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"David Graeber: Oh, absolutely. After all, the alter-globalization movement grew out of a broad global reaction to the Washington consensus, which was never any

"David Graeber: Oh, absolutely. After all, the alter-globalization movement grew out of a broad global reaction to the Washington consensus, which was never any sort of consensus, but rather, a vision of the world forcibly imposed on the global South through the third world debt crisis. I was involved in “drop the debt” campaigns of various sorts since at least 2000. What got me interested in some of the philosophical issues I ended up ex- ploring in the book was the peculiar moral power of the notion of debts. So many oth- erwise sympathetic people, even when told of the terrible, almost unimaginably inhu- man suffering inflicted on people in the global South because of the depredations of the IMF, would still respond, “well, that’s terrible that so many children died slow and painful deaths, but still—surely one has to pay one’s debts!" https://davidgraeber.org/wp-content/uploads/debts-history-implications-and-critical-perspective.pdf https://davidgraeber.org/wp-content/uploads/debts-history-im... Edit: responded to dead comment

sickofparadox 3y ago
Of course, the US is widely known for repossessing airports[1], seaports[2], and railways[3], then displacing local workers by flying in your own people. That totally happens all the time - its just that US biased media hiding it from you. The era of this kind of lazy anti-Westernism is over, China is only out for itself, and it will drag countries into its sphere of influence any way it can. "But what about this american thing?" I don't really have the time or need to respond to the thoughts of an "American anarchist activist" which is in all likelihood a nice euphemism for foreign agent or useful idiot. [1] https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/ https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la... [2] https://saharareporters.com/2021/11/26/china-takes-over-ugandan-airport-other-countrys-assets-over-207million-loan-deal https://saharareporters.com/2021/11/26/china-takes-over-ugan... [3]https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/kenya-china-funded-railway-embroiled-in-lawsuits-and-corruption-investigations-becomes-hot-button-election-issue/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/kenya-ch...
- teachrdan 3y ago
  This is a very humorous comment for you to have made. OP posted a quote from David Graeber that precedes China's Belt-and-Road plans by years. Graeber was instead writing about the West's use of debt to further exploit the global south, and how debt has long had a supposed moral dimension that makes renegotiating it (in the literal and metaphorical sense) exceedingly difficult. As someone who sporadically did political organizing with David Graeber, I assure you he was sharply critical of US policy as it pertained to exploiting developing countries. He also happened to be a professor of anthropology at Yale and the London School of Economics. How you have determined he was a "foreign agent or useful idiot" is curious. But I know David would have found it as funny as I do.
  - username332211 3y ago
    I don't see how you can drag someone's credentials to prove he isn't a useful idiot. Malcolm Caldwell, famous for being the very embodiment of a useful idiot was a research fellow at UCL. Other defenders of the Red Khmers had even more impressive credentials. Need I remind you who was the writer of "Distortions at Fourth Hand" and "Manufacturing Consent"? By definition, all useful idiots have impressive credentials. Without credentials, they are not useful.
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      > Other defenders of the Red Khmers Are you talking about the entire Western block where in the 80 when western powers brought support to the milicia in order to piss off the Soviet Union-backed Vietnam, or what?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - vkou 3y ago
    > How you have determined he was a "foreign agent or useful idiot" is curious. That's easy. Generally speaking, anyone who is critical of empire-building is seen by that empire's apparatchiks as a "foreign agent or useful idiot." The criticism doesn't come from any position of principle, it's just us-versus-them tribalism.
bpolverini 3y ago
The Government already has a monopoly on force and steals our money under the threat of imprisonment in the form of taxation: Now that money is supposed to be allocated into risky investments for abstract, unmeasureable benefits like "soft power," for the benefit of people somewhere else? That creates resentment here. It also infantilizes the Global South. How much better would it be if we eliminated the IMF, shrank government, and lowered taxes so individuals could freely choose how to benefit the Global South via nonprofit giving? If people don't give voluntarily, why should they be compelled to give in the form of taxation? I feel like Graeber, an anarchist, would appreciate a decentralized solution like that instead of trying to handle this from the top down.
- andrepd 3y ago
  The view that "you have _your_ money and then the government takes it away from you" ignores that without the society that you are inserted in, the very concept of money would be meaningless. More accurate to say is that part of the social contract for participating in a society that enables you to """make""" that money is that you have a pay a "fee", i.e. taxes (among other things, e.g. abiding by laws which are democratically decided, etc). Society is a mutually beneficial arrangement. I agree that you should be able to "opt out" and live in a homestead way out in the forest, and that if you do so you should be exempt of taxes. But unless you live in a Kazynscki cabin, that view makes no sense.
  - oceanplexian 3y ago
    Sure, there are some beneficial things that the government does. Like roads, police, fire, regulatory agencies; all the usual things that are cited as "We live in a society" line items. But those things are a tiny minority of government spending. The VAST majority of the federal budget goes to entitlements. Another massive chunk goes to paying interest on debt because we spent money we didn't have on entitlements. An similarly large chunk goes to defense (Which you could make an argument for, except the VAST majority of which is not actually used for defense, but intervening in far away conflicts) So going back to all the "society" items, well, the roads, infrastructure electricity, basic services, police, clean water, airports; all the stuff you really need for a society: They're a tiny, minute sliver of the money the government takes from us on a regular basis. You could reduce taxes by 90% and still provide everything you need from a functional society without the parasitic drain on the economy.
nradov 3y ago
Sovereign borrowers are free to default on their debts. This is just a business decision, not a moral failing. But once they default they shouldn't expect more loans from the IMF or anyone else. The IMF was never intended to be a charity, and there are other international programs for distributing food aid to countries experiencing famine.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

sickofparadox 3y ago

Of course, the US is widely known for repossessing airports[1], seaports[2], and railways[3], then displacing local workers by flying in your own people. That totally happens all the time - its just that US biased media hiding it from you. The era of this kind of lazy anti-Westernism is over, China is only out for itself, and it will drag countries into its sphere of influence any way it can. "But what about this american thing?" I don't really have the time or need to respond to the thoughts of an "American anarchist activist" which is in all likelihood a nice euphemism for foreign agent or useful idiot. [1] https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-lanka-also-handed-over-port-to-china-to-pay-off-debt/ https://www.africanliberty.org/2018/09/10/like-zambia-sri-la... [2] https://saharareporters.com/2021/11/26/china-takes-over-ugandan-airport-other-countrys-assets-over-207million-loan-deal https://saharareporters.com/2021/11/26/china-takes-over-ugan... [3]https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/kenya-china-funded-railway-embroiled-in-lawsuits-and-corruption-investigations-becomes-hot-button-election-issue/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/kenya-ch...

teachrdan 3y ago
This is a very humorous comment for you to have made. OP posted a quote from David Graeber that precedes China's Belt-and-Road plans by years. Graeber was instead writing about the West's use of debt to further exploit the global south, and how debt has long had a supposed moral dimension that makes renegotiating it (in the literal and metaphorical sense) exceedingly difficult. As someone who sporadically did political organizing with David Graeber, I assure you he was sharply critical of US policy as it pertained to exploiting developing countries. He also happened to be a professor of anthropology at Yale and the London School of Economics. How you have determined he was a "foreign agent or useful idiot" is curious. But I know David would have found it as funny as I do.
- username332211 3y ago
  I don't see how you can drag someone's credentials to prove he isn't a useful idiot. Malcolm Caldwell, famous for being the very embodiment of a useful idiot was a research fellow at UCL. Other defenders of the Red Khmers had even more impressive credentials. Need I remind you who was the writer of "Distortions at Fourth Hand" and "Manufacturing Consent"? By definition, all useful idiots have impressive credentials. Without credentials, they are not useful.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > Other defenders of the Red Khmers Are you talking about the entire Western block where in the 80 when western powers brought support to the milicia in order to piss off the Soviet Union-backed Vietnam, or what?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- vkou 3y ago
  > How you have determined he was a "foreign agent or useful idiot" is curious. That's easy. Generally speaking, anyone who is critical of empire-building is seen by that empire's apparatchiks as a "foreign agent or useful idiot." The criticism doesn't come from any position of principle, it's just us-versus-them tribalism.

bpolverini 3y ago

The Government already has a monopoly on force and steals our money under the threat of imprisonment in the form of taxation: Now that money is supposed to be allocated into risky investments for abstract, unmeasureable benefits like "soft power," for the benefit of people somewhere else? That creates resentment here. It also infantilizes the Global South. How much better would it be if we eliminated the IMF, shrank government, and lowered taxes so individuals could freely choose how to benefit the Global South via nonprofit giving? If people don't give voluntarily, why should they be compelled to give in the form of taxation? I feel like Graeber, an anarchist, would appreciate a decentralized solution like that instead of trying to handle this from the top down.

andrepd 3y ago
The view that "you have _your_ money and then the government takes it away from you" ignores that without the society that you are inserted in, the very concept of money would be meaningless. More accurate to say is that part of the social contract for participating in a society that enables you to """make""" that money is that you have a pay a "fee", i.e. taxes (among other things, e.g. abiding by laws which are democratically decided, etc). Society is a mutually beneficial arrangement. I agree that you should be able to "opt out" and live in a homestead way out in the forest, and that if you do so you should be exempt of taxes. But unless you live in a Kazynscki cabin, that view makes no sense.
- oceanplexian 3y ago
  Sure, there are some beneficial things that the government does. Like roads, police, fire, regulatory agencies; all the usual things that are cited as "We live in a society" line items. But those things are a tiny minority of government spending. The VAST majority of the federal budget goes to entitlements. Another massive chunk goes to paying interest on debt because we spent money we didn't have on entitlements. An similarly large chunk goes to defense (Which you could make an argument for, except the VAST majority of which is not actually used for defense, but intervening in far away conflicts) So going back to all the "society" items, well, the roads, infrastructure electricity, basic services, police, clean water, airports; all the stuff you really need for a society: They're a tiny, minute sliver of the money the government takes from us on a regular basis. You could reduce taxes by 90% and still provide everything you need from a functional society without the parasitic drain on the economy.

nradov 3y ago

Sovereign borrowers are free to default on their debts. This is just a business decision, not a moral failing. But once they default they shouldn't expect more loans from the IMF or anyone else. The IMF was never intended to be a charity, and there are other international programs for distributing food aid to countries experiencing famine.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]