Framework has godawful battery life. Framework has apparently been beta testing a BIOS update since 2022 that will improve it (and nrp told me here on HN that it's still being worked on as of 6 months ago)... but it's not here yet. In the mean time they've released a ton of new products and locked the 12th Gen BIOS threads on their forum (ironically, after talking about how they'll try to do a better job communicating the status of firmware updates). I strongly suggest that if you buy one, you base your decision on the hardware and software as they are today, not on future improvements that may never come. If you're not willing to accept warts like poor battery life and nonfunctional brightness keys, you're better off getting a laptop that doesn't have those issues.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  does the battery vary on windows vs linux?
Leimi 3y ago
Framework is really appealing as thinkpads get more and more soldered everywhere. And pricing is surprisingly ok, especially if you target 64gb of RAM and a big ssd that you buy on your own and install yourself. You can almost buy 3 amd framework with those specs for one macbook pro. Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops.
- diggan 3y ago
  > Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops. I guess in theory you would be able to manufacture it yourself, if the specification for the chassi is available publicly (which I guess it should as that's their whole shtick?).
  - CuriousCosmic 3y ago
    You definitely could. All the details are available on the FrameworkComputer github org and you could either use what they have as a basis for a chassis or design your own custom chassis that fits the framework parts. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13
- rjh29 3y ago
  I want one but it's not quite there yet for me, still 50% more expensive than a thinkpad (let alone a refurb one, which is arguably better for the environment than buying a framework) and it falls behind on keyboard, trackpad, chassis materials and number of ports. They are doing amazing work but it needs a few more iterations. The chassis is made of much cheaper materials, it does not look cheap but it won't withstand the abuse of a thinkpad t series or similar.
  - mkozlows 3y ago
    I don't agree. I've owned a ThinkPad T and currently have a Framework. I'd give the build quality edge to the Framework, even without the repairability (which is obviously better).
grecy 3y ago
Hmm, the battery life comparison graph doesn't show the M2 Macbook, but all the other ones do. How does the battery life compare to the M2 Macbook?
- _lvbh 3y ago
  Can’t compare. Apple is way too ahead on that front. If only they would allow me to run Linux on their devices…
  - ZekeSulastin 3y ago
    I mean, the entire reason the Asahi team are able to do what they do is because Apple isn’t stopping them at all (in the context of laptops/Mac Minis at least). It’s just that they’re not doing anything to help them except for maintaining the ability to boot a different OS.
  - seszett 3y ago
    They do allow it, it works fine unless you need one of the not yet implemented features (HDMI out, webcam and sound mostly, although the latter can be enabled at your own risks).
  - grecy 3y ago
    > Can’t compare. Apple is way too ahead on that front What do you mean? The whole point of a comparison is to show what is better in what categories. If one was WAY ahead in performance or price that would be heavily talked about and graphed and compared. It's an important point that absolutely should be compared.
- MegaDeKay 3y ago
  This was answered by the Ars Staff in the comments. > Answered your own question. There really aren't good actively developed cross-platform battery life tests available, at all. And rolling and maintaining my own, especially one that's in any way indicative of real-world performance, isn't something I have the resources to do (or the authority to make anyone else on staff use, honestly). https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/review-framework-laptop-finally-gets-an-amd-ryzen-config%E2%80%94and-it%E2%80%99s-pretty-good.1496179/post-42241233 https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/review-framework-lapto...
ar_lan 3y ago
Holy moly. A Ryzen 5 on the 13" with 1 TB SN850x SSD and 32GB RAM is ~$1250. That is insane to me. If I get laid off anytime soon I'm ordering this immediately.
- thekombustor 3y ago
  I'm not sure I exactly follow your logic - do you think that price is insane(ly high)? or insane(ly low)? If it's high, why would you want to order it when you get laid off?
  - ar_lan 3y ago
    It's low compared to Apple (which is the only comparison I'm making). The cheapest I can find that is comparable is an M1 Macbook Air which, for the same price point, comes with 16gb RAM + 256gb storage, or an M2 Macbook Pro w/ 8gb RAM. "Insanely low" is definitely an exaggeration but in the modern day this just seems pretty reasonable for what appears to be decent specs - plus I just really like Framework's model.
    - kcb 3y ago
      Apple, where NAND flash and RAM costs are stuck in 2013.
      - neurostimulant 3y ago
        Why though? Are they using higher endurance NAND with better controller?
        wmf 3y ago
        Nope, Apple just likes profit.
  - endorphine 3y ago
    Not parent poster but my reason is that I use my job's workstation as my personal laptop as well; so as to avoid getting yet another laptop (minimalism and all that).
aljgz 3y ago
I'm using a Framework laptop since November 2021, as my everyday laptop. I don't treat my laptop with too much care. It has been working really well. I also have an M1 MBP, and an xps 13. They both feel more solid, but I don't care. I hate the UX in macos, and I don't like how I'm basically stuck with my choices of ram, hdd, and ports. My only major problem with the framework laptop was the stupid Intel thermal throttling. If only Intel had decided to apply the throttling gradually as the cpu gets closer to the limits (instead of working full speed and then suddenly drop to 400Mhz or even 200 if it reaches a certain temperature, they could lower the max speed over a range of 2-3 degrees, that would work perfectly well: the cpu would settle on a slightly lower frequency than max, and no one would notice, except benchmarks, which were probably the only thing that Intel cared about). My desktop is based on AMD. I'm much happier. Even with an Nvidia GPU and Linux, I'm doing amazingly well. Whenever I really need to get a new laptop, Framework with an AMD cpu is my #1 choice. It does not hurt if they manage to add the external GPU support to the 13" version by that time :D. That would be the ultimate laptop. I'll probably even sell my $6000 desktop. For now, I prefer not to carry a larger laptop.
INTPenis 3y ago
Very happy to hear that I have some good options when my current Thinkpad finally retires. But I won't replace a perfectly good computer just for the sake of it. Got a Thinkpad L13 with Ryzen 5 pro right now. Cheap, but it does the job. And best of all, no qualcomm wifi chipset. Mediatek, it's not intel but it works. All USB-c, even 4G and smartcard slot. Funny but the L13 has pretty much the same cons. Battery life is meh, and fans are noisy when I play games on it. It doesn't matter, it's enough battery for a 4 hour work session on the go, which is more than I need before I need a break. And when I game I have the sound turned up anyways.
- bhasi 3y ago
  What's the issue with Qualcomm's WiFi card?
  - INTPenis 3y ago
    Linux driver sucks. I accidentally got one with my last computer and it had weak signal, intermittent disconnecting, bluetooth interference, just overall crap. In general the Intel wifi driver is the best but you never see an Intel wifi card with a Ryzen CPU. So mediatek was the best I could find.
dogas 3y ago
Interesting to see their test indicating battery life is worse than the Intel 13th gen variant. Notebookcheck's result[1] was vastly different: > Runtimes are longer than the Intel-based configurations by significant margins due to the lower power consumption levels mentioned above. We're able to browse the web for over 3 hours longer on our AMD model versus the Core i7-1370P model when both are set to Balanced mode and 150 nit brightness. [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Ryzen-7-7840U-review-So-much-better-than-the-Intel-version.756613.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Ryzen-7-...
- sva_ 3y ago
  I wonder what magic gets them more than 12 hours out of a 61Wh battery when the average idle power usage is already 6.5w.
  - PrefersAwkward 3y ago
    [dead]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- soulnothing 3y ago
  There was a note on Reddit that the ports / expansion cards were in the wrong way to maximize power efficiency. USB c in back two, USB a in the front. Link to official comment https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/16ytxjd/comment/k3ar79v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/16ytxjd/comment/... Direct to knowledge base https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/expansion-card-functionality-on-framework-laptop-13-amd-ryzen-7040-series-SkrVx7gAh https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/expansion-card-functi...
  - invalidator 3y ago
    That's an interesting quirk! I thought they were all just USB-C ports internally. Do you know why this matters?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 3y ago
Yeah, ordered one relatively early and have been waiting a long time. Wish these new platform schedules were better aligned to the school year. :-/ Been wanting to get away from Intel for a while but seeing how much better the gen 13 iCPUs battery life is, sort of reconsidering. Must have finally found a way to reduce power draw. The reduction in port flexibility partially negates the whole idea, which was a bit of a gimmick in the first place. Oh well, at least the ports are protected from damage. Linux support is often good but AFAIK they still don't ship it from the factory, making it second-class for regular folks. 2023 and still no mention of ECC RAM! Still not even an option! All in all I like our Frameworks but the company and products still need to grow a bit.
ploxiln 3y ago
I pre-ordered this, 2nd batch, and have been awaiting the charge/shipping confirmation (which was originally scheduled to be last month, some more delay is understandable, but kinda annoying that they didn't communicate more about updated expected shipping window for batches 2+). Browsing their forums, I'm a little disheartened to see that it appears that the Intel 12th gen model has yet to get a stable firmware update - there was a beta bios released last December, windows installer only, and it often fails, and at that point they seem to have just gotten stuck. I totally understand not being able to fix some things that some demanding users keep yelling about, but not being able to make any stable release with any fixes is ... a bit scary. Not releasing the stand-alone EFI or self-booting firmware-update installer variant first is also a head-scratcher. I really had the opposite impression before I recently started digging into their forums. The Intel 11th gen model seems to have gotten a few good firmware updates. They had this whole blog post about how they updated the 12th gen firmware for full Thunderbolt certification of the usb-c ports. ... but that's the update that they can't actually get a stable release of, for over 9 months now ... I'm still rooting for them, and hoping this is just one speed-bump. Links: https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06-beta/25726 https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06... https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptops-are-now-thunderbolt-4-certified https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptops-are-now-thunderbol...
- Talinx 3y ago
  They sent out an e mail an hour ago, batch 2 shipments starting later in October.
albertgoeswoof 3y ago
Are the s3 sleep issues on Linux fixed with this build? From previous reviews the intel builds were losing 30-40% overnight. I want to be able to shut the lid, and open it up a few days later, with instant start, with only a few % off the battery. My Macbook can do this, but it’s not Linux, and not a framework
Strs2FillMyDrms 3y ago
As LL/SC type architectures get more and more widespread, I am wondering all the novel ways in which programmers may discover new "anomalies" with the old memory model rules and constraints. speculative execution combined with relaxed semantics... and now LL/SC widespread bubbleless cache exclusiveness acquirement? In all honestly mathematical operations are still better performed by LOCK prefixed architectures since there is no reason to go to the assembler level to re-read the cache... if all you're going to be doing is perform a mathematical operation. LL/SC is good for displays/publishing operations (losers win all) ... not for graphics or mathematical ops.
daft_pink 3y ago
How about an nvidia gpu config?
- daft_pink 3y ago
  Do people really not want an nvidia gpu config and are totally happy and satisfied with amd gpus?

171 points by saltysalt 3y ago

I like the idea of replaceable and upgradable parts. But I would be totally convinced this platform is also a viable ecosystem if parts were also sourced by suppliers competing with Framework and everyone is profitable/sustainable. Wouldn't that be great?!

moelf 3y ago
nothing is stopping others from selling "Framework-compatible parts", the CAD for all bays, expansion bays, etc. are open source https://github.com/FrameworkComputer https://github.com/FrameworkComputer
- pipo234 3y ago
  Permission is one. (A pretty important one, at that.) A second is funding, the prospect of becoming profitable. This hurdle, Framework seems to have taken (for now), but it also seems to be stopping competitors (for now). Would be great if something grew from hobbyist / enthusiasts.
  - Moto7451 3y ago
    Can you elaborate on the permission comment? The designs in their github allow commercial use with attribution. They even link to a Google form for submitting your product to their marketplace. Is there a submarine restriction somewhere?
    - pipo234 3y ago
      Ehrm. Yes, there is permission. I did not say it imply that there is a restriction there, or did I?! Just meant that so far, the permission has not led to a thriving ecosystem. So beyond permission there must be factors. Like access to money. Not at all frameworks fault, of course. I was trying to argue from perspective of potential competitor what would be holding them back.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        > Ehrm. Yes, there is permission. I did not say it imply that there is a restriction there, or did I?! Yes, you definitely did. You replied "Permission is one." to "Nothing is stopping".
        repelsteeltje 3y ago
        I think he meant it like "okay, yes, permission is one... but also consider..." That's how I read it first time.
      - tlhunter 3y ago
        Once enough people buy frameworks you'll be able to find cheap Chinese components on Amazon.
  - delfinom 3y ago
    >Would be great if something grew from hobbyist / enthusiasts. Making PCBs to support modern x86 and even high-end ARM CPUs with DDR5 RAM and also PCI-express is beyond the skillset of a vast majority of hobbyist and enthusiasts. It gets so so far up the creek of high frequency signal engineering under electrical engineering. It's not impossible, just very time consuming and costly (between equipment required for testing and PCB manufacturing). But yea all the other stuff in a framework could get hobbyists and enthusiasts making their own elements like the expansion cards and keyboard significantly more easily if there was a need for it.
    - jdsully 3y ago
      I did a DDR3 layout, sure there's a lot to think about if you want it to work in extreme temperatures or with lots of EMI. But for hobbyist use its essentially get the right trace width for the PCB material using an online impedance calculator, and then length match and match the count of vias for all your traces of the same bus and don't exceed the length restrictions. Don't forget to have a good ground plane. This will work 99% of the time. Its time consuming and annoying but not rocket science.
  - wierd-eye-loser 3y ago
    [dead]
_lvbh 3y ago
Framework doesn’t ship to China yet and when I got mine shipped via a third party, the customs stole some parts claiming that the laptop lacked certification. Once it’s open to the Chinese market, tons of cheap and low quality parts will flood the market

opine-at-random 3y ago

I own a framework, and 3/4 of the ports are failing. I shilled this machine hard when I got it, but now I have dubious connections to my ext-monitor and my microphone. Sometimes when I'm moving files to-from my SSD I have intermittent failures. Also the hinge that it comes with is fucking atrocious. I really wanted to love this $1500 product, but frankly; I'm just going to resuscitate my thinkpad, and get my work to provide a desktop and use x11 forwarding on it.

jackmott42 3y ago
I own a framework, one of the early ones from launch. All of the ports are working. My SSD has no problems, and the hinge has been fine for us, but they upgraded it after launch so newer ones should be better.
tecleandor 3y ago
Out of curiosity, is that the internal ports or the ones in the usb-c expansion bays? Also, where did you buy your laptop ? I know they found some hinges out of spec mid 2022 and where sending replacements to the users ( https://community.frame.work/t/explainer-lid-rigidity-hinge-force-the-cnc-top-cover-and-the-new-4-0kg-hinge-kit/19157 https://community.frame.work/t/explainer-lid-rigidity-hinge-... )
83457 3y ago
Have you spoken to support about the issue? Sounds like an uncommon problem and could be linked to a single part failing. The hinge is certainly flimsy.
- mkozlows 3y ago
  The hinge _was_ light on the old ones (deliberately, they wanted it to be easy to open with one hand), but after a lot of feedback like this, they went with a heavier one. I have a 12th gen and a 13th gen (one is my wife's), and the new one has a stiffer hinge that doesn't move if you aggressively move the laptop. Because it's Framework, you can of course buy the heavier hinge and put it on the older models; I haven't, because it's not a problem for me, but if it's one for you, it's a fix you can do cheaply.

linza 3y ago

Not convinced yet of AMD an Linux for mobile devices. Just sent back a T14s Gen 4 with Ryzen I wait for a long time because of power/stability issues (S2idle, sleep+wakeup problems, GPU, WiFi, ...). I really hope AMD gets quality on par with Intel in this space. Maybe Framework did a better job than Lenovo, but I'm done experimenting for (going X1 Gen 11 now).

tlhunter 3y ago
My T14s AMD Gen 1 has been rock solid with Linux
- benoliver999 3y ago
  I have a T495 and it's fine.
rjh29 3y ago
Both Gen 1 and Gen 3 AMD have been extremely stable with good battery life. The Gen 4 is new so it might take a few months for the kernel team to work out all of the bugs. The X1 Gen 11 is a very premium machine but compared to the T series it's very expensive, and the CPU is underclocked.
- sva_ 3y ago
  > The X1 Gen 11 is a very premium machine but compared to the T series it's very expensive Out of curiousity I set up a machine with max specs i7-1370p, 64GB RAM, 2.8K OLED; and the price came out to be $1685. Doesn't seem unreasonably expensive if you wait for a sale.
  - rjh29 3y ago
    Fair enough, it's almost double that in the UK.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago

jfim 3y ago

For those that would want a dedicated GPU, the 16 inch model has an expansion bay that allows putting in a Radeon GPU.

yread 3y ago

I don't like that the keyboard layout isnt customizable. Not everyone likes not having dedicated pgup pgdn buttons

dmm 3y ago
You can use ectool to swap keys around: https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-controller/12846 https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-contro... Someone changed their keyboard to colemak using this technique: https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-layout-in-hardware-to-colemak/14174 https://community.frame.work/t/changed-my-keyboard-layout-in...
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  Interesting, looks like it is the same guy from the "dunk on our" Windows Terminal team. :D
  - wierd-eye-loser 3y ago
    [dead]
- stavros 3y ago
  Oooh thank you for this! I've been struggling with making my Caps Lock into Ctrl/Esc.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    That's a super weird remap.
    - stavros 3y ago
      Why? Plenty of people make it into either Ctrl or Esc, why not both?
      - 3y ago

hamandcheese 3y ago

It's very interesting and surprising that battery life is worse than Intel. I wonder if this will get any better with driver/firmware updates?

Leimi 3y ago
yeah it's surprising, notebookcheck also has benchmarks and the results go in favor of amd.
Rebelgecko 3y ago
I wouldn't count on it. My 12th generation Intel Framework has godawful battery life. Framework has apparently been beta testing a BIOS update since 2022 that will improve it (and nrp told me here on HN that it's still being worked on as of 6 months ago)... but it's not here yet. In the mean time they've released a ton of new products and locked the 12th Gen BIOS threads on their forum (ironically, after talking about how they'll try to do a better job communicating the status of firmware updates). I strongly suggest that if you buy one, you base your decision on the hardware and software as they are today, not on future improvements that may never come. If you're not willing to accept warts like poor battery life and nonfunctional brightness keys, you're better off getting a laptop that doesn't have those issues.
moneywoes 3y ago
does the battery vary on windows vs linux?

Leimi 3y ago

Framework is really appealing as thinkpads get more and more soldered everywhere. And pricing is surprisingly ok, especially if you target 64gb of RAM and a big ssd that you buy on your own and install yourself. You can almost buy 3 amd framework with those specs for one macbook pro. Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops.

diggan 3y ago
> Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops. I guess in theory you would be able to manufacture it yourself, if the specification for the chassi is available publicly (which I guess it should as that's their whole shtick?).
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  You definitely could. All the details are available on the FrameworkComputer github org and you could either use what they have as a basis for a chassis or design your own custom chassis that fits the framework parts. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13
rjh29 3y ago
I want one but it's not quite there yet for me, still 50% more expensive than a thinkpad (let alone a refurb one, which is arguably better for the environment than buying a framework) and it falls behind on keyboard, trackpad, chassis materials and number of ports. They are doing amazing work but it needs a few more iterations. The chassis is made of much cheaper materials, it does not look cheap but it won't withstand the abuse of a thinkpad t series or similar.
- mkozlows 3y ago
  I don't agree. I've owned a ThinkPad T and currently have a Framework. I'd give the build quality edge to the Framework, even without the repairability (which is obviously better).

grecy 3y ago

Hmm, the battery life comparison graph doesn't show the M2 Macbook, but all the other ones do. How does the battery life compare to the M2 Macbook?

_lvbh 3y ago
Can’t compare. Apple is way too ahead on that front. If only they would allow me to run Linux on their devices…
- ZekeSulastin 3y ago
  I mean, the entire reason the Asahi team are able to do what they do is because Apple isn’t stopping them at all (in the context of laptops/Mac Minis at least). It’s just that they’re not doing anything to help them except for maintaining the ability to boot a different OS.
- seszett 3y ago
  They do allow it, it works fine unless you need one of the not yet implemented features (HDMI out, webcam and sound mostly, although the latter can be enabled at your own risks).
- grecy 3y ago
  > Can’t compare. Apple is way too ahead on that front What do you mean? The whole point of a comparison is to show what is better in what categories. If one was WAY ahead in performance or price that would be heavily talked about and graphed and compared. It's an important point that absolutely should be compared.
MegaDeKay 3y ago
This was answered by the Ars Staff in the comments. > Answered your own question. There really aren't good actively developed cross-platform battery life tests available, at all. And rolling and maintaining my own, especially one that's in any way indicative of real-world performance, isn't something I have the resources to do (or the authority to make anyone else on staff use, honestly). https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/review-framework-laptop-finally-gets-an-amd-ryzen-config%E2%80%94and-it%E2%80%99s-pretty-good.1496179/post-42241233 https://arstechnica.com/civis/threads/review-framework-lapto...

ar_lan 3y ago

Holy moly. A Ryzen 5 on the 13" with 1 TB SN850x SSD and 32GB RAM is ~$1250. That is insane to me. If I get laid off anytime soon I'm ordering this immediately.

thekombustor 3y ago
I'm not sure I exactly follow your logic - do you think that price is insane(ly high)? or insane(ly low)? If it's high, why would you want to order it when you get laid off?
- ar_lan 3y ago
  It's low compared to Apple (which is the only comparison I'm making). The cheapest I can find that is comparable is an M1 Macbook Air which, for the same price point, comes with 16gb RAM + 256gb storage, or an M2 Macbook Pro w/ 8gb RAM. "Insanely low" is definitely an exaggeration but in the modern day this just seems pretty reasonable for what appears to be decent specs - plus I just really like Framework's model.
  - kcb 3y ago
    Apple, where NAND flash and RAM costs are stuck in 2013.
    - neurostimulant 3y ago
      Why though? Are they using higher endurance NAND with better controller?
      - wmf 3y ago
        Nope, Apple just likes profit.
- endorphine 3y ago
  Not parent poster but my reason is that I use my job's workstation as my personal laptop as well; so as to avoid getting yet another laptop (minimalism and all that).

aljgz 3y ago

I'm using a Framework laptop since November 2021, as my everyday laptop. I don't treat my laptop with too much care. It has been working really well. I also have an M1 MBP, and an xps 13. They both feel more solid, but I don't care. I hate the UX in macos, and I don't like how I'm basically stuck with my choices of ram, hdd, and ports. My only major problem with the framework laptop was the stupid Intel thermal throttling. If only Intel had decided to apply the throttling gradually as the cpu gets closer to the limits (instead of working full speed and then suddenly drop to 400Mhz or even 200 if it reaches a certain temperature, they could lower the max speed over a range of 2-3 degrees, that would work perfectly well: the cpu would settle on a slightly lower frequency than max, and no one would notice, except benchmarks, which were probably the only thing that Intel cared about). My desktop is based on AMD. I'm much happier. Even with an Nvidia GPU and Linux, I'm doing amazingly well. Whenever I really need to get a new laptop, Framework with an AMD cpu is my #1 choice. It does not hurt if they manage to add the external GPU support to the 13" version by that time :D. That would be the ultimate laptop. I'll probably even sell my $6000 desktop. For now, I prefer not to carry a larger laptop.

INTPenis 3y ago

Very happy to hear that I have some good options when my current Thinkpad finally retires. But I won't replace a perfectly good computer just for the sake of it. Got a Thinkpad L13 with Ryzen 5 pro right now. Cheap, but it does the job. And best of all, no qualcomm wifi chipset. Mediatek, it's not intel but it works. All USB-c, even 4G and smartcard slot. Funny but the L13 has pretty much the same cons. Battery life is meh, and fans are noisy when I play games on it. It doesn't matter, it's enough battery for a 4 hour work session on the go, which is more than I need before I need a break. And when I game I have the sound turned up anyways.

bhasi 3y ago
What's the issue with Qualcomm's WiFi card?
- INTPenis 3y ago
  Linux driver sucks. I accidentally got one with my last computer and it had weak signal, intermittent disconnecting, bluetooth interference, just overall crap. In general the Intel wifi driver is the best but you never see an Intel wifi card with a Ryzen CPU. So mediatek was the best I could find.

dogas 3y ago

Interesting to see their test indicating battery life is worse than the Intel 13th gen variant. Notebookcheck's result[1] was vastly different: > Runtimes are longer than the Intel-based configurations by significant margins due to the lower power consumption levels mentioned above. We're able to browse the web for over 3 hours longer on our AMD model versus the Core i7-1370P model when both are set to Balanced mode and 150 nit brightness. [1]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Ryzen-7-7840U-review-So-much-better-than-the-Intel-version.756613.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Ryzen-7-...

sva_ 3y ago
I wonder what magic gets them more than 12 hours out of a 61Wh battery when the average idle power usage is already 6.5w.
- PrefersAwkward 3y ago
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soulnothing 3y ago
There was a note on Reddit that the ports / expansion cards were in the wrong way to maximize power efficiency. USB c in back two, USB a in the front. Link to official comment https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/16ytxjd/comment/k3ar79v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/16ytxjd/comment/... Direct to knowledge base https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/expansion-card-functionality-on-framework-laptop-13-amd-ryzen-7040-series-SkrVx7gAh https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/expansion-card-functi...
- invalidator 3y ago
  That's an interesting quirk! I thought they were all just USB-C ports internally. Do you know why this matters?

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mixmastamyk 3y ago

Yeah, ordered one relatively early and have been waiting a long time. Wish these new platform schedules were better aligned to the school year. :-/ Been wanting to get away from Intel for a while but seeing how much better the gen 13 iCPUs battery life is, sort of reconsidering. Must have finally found a way to reduce power draw. The reduction in port flexibility partially negates the whole idea, which was a bit of a gimmick in the first place. Oh well, at least the ports are protected from damage. Linux support is often good but AFAIK they still don't ship it from the factory, making it second-class for regular folks. 2023 and still no mention of ECC RAM! Still not even an option! All in all I like our Frameworks but the company and products still need to grow a bit.

ploxiln 3y ago

I pre-ordered this, 2nd batch, and have been awaiting the charge/shipping confirmation (which was originally scheduled to be last month, some more delay is understandable, but kinda annoying that they didn't communicate more about updated expected shipping window for batches 2+). Browsing their forums, I'm a little disheartened to see that it appears that the Intel 12th gen model has yet to get a stable firmware update - there was a beta bios released last December, windows installer only, and it often fails, and at that point they seem to have just gotten stuck. I totally understand not being able to fix some things that some demanding users keep yelling about, but not being able to make any stable release with any fixes is ... a bit scary. Not releasing the stand-alone EFI or self-booting firmware-update installer variant first is also a head-scratcher. I really had the opposite impression before I recently started digging into their forums. The Intel 11th gen model seems to have gotten a few good firmware updates. They had this whole blog post about how they updated the 12th gen firmware for full Thunderbolt certification of the usb-c ports. ... but that's the update that they can't actually get a stable release of, for over 9 months now ... I'm still rooting for them, and hoping this is just one speed-bump. Links: https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06-beta/25726 https://community.frame.work/t/12th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-06... https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptops-are-now-thunderbolt-4-certified https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptops-are-now-thunderbol...

Talinx 3y ago
They sent out an e mail an hour ago, batch 2 shipments starting later in October.

albertgoeswoof 3y ago

Are the s3 sleep issues on Linux fixed with this build? From previous reviews the intel builds were losing 30-40% overnight. I want to be able to shut the lid, and open it up a few days later, with instant start, with only a few % off the battery. My Macbook can do this, but it’s not Linux, and not a framework

Strs2FillMyDrms 3y ago

As LL/SC type architectures get more and more widespread, I am wondering all the novel ways in which programmers may discover new "anomalies" with the old memory model rules and constraints. speculative execution combined with relaxed semantics... and now LL/SC widespread bubbleless cache exclusiveness acquirement? In all honestly mathematical operations are still better performed by LOCK prefixed architectures since there is no reason to go to the assembler level to re-read the cache... if all you're going to be doing is perform a mathematical operation. LL/SC is good for displays/publishing operations (losers win all) ... not for graphics or mathematical ops.

daft_pink 3y ago

How about an nvidia gpu config?

daft_pink 3y ago
Do people really not want an nvidia gpu config and are totally happy and satisfied with amd gpus?