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The problem with those high-fertility groups is that they usually come with a lot of baggage - specifically they require belief in the made-up nonsense that ten

The problem with those high-fertility groups is that they usually come with a lot of baggage - specifically they require belief in the made-up nonsense that tends to fade away as the demographic shift advances. So, they may maintain higher fertility rates, but I'd wager more and more of their kids will break away from a religion/belief system that appears increasingly absurd and stifling as the rest of the world moves on.

influx 3y ago
Which belief system is more absurd, one which the adherents maintain or gain in population, or one which they go extinct? Which one is more fit to the environment?
- standardUser 3y ago
  If you have a point to make, feel free to make it.
- geraldwhen 3y ago
  All belief systems are equally absurd.
  - HKH2 3y ago
    Some people just don't have the time to reexamine their values. If you want society to be efficient, you're going to have to have a belief system of some sort.
  - sambazi 3y ago
    seems like a circular argument
- wizofaus 3y ago
  Sounds like one of those "having no belief system is a still a belief system" type arguments...
  - arvinsim 3y ago
    To worship is part of being human. If people don't find anything else worthy of worship, then they simply worship themselves.
    - wizofaus 3y ago
      "To worship is part of being human." Proof for that? I don't deny is has been a big part of much of human existence over the millennia, but there's zero evidence it's a necessary part of our very being.
      - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
        How would you design experiments to test its necessity?
        wizofaus 3y ago
        Why would you need to? I've never worshipped anything in my life as far as I can tell, yet I'm pretty sure I'm a functioning human being.
        CatWChainsaw 3y ago
        It's not about need, it's about ambition, a trait often lauded here.
      - pauldenton 3y ago
        the proof is that spiritualism and religion have independently formed in every culture and every far flung corner on Earth. Easter Island had religion. Inuit had religion. Australian natives had religion. If humans ever settled on Antarctica they would have religion.
        defrost 3y ago
        [dead]
jlos 3y ago
>> I'd wager more and more of their kids will break away from a religion/belief system that appears increasingly absurd and stifling as the rest of the world moves on. In the west, increase in secularity has only affected the groups of people who would've been nominally religious (i.e. religious in name only). People who attend religious services on a weekly basis (a much better measure of religiosity) has stayed consistent. This is still a notable shift in religious demographic, just not the kind your portraying. Further, outside the west, much of the world has kept or has increased their religiosity as they modernized. The belief that modernism produces secularism was abandoned by sociologists of religion some time ago after it was evidentially false (E.g. India is the most religious country in the world and still a modern state). The fact you can't see value in religious systems adhered to by billions of people over thousands of years speaks less to those systems than your lack of understanding them.
- ForHackernews 3y ago
  > India is the most religious country in the world and still a modern state. Have you been to India? It's a wonderful, fascinating place but it is emphatically not a modern, developed nation the way France or Japan is.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Much of the world not including China right? Even if we consider highly religious sub populations (and Uighurs have never been hardcore Muslims even during the Qing dynasty), the entire country is trending toward spiritual but non-religious, just like Japan. Much SEA is similar until maybe Indonesia and the Philippines. Buddhism is setup very much in the form of spiritualism rather than strict religious practice.
- mlyle 3y ago
  > In the west, increase in secularity has only affected the groups of people who would've been nominally religious (i.e. religious in name only). People who attend religious services on a weekly basis (a much better measure of religiosity) has stayed consistent. False: It was 50% in the US 70 years ago. It's about 30% now. This is a decline of 20% in absolute terms, or a 40% decline in relative terms. Weekly church attendance is under 15% in basically all of Western Europe -- https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment-varies-by-country-among-people-of-all-ages/pf-06-13-18_religiouscommitment-03-08/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/how-religiou... (note that this show US attendance at 36%, but it's also comprised of data 6-15 years old). It's probably lower than this-- research indicates that people overstate their church attendance in surveys; https://www.religion-online.org/article/did-you-really-go-to-church-this-week-behind-the-poll-data/ https://www.religion-online.org/article/did-you-really-go-to... > The fact you can't see value in religious systems adhered to by billions of people over thousands of years speaks less to those systems than your lack of understanding them. Plenty of things were done by huge fractions of the world population for thousands of years that deserve questioning. Authoritarianism; oppression of minorities and women; routine warfare with neighboring groups; belief in witch doctors; pooping near water wells, etc. This line of argument isn't a very good one.
datavirtue 3y ago
I think these religions and belief systems are adapting to a more sensible take, but I think the dogma demanding children will be scuttled. The humanist/Jesus/profit teachings will become rectified against human experience and philosophies of consciousness and drift toward core messages of peace and community while the dogma and rhetoric of pulpit interpretations of sin and judgement should subside. I think the identity will remain but the substance will change. There are some really cool discussions on YouTube about the definition of God and the nature of consciousness that are quite compelling and unifying.
- NateEag 3y ago
  Anyone who actually reads the New Testament closely will see that modern American evangelicalism is not especially closely related to what those texts actually say. (Obvious example: the texts don't claim "inerrancy" anywhere.) It follows that Christianity evolved into its current form from the NT as its starting point. Further evolutions and shifts should be expected (though some of them may look like explorations of very ancient paths not taken, like a drift away from inerrantist literalism and back towards things like Origen's opinion that the NT writers may well have made factual errors).
anon291 3y ago
> The problem with those high-fertility groups is that they usually come with a lot of baggage - specifically they require belief in the made-up nonsense that tends to fade away as the demographic shift advances. So, they may maintain higher fertility rates, but I'd wager more and more of their kids will break away from a religion/belief system that appears increasingly absurd and stifling as the rest of the world moves on. Honestly... I've simply not seen this. There are many religious people in prominent positions, you just don't know about it. In my fairly traditional catholic parish, we have families where mom and dad are catholic, their five kids are catholic, and their 40 + grandchildren are as well (some are now adults and having kids of their own). And all successful, doctors, nurses, engineers, etc. The idea that religious == stupid or baggage or whatever is simply at odds with history. You're conflating the Duggars with otherwise normal people that just have different views.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  You’ve responded to a quote which is largely stating that high fertility religious groups won’t spawn rigidly religious off spring by arguing with some anecdata that religious folks aren’t always stupid.
  - taxikabs 3y ago
    I think they're working with the premise that intellectuals are less likely to be as religious or more likely to think for themselves, leading to breaking off
- standardUser 3y ago
  "...you just don't know about it" Oh, I see, ignore the data and instead believe in your hidden truth. Got it. Thanks for the help, all this time I've been going around making reasonable conclusions based on evidence, like an idiot.
SergeAx 3y ago
Early life indoctrination is working and will keep working, especially with such an established institutions as world religions. Don't try to fool yourself.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  How do you explain the fall of religion in places like Europe? It's not like early life indoctrination has been outlawed or even generally accepted as being wrong.
  - SergeAx 3y ago
    That's what I thought myself about after I posted the comment. Turns out it was a lack of faith in those whose job was to indoctrinate. Same happened in Soviet Union in 60s, and the very next generation became immune.
- standardUser 3y ago
  All the evidence points to the opposite. If you have some evidence or a series of logical statements, I will listen. But I'm not going to take your word for it when it directly contradicts all evidence.
  - SergeAx 3y ago
    Maybe you then care to bring your evidence?
    - standardUser 3y ago
      A few recent surveys that show a significant, increasing and undeniable reduction in religiosity in the United States, particularly among the young people you claim are being successfully indoctrinated... "In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace" https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decli... "Religion and Congregations in a Time of Social and Political Upheaval" https://www.prri.org/research/religion-and-congregations-in-a-time-of-social-and-political-upheaval/ https://www.prri.org/research/religion-and-congregations-in-... "U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time" https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-...

influx 3y ago

Which belief system is more absurd, one which the adherents maintain or gain in population, or one which they go extinct? Which one is more fit to the environment?

standardUser 3y ago
If you have a point to make, feel free to make it.
geraldwhen 3y ago
All belief systems are equally absurd.
- HKH2 3y ago
  Some people just don't have the time to reexamine their values. If you want society to be efficient, you're going to have to have a belief system of some sort.
- sambazi 3y ago
  seems like a circular argument
wizofaus 3y ago
Sounds like one of those "having no belief system is a still a belief system" type arguments...
- arvinsim 3y ago
  To worship is part of being human. If people don't find anything else worthy of worship, then they simply worship themselves.
  - wizofaus 3y ago
    "To worship is part of being human." Proof for that? I don't deny is has been a big part of much of human existence over the millennia, but there's zero evidence it's a necessary part of our very being.
    - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
      How would you design experiments to test its necessity?
      - wizofaus 3y ago
        Why would you need to? I've never worshipped anything in my life as far as I can tell, yet I'm pretty sure I'm a functioning human being.
        CatWChainsaw 3y ago
        It's not about need, it's about ambition, a trait often lauded here.
    - pauldenton 3y ago
      the proof is that spiritualism and religion have independently formed in every culture and every far flung corner on Earth. Easter Island had religion. Inuit had religion. Australian natives had religion. If humans ever settled on Antarctica they would have religion.
      - defrost 3y ago
        [dead]

jlos 3y ago

>> I'd wager more and more of their kids will break away from a religion/belief system that appears increasingly absurd and stifling as the rest of the world moves on. In the west, increase in secularity has only affected the groups of people who would've been nominally religious (i.e. religious in name only). People who attend religious services on a weekly basis (a much better measure of religiosity) has stayed consistent. This is still a notable shift in religious demographic, just not the kind your portraying. Further, outside the west, much of the world has kept or has increased their religiosity as they modernized. The belief that modernism produces secularism was abandoned by sociologists of religion some time ago after it was evidentially false (E.g. India is the most religious country in the world and still a modern state). The fact you can't see value in religious systems adhered to by billions of people over thousands of years speaks less to those systems than your lack of understanding them.

ForHackernews 3y ago
> India is the most religious country in the world and still a modern state. Have you been to India? It's a wonderful, fascinating place but it is emphatically not a modern, developed nation the way France or Japan is.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Much of the world not including China right? Even if we consider highly religious sub populations (and Uighurs have never been hardcore Muslims even during the Qing dynasty), the entire country is trending toward spiritual but non-religious, just like Japan. Much SEA is similar until maybe Indonesia and the Philippines. Buddhism is setup very much in the form of spiritualism rather than strict religious practice.
mlyle 3y ago
> In the west, increase in secularity has only affected the groups of people who would've been nominally religious (i.e. religious in name only). People who attend religious services on a weekly basis (a much better measure of religiosity) has stayed consistent. False: It was 50% in the US 70 years ago. It's about 30% now. This is a decline of 20% in absolute terms, or a 40% decline in relative terms. Weekly church attendance is under 15% in basically all of Western Europe -- https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/how-religious-commitment-varies-by-country-among-people-of-all-ages/pf-06-13-18_religiouscommitment-03-08/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/how-religiou... (note that this show US attendance at 36%, but it's also comprised of data 6-15 years old). It's probably lower than this-- research indicates that people overstate their church attendance in surveys; https://www.religion-online.org/article/did-you-really-go-to-church-this-week-behind-the-poll-data/ https://www.religion-online.org/article/did-you-really-go-to... > The fact you can't see value in religious systems adhered to by billions of people over thousands of years speaks less to those systems than your lack of understanding them. Plenty of things were done by huge fractions of the world population for thousands of years that deserve questioning. Authoritarianism; oppression of minorities and women; routine warfare with neighboring groups; belief in witch doctors; pooping near water wells, etc. This line of argument isn't a very good one.

datavirtue 3y ago

I think these religions and belief systems are adapting to a more sensible take, but I think the dogma demanding children will be scuttled. The humanist/Jesus/profit teachings will become rectified against human experience and philosophies of consciousness and drift toward core messages of peace and community while the dogma and rhetoric of pulpit interpretations of sin and judgement should subside. I think the identity will remain but the substance will change. There are some really cool discussions on YouTube about the definition of God and the nature of consciousness that are quite compelling and unifying.

NateEag 3y ago
Anyone who actually reads the New Testament closely will see that modern American evangelicalism is not especially closely related to what those texts actually say. (Obvious example: the texts don't claim "inerrancy" anywhere.) It follows that Christianity evolved into its current form from the NT as its starting point. Further evolutions and shifts should be expected (though some of them may look like explorations of very ancient paths not taken, like a drift away from inerrantist literalism and back towards things like Origen's opinion that the NT writers may well have made factual errors).

anon291 3y ago

> The problem with those high-fertility groups is that they usually come with a lot of baggage - specifically they require belief in the made-up nonsense that tends to fade away as the demographic shift advances. So, they may maintain higher fertility rates, but I'd wager more and more of their kids will break away from a religion/belief system that appears increasingly absurd and stifling as the rest of the world moves on. Honestly... I've simply not seen this. There are many religious people in prominent positions, you just don't know about it. In my fairly traditional catholic parish, we have families where mom and dad are catholic, their five kids are catholic, and their 40 + grandchildren are as well (some are now adults and having kids of their own). And all successful, doctors, nurses, engineers, etc. The idea that religious == stupid or baggage or whatever is simply at odds with history. You're conflating the Duggars with otherwise normal people that just have different views.

jncfhnb 3y ago
You’ve responded to a quote which is largely stating that high fertility religious groups won’t spawn rigidly religious off spring by arguing with some anecdata that religious folks aren’t always stupid.
- taxikabs 3y ago
  I think they're working with the premise that intellectuals are less likely to be as religious or more likely to think for themselves, leading to breaking off
standardUser 3y ago
"...you just don't know about it" Oh, I see, ignore the data and instead believe in your hidden truth. Got it. Thanks for the help, all this time I've been going around making reasonable conclusions based on evidence, like an idiot.

SergeAx 3y ago

Early life indoctrination is working and will keep working, especially with such an established institutions as world religions. Don't try to fool yourself.

globular-toast 3y ago
How do you explain the fall of religion in places like Europe? It's not like early life indoctrination has been outlawed or even generally accepted as being wrong.
- SergeAx 3y ago
  That's what I thought myself about after I posted the comment. Turns out it was a lack of faith in those whose job was to indoctrinate. Same happened in Soviet Union in 60s, and the very next generation became immune.
standardUser 3y ago
All the evidence points to the opposite. If you have some evidence or a series of logical statements, I will listen. But I'm not going to take your word for it when it directly contradicts all evidence.
- SergeAx 3y ago
  Maybe you then care to bring your evidence?
  - standardUser 3y ago
    A few recent surveys that show a significant, increasing and undeniable reduction in religiosity in the United States, particularly among the young people you claim are being successfully indoctrinated... "In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace" https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decli... "Religion and Congregations in a Time of Social and Political Upheaval" https://www.prri.org/research/religion-and-congregations-in-a-time-of-social-and-political-upheaval/ https://www.prri.org/research/religion-and-congregations-in-... "U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time" https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-...